One of the most ignored factors of the 40SW in caliber debates

[UrbanHermit]

Caliber debates tend to be one of the most popular recurring discussion topics in handgun shooting forums. Typically, it is conventional defensive pistol rounds that are being compared, the 9mm, 45acp, 40SW, etc.

I don't know which round is "better", but I do know that the 40SW has a very specific, unique, and highly significant advantage over the competition, and I've scarcely ever seen it mentioned in the hundreds of caliber debate threads and videos I've seen over the years.

What that is is the fact that ALL 40SW FMJ ammo utilizes a flat nose design with a broad metplat. That, combined with it's relatively large diameter, means that ALL 40SW ammunition is viable defensive ammunition, not just hollow points that cost $1.25/round. With most other cartridges, including the 9mm and 45ACP, the effectiveness of their FMJ offerings, which constitute probably 80% of the ammunition floating around for these cartridges, is significantly limited by utilizing round nose bullet design, which is meaningfully inferior at creating permanent wound cavities.

So if you have a 40 and can't find your favorite HP load or can't afford it because of corona or other factors, you'll be just fine using any cheap 50 round box of range ammo you find. You could probably even kill a deer with it and get a useful blood trail. Based on what I've seen in tests, I would take 40SW FMJ over 45ACP hardball, the effectiveness of the metplat seems to overshadow the extra .05" of bullet diameter. 40SW FMJ is probably superior to any semiauto service cartridge in history prior to the development of modern hollow point technology.

I think this is easily the single most important advantage the 40SW has, yet I don't think I've ever once seen it mentioned on the internet. How odd. Maybe it's because the kinds of people who understand the effectiveness of flat nose bullets are handgun hunters who don't hang out in defensive shooting forums.

 

[JTQ]

I don't know which round is "better", but I do know that the 40SW has a very specific, unique, and highly significant advantage over the competition, and I've scarcely ever seen it mentioned in the hundreds of caliber debate threads and videos I've seen over the years.

What that is is the fact that ALL 40SW FMJ ammo utilizes a flat nose design with a broad metplat.

I think this is easily the single most important advantage the 40SW has, yet I don't think I've ever once seen it mentioned on the internet.

I'm not sure that is a big defensive advantage, but that flat nose of the .40 S&W ball ammo, that mimic's hollow point ammo shape, and that all .40 S&W pistols were designed after hollow point ammo was the common defensive round, it does mean the .40 S&W guns should feed their ammo well.

 

[Hartkopf]

It’s been discussed here within the last couple of years. Not in a 40 cal thread all it’s own but definitely considered.

I do agree that I like the flat point as a back up, last resort defensive bullet over typical round nose. Taking it further, (all the way actually) lots of people really like the sharp edge wad cutter in 44 Special.

 

[Zerodefect]

Modern 40's seem to feed every reputable brand well. It's the least tested caliber if I'm forced to switch jhp brands.

My 40, 45, reload magazines have fmj in them. I shoot my carry ammo when it gets old.

9mm is more expensive to carry, since its reload mags are all jhp.

My 40's have consistently performed well.

40 ammo seems to have less flaws in cheapo bulk ammo as well. 9, 380, seem to have the most feed issues with low quality ammo.

 

[UrbanHermit]

It’s been discussed here within the last couple of years. Not in a 40 cal thread all it’s own but definitely considered.

I do agree that I like the flat point as a back up, last resort defensive bullet over typical round nose. Taking it further, (all the way actually) lots of people really like the sharp edge wad cutter in 44 Special.

By extension, I think one of the most important advantages of revolvers compared to modern semiautomatic pistols is their ability to feed wadcutters.

Modern 40's seem to feed every reputable brand well. It's the least tested caliber if I'm forced to switch jhp brands.

My 40, 45, reload magazines have fmj in them. I shoot my carry ammo when it gets old.

9mm is more expensive to carry, since its reload mags are all jhp.

My 40's have consistently performed well.

Exactly. I've never felt comfortable carrying 9mm FMJ, because I can almost visualize the wounds from those pointy little bullets closing up and clotting when I look at them. 40FMJ is like a giant hole puncher.

 

[Zerodefect]

I used to exclusively carry 45. 40 caught my eye when it consistantly started outperforming 45.

And then I tried a Glock 35.........

 

[wiscoaster]

A valid point and strange that it never comes up in a caliber comparison. Especially valid during ammo shortages when (around here anyway as I've noticed) .40 S&W has been more commonly available.

