The 21 is fatter. I shoot it just as well as the smaller 17/22 but the 21 is just big enough, or my hands aren’t quite big enough, to draw as quick. Also the 21 is a little heavier. The entire combination made for a slower draw.
One of the most ignored factors of the 40SW in caliber debates
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The 21 is fatter. I shoot it just as well as the smaller 17/22 but the 21 is just big enough, or my hands aren’t quite big enough, to draw as quick. Also the 21 is a little heavier. The entire combination made for a slower draw.
JR24
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That makes sense I suppose, I have big enough hands that it’s easy to get a nice grip on the 21, the Gen 4 feel just perfect for my hands, to the point the few times I’ve pondered a commander 2011 I’ve just shot my 21, realized I shoot it as well as my much nicer 1911s in pretty much all the ways, and it’s the same size but lighter compared to the commander 2011.
mindbent
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I use a .40sw for SD because that's what caliber handgun was available at the time. I bought it from an acquaintance, SW40VE 3rd generation. When I heald it it fealt very comfortable. I've shot mostly larger calibers when I owned guns in the past so recoil wasn't a concern. I use plain winchester white box for defense ammo. I find many people in the gun community are just like some in the fishing community, gotta have the latest and greatest. I hope I'm never in a situation where I need to draw. I don't care what caliber anyone uses for self defense but bottom line is if you can't shoot it, it doesn't matter. Though I'd wrather have a .40 or bigger for SD. Something I never hear much about is muzzle energy, I want it to hit haaard. I like my .40 with a flat nose in 180g. I have no doubt that I could get the same result with a .22 it just takes more bullets. I don't care what LE carries or ballistics test results. I carry what I shoot well. I do want another 1911 .45acp but that's just for fun on the range. Not a big fan of 9mm, prefer .38spl. LE is forced to use ammo that doesn't overpenatrate, I am not. I consider the .40sw a poor mans .45. I like it therefore I'm gonna shoot it.
CodeSection
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I find it interesting when posters start changing the "goal post" when presented with objective test results or facts that contradict their postings. They start saying things like .......they want or need 18" or some other depth of penetration....that round is an outlier....etc. Lol...good for you!
The LuckyGunner lab results were based upon using the same testing methods of each caliber and when using various manufactured ammo. When it came to depth/penetration standards, they used the FBI published standard. Obviously, they measured expansion and velocity. I believe the whole purpose of their evaluations was to guide the reader to objective measurements so the reader can apply that information to their weapon and situation.
It is common specifically to carry "one particular brand, design, and weight of ammo".....
PH believes his meat test to be the definitive test. Again, his meat test used similar rounds. Using his word, the .40 "shattered" the ribs in the front and went through the ribs in the back. In my mind, the video with the .40 really wasn't that all impressive.
In his .45 test, using his word, the ribs in the front were "pulverized" and the ribs in the back were shattered. In my mind, the .45 meat test visually destroyed the meat, watermelon, and both the front and back ribs so much more than the .40 meat test. And this was using similar rounds...180gr vs 185gr! Just imagine the damage with the larger Win Ranger-T 230gr round.
Weapons to me are just tools to accomplish a specific task. So, I am perfectly fine with buying a .45 ACP that shoots a particular round that is ballistically better than the .40.....
The LuckyGunner lab results were based upon using the same testing methods of each caliber and when using various manufactured ammo. When it came to depth/penetration standards, they used the FBI published standard. Obviously, they measured expansion and velocity. I believe the whole purpose of their evaluations was to guide the reader to objective measurements so the reader can apply that information to their weapon and situation.
It is common specifically to carry "one particular brand, design, and weight of ammo".....
PH believes his meat test to be the definitive test. Again, his meat test used similar rounds. Using his word, the .40 "shattered" the ribs in the front and went through the ribs in the back. In my mind, the video with the .40 really wasn't that all impressive.
In his .45 test, using his word, the ribs in the front were "pulverized" and the ribs in the back were shattered. In my mind, the .45 meat test visually destroyed the meat, watermelon, and both the front and back ribs so much more than the .40 meat test. And this was using similar rounds...180gr vs 185gr! Just imagine the damage with the larger Win Ranger-T 230gr round.
Weapons to me are just tools to accomplish a specific task. So, I am perfectly fine with buying a .45 ACP that shoots a particular round that is ballistically better than the .40.....
Zerodefect
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45 definately has its niche as well.
Dont forget that 45 is full power subsonic as well. [9mm subsonic can be swatted from the air with a rolled up newspaper.] And a 45 suppressor fits on everything.
Dont forget that 45 is full power subsonic as well. [9mm subsonic can be swatted from the air with a rolled up newspaper.] And a 45 suppressor fits on everything.