 

[Rule3]

Gads!, I wonder how many people have been shot and died from RN FMJ 9mm ammo?
Plus all the other calibers out there.

Much to do about nothing.

 

[UrbanHermit]

Gads!, I wonder how many people have been shot and died from RN FMJ 9mm ammo?
Plus all the other calibers out there.

Much to do about nothing.

A little more than have survived, I'd wager.

A valid point and strange that it never comes up in a caliber comparison. Especially valid during ammo shortages when (around here anyway as I've noticed) .40 S&W has been more commonly available.

It also makes training and ammo rotation simpler. Just tack a paper plate somewhere, shoot your carry gun as-is, reload, and refill the empty mag when you get home.

 

[ThomasT]

If you were limited to just FMJ ammo the 40 would be the clear winner. But since 9mm is so common maybe not so much. You can buy budget grade HP ammo for the 9mm that looks to work as well as the high dollar SD hollow point rounds. There was a poster here named 5pins who did a lot of ammo test and he tested the Remington Green box 9mm HP loads and they expanded as well and rounds costing 3-4 times as much. Ammo that before the last ammo run that could be bought for $20 or less a box of 50.

I thought the 40S&W was the best compromise round ever giver to the LE community. The capacity of the 9mm and the supposed superiority of the 45acp with its fat bullet. And I see Aim Surplus has police turn in 40S&W guns back in stock. But no matching ammo. Too bad. I would like to own a 40 some day.

 

[UrbanHermit]

If you were limited to just FMJ ammo the 40 would be the clear winner. But since 9mm is so common maybe not so much. You can buy budget grade HP ammo for the 9mm that looks to work as well as the high dollar SD hollow point rounds. There was a poster here named 5pins who did a lot of ammo test and he tested the Remington Green box 9mm HP loads and they expanded as well and rounds costing 3-4 times as much. Ammo that before the last ammo run that could be bought for $20 or less a box of 50.

I thought the 40S&W was the best compromise round ever giver to the LE community. The capacity of the 9mm and the supposed superiority of the 45acp with its fat bullet. And I see Aim Surplus has police turn in 40S&W guns back in stock. But no matching ammo. Too bad. I would like to own a 40 some day.

Agreed, I've always thought the cheap hp ammo with the exposed lead tips was underrated. It's low tech but it works.

 

[1KPerDay]

A little more than have survived, I'd wager.

I’d take that bet. Regardless of bullet type. The number of people who have been shot and survived will always be greater than the number who have been shot and died.

 

[Hartkopf]

66% survival rate for the handguns last I heard.

 

[Kleanbore]

Gads!, I wonder how many people have been shot and died from RN FMJ 9mm ammo?
Plus all the other calibers out there.

Lethality is irrelevant to the objectives of self defense.

 

[UrbanHermit]

Lethality is irrelevant to the objectives of self defense.

I don't think so. If I manage to find cover or concealment, I want the threats I've shot to die of blood loss rather than just be waiting out there or looking for me forever.

 

[C-grunt]

I think the flat meplat has a slight advantage in defensive use but really it's probably more theoretical than in actual practice. Ive seen a lot of 9mm FMJ wounds and they definitely dont close up and clot. Depending on the location of the shot you sometimes do get swelling that closes off the wound at the skin, but that doesnt mean the wound isnt bleeding internally. Just like when talking about the different caliber and hollow points, the different size isnt going to change the immediate outcome of the fight. You want solid hits to major blood vessels and organs to stop the fight. A nicked organ or artery might cause loss of consciousness or death after a while, but the fight has probably been long done by that time. So for those reasons Id still stick with 9mm personally. To me the benefits of the 9mm (capacity and recoil) still outweigh the advantages of the bigger calibers, even in FMJ.

 

[Rule3]

Lethality is irrelevant to the objectives of self defense.

??

So a magic bullet (FN or HP) in a handgun will stop "the threat" better than a FMJ RN??

 

[UrbanHermit]

??

So a magic bullet (FN or HP) in a handgun will stop "the threat" better than a FMJ RN??

My theory is that HPs cause more pain and are thus more likely to trigger a psychological response. An RN slipping through you like a needle in an adrenaline fueled moment, I wonder if you would even know you've been.

 

[ThomasT]

Too bad in this day of the Single Stack 9mm there isn't a Single Stack 40 offered. If limited to 8-10 rounds I would rather have the larger round.

 

[UrbanHermit]

I think the flat meplat has a slight advantage in defensive use but really it's probably more theoretical than in actual practice. Ive seen a lot of 9mm FMJ wounds and they definitely dont close up and clot. Depending on the location of the shot you sometimes do get swelling that closes off the wound at the skin, but that doesnt mean the wound isnt bleeding internally. Just like when talking about the different caliber and hollow points, the different size isnt going to change the immediate outcome of the fight. You want solid hits to major blood vessels and organs to stop the fight. A nicked organ or artery might cause loss of consciousness or death after a while, but the fight has probably been long done by that time. So for those reasons Id still stick with 9mm personally. To me the benefits of the 9mm (capacity and recoil) still outweigh the advantages of the bigger calibers, even in FMJ.

I think a flat nose bullet will cause roughly 100% more blood loss than a RN of the same caliber. Twice as much. That's not exactly based on scientific data, just my opinion based on what I've seen in various tests and on game over the years. A HP might be a little better, but with only one hole, I wonder if vaccum pressure may not interfere with blood loss and promote clotting somewhat. I don't see purely internal bleeding as being all that efficient, you just don't have that much dead air space inside you, except the lungs. I've had severed arteries before and it's incredible how they can just sort of resume functioning as normal as soon as I'm stitched up and the blood has nowhere to go.

Too bad in this day of the Single Stack 9mm there isn't a Single Stack 40 offered. If limited to 8-10 rounds I would rather have the larger round.

I'll bet anything Glock will come out with something like the G48 but in 40 in the next few years, assuming the human race still exists.

66% survival rate for the handguns last I heard.

To me that says less about handguns and more about the people using them. I would doubt that very many teenagers in Chicago have range memberships.

 

[1KPerDay]

Too bad in this day of the Single Stack 9mm there isn't a Single Stack 40 offered. If limited to 8-10 rounds I would rather have the larger round.

https://shopkahrfirearmsgroup.com/c...nless-steel-slide-w-night-sights-ca-approved/

https://shopkahrfirearmsgroup.com/copy-of-t40-matte-stainless-steel-slide-w-white-bar-dot-sights/

https://shopkahrfirearmsgroup.com/pistols/kahr-p40-w-night-sights.asp

 

[CodeSection]

Too bad in this day of the Single Stack 9mm there isn't a Single Stack 40 offered. If limited to 8-10 rounds I would rather have the larger round.

Well, you can still find on GB a Sig P239 .40........

 

[1KPerDay]

Well, you can still find on GB a Sig P239 .40........

Or an XDs40

 

[Juiceking]

If you were limited to just FMJ ammo the 40 would be the clear winner. But since 9mm is so common maybe not so much. You can buy budget grade HP ammo for the 9mm that looks to work as well as the high dollar SD hollow point rounds. There was a poster here named 5pins who did a lot of ammo test and he tested the Remington Green box 9mm HP loads and they expanded as well and rounds costing 3-4 times as much. Ammo that before the last ammo run that could be bought for $20 or less a box of 50.

I thought the 40S&W was the best compromise round ever giver to the LE community. The capacity of the 9mm and the supposed superiority of the 45acp with its fat bullet. And I see Aim Surplus has police turn in 40S&W guns back in stock. But no matching ammo. Too bad. I would like to own a 40 some day.

Great tip about Aim Surplus. The LE trade in pistols are very accessible for the price point. I picked up my LE 40 M&P from PSA almost 2yrs ago and like it a lot. But you're right about ammo if you dont reload. Hard to find and expensive.

 

[WrongHanded]

An interesting thought about the service cartridges other than 9mm, is that they were passing the FBI requirements back in the 90's before the new bullet technology became available and got the 9mm passing.

Which means there's a very good chance that if you can't find the HST or G2 Gold Dots you prefer, any commercially available cup and core JHP you find for your .40S&W will probably perform just fine. It might not make quite such a pretty flower in gel, but it'll still perform fine because it always did.

Makes me wonder if the new bullet technology that was applied to 9mm was really applied to the other service cartridges equally. Or if the manufacturers just knocked out some new bullets that worked acceptably and stopped trying to improve upon them because they passed. Perhaps the HST and Gold Dots in .40S&W, 10mm, .357 Sig and .45ACP could have been designed to perform even better than they do, if they'd received the same R&D dedication and attention that the 9mm did to simply pass the tests reliably.