I don’t know who’s been moving goal posts here. In my testing the smaller 40 caliber bullet penetrates deeper than the 45. But there is 45 ammo that I believe is just as good as the 40. That would be the Golden Saber 185 gr. I like this round better than the HST or the Ranger because it expands less and penetrates deeper in my testing. It performs very similar to the 40 HST.
I like Paul Harrells tests and watch them regularly. The 40 vs 45 video has the most impressive results of the 45 I’ve seen. And about the worst for the 40. Some of his other videos show impressive results for the 40. Also, once you “pop” a watermelon in a meat target, it will change the results of the following shots having different liquid characteristics to pass through. Either way I’ll take the 40.
CodeSection
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Um, have you read LuckyGunners test results? It seems you missed the point.....
WrongHanded
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You asked why people said what they said. You asked them to help you understand why they'd come to the conclusions they had. And you got answers. If you don't like those answers, that's your issue. The goal posts haven't been moved. The Winchester 230gr Ranger-T bullet is an outlier (which you can clearly see in Lucky Gunner data set). And I do prefer 16+" of penetration in gel tests. That's my preference. It really is that simple.
CodeSection
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Wow...the same can be said of you. You received an objective and tested answer that contradicted you and you decided to dismiss it as an "outlier". Lol...I get it! I truly do.....
The discussion went from actual objective test results to ignoring those results and then went to "preferences". You can't argue with "preferences" can ya?
UrbanHermit,
I will have to completely disagree with you theory that the flat meplat on a .40 S&W fmj makes it more effective.
What do you base that on? That flat meplat will not expand. The lack of expansion means that like 9m.m. fmj, it is very likely to overpenetrate. Also, if you are correct, why have no police departments or federal agencies adopted a flat tipped .40 S&W round. They would save a lot of money when they buy ammo. My agency spent millions of dollars on ammo and they stayed with hollow points.
Wronghanded,
I think that the FEDERAL .40 S&W performs excellently! It and the .45ACP expand to nearly double their caliber and hold together. What more could you want?
On another point, while old cup and core jhp bullets can expand and penetrate adequately, they need velocity to do that.
My agency went with the 155 grain jhp when we switched to the .40 S&W and it worked great, but wore out our guns in a decade. We had to buy new pistols after 10 years of use. The load worked, but cost more in the end. We went to 135 grain .40 S&W ammo and it was easier on the gun (and the officers), but qualifications were still low. So we went to the 180 grain FEDERAL HST and problems solved.
Jim
I will have to completely disagree with you theory that the flat meplat on a .40 S&W fmj makes it more effective.
What do you base that on? That flat meplat will not expand. The lack of expansion means that like 9m.m. fmj, it is very likely to overpenetrate. Also, if you are correct, why have no police departments or federal agencies adopted a flat tipped .40 S&W round. They would save a lot of money when they buy ammo. My agency spent millions of dollars on ammo and they stayed with hollow points.
Wronghanded,
I think that the FEDERAL .40 S&W performs excellently! It and the .45ACP expand to nearly double their caliber and hold together. What more could you want?
On another point, while old cup and core jhp bullets can expand and penetrate adequately, they need velocity to do that.
My agency went with the 155 grain jhp when we switched to the .40 S&W and it worked great, but wore out our guns in a decade. We had to buy new pistols after 10 years of use. The load worked, but cost more in the end. We went to 135 grain .40 S&W ammo and it was easier on the gun (and the officers), but qualifications were still low. So we went to the 180 grain FEDERAL HST and problems solved.
Jim
WrongHanded
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Wow...the same can be said of you. You received an objective and tested answer that contradicted you and you decided to dismiss it as an "outlier". Lol...I get it! I truly do.....
The discussion went from actual objective test results to ignoring those results and then went to "preferences". You can't argue with "preferences" can ya?
If you want to hang a "new" gun purchase on the Winchester Ranger-T 230gr .45ACP that expands to 1.00" in clear ballistics gel, as per Lucky Gunners testing, you go ahead and do that.
But it and the +P version are still outliers in those results based on their expansion. And that's obvious for anyone to see. Go buy that P227 you want and load it whatever you choose. But don't expect me to tell you it's worth it, because I don't think it is. And I don't think the .45ACP is worth it's weight compared to .40S&W. That's what we started with, and nothing has changed.
UrbanHermit
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When a round nose bullet penetrates tissue, the pressure it creates against the target is focused right at the "tip", and it tears the smallest possible hole it can while allowing the remainder of the bullet diameter to squeeze through harmlessly. When a flat nose bullet penetrates, pressure is distributed across the metplat, and entire diameter of the metplat is tearing tissue, not just a small point in the middle of it. This phenomenon has been known for over 100 years and influenced the design of many standard military and police cartridges. This is also common knowledge among handgun hunters, not controversial in the slightest. Flat nose bullets are just as popular, if not more popular for hunting than HPs, because they do more damage than round nose bullets but also penetrate more reliably than HPs. They cut a hole like a hole puncher that bleeds rapidly and doesn't close up. One of the reasons hollow points are so effective is that they mimic the effect of flat nose bullets even when they don't expand due to their geometry.
Maybe police agencies don't adopt flat nose bullets because they are concerned with overpenetration. Or maybe they just haven't tried them. Who knows.
UrbanHermit
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I think the 1911 is the only 45 that's worth it. The ergonomics, trigger, barrel length, slim magazines, etc compensate for the failure of the cartridge to live up to it's potential with modern factory loadings. Any other 45 I can live without.
UrbanHermit
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But do you really want a gun that only provides satisfactory performance with one ammunition type that probably isn't even in stock right now?Wow...the same can be said of you. You received an objective and tested answer that contradicted you and you decided to dismiss it as an "outlier". Lol...I get it! I truly do.....
The discussion went from actual objective test results to ignoring those results and then went to "preferences". You can't argue with "preferences" can ya?
This is hypothetical of course. In reality I would be comfortable carrying 45 FMJ.
The late, great Jim Cirillo, formerly of the NYPD Stakeout Unit, became a believer in bullets with no ogive. IOW, a full wadcutter. He said that any ogive tended to result in bullets glancing-away from bone. Obviously, full wadcutters are not going to feed in most autos. For a while, a small loading outfit was loading ammo to his specifications. That outfit did not last long, but Buffalo Bore, and, IIRC, Grizzly, now load full wadcutter ammo, for some revolver cartridges.
Notably, I never read of, or heard Jim Cirillo actually recommend .38 Special target wadcutter ammo. I believe that he wanted his wadcutters to be moving faster, and, Buffalo Bore does load their .38 Special wadcutters to move faster than the usual factory target wadcutters.
I have no affiliation with Buffalo Bore. I have paid full price, when shopping for Buffalo Bore ammo.
Notably, I never read of, or heard Jim Cirillo actually recommend .38 Special target wadcutter ammo. I believe that he wanted his wadcutters to be moving faster, and, Buffalo Bore does load their .38 Special wadcutters to move faster than the usual factory target wadcutters.
I have no affiliation with Buffalo Bore. I have paid full price, when shopping for Buffalo Bore ammo.
I’ve studied LuckyGunner and done my own gel testing. If you did the same you’d see how different lots of ammo behave very differently so we can’t put too much emphasis on one test.
Here’s the the most extreme example. Both bullets are from 124gr +p GoldDots, but from different lots.
Shanvanvocht
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I knew and often shot with Jim Cirillo. He did not believe in training or competing with reduced ammo and certainly would never recommend it for carry.
Keeping with the OP, fmj flat nose will always be predictable.
The top row is 180 Ranger Ts tested in the exact same way as the bottom two rows (Golden Sabers and Gold Dots). LuckyGunner showed that the Ranger Ts did great. Not the lot I got.
The top row is 180 Ranger Ts tested in the exact same way as the bottom two rows (Golden Sabers and Gold Dots). LuckyGunner showed that the Ranger Ts did great. Not the lot I got.
WrongHanded
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UrbanHermit
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https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
Even the target wadcutter stuff isn't half bad. I have a token 38 snub somewhere and the 148 grain target wadcutter at 750 fps is the only load I would ever bother using in it.
CodeSection
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You can refute the data and call them outliers, but please don't get confused that I ever wanted you to tell me its worth. You couldn't even give a good explanation when asked. I gave you an opportunity to provide contrary evidence, which you could not.
Your opinion is your opinion, but it doesn't change the independent credible data on the "outliers". Again, you've had amply opportunity to provide something of more credible independent data other than a feeling or preference when confronted with real credible independent data.
To each their own....choice is good. Enough said.....
C-grunt
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My departments 45 duty load is a 230 HST +P. Ive seen what it does in shootings. It expands well and many times completely goes through the bad guy. Ive seen the same from Gold Dot and Golden Saber 45 loads too. The only times Ive seen the 45 "fail" is direct hit on the heavier bones or the big joints. It tends to shatter those bones and joints and then have very little or no penetration after. The same is seen with all of the duty calibers.
WrongHanded
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If you didn't want my opinion, you shouldn't have asked.
I've not refuted and data, and you saying I have doesn't make it true.
I asked you why you thought the .45ACP was appreciable better than the .40S&W, enough to make up for the larger gun and lack of capacity. You pointed to the Winchester Ranger-T 230gr in .45ACP as having 1.00" expansion (and there's the +P version at 0.99" expansion). Then you claim those are not outlier.
Not outliers?! The next largest expansion of and .45ACP bullet tested by LG is the Federal 230gr Tactical Bonded +P at 0.86". Everything else they tested expands on average less than that. They have literally no other .45ACP besides the Ranger-T that expands to more than 200% of original diameter. Even that federal load does not expand to 200% or original diameter. Not outliers?
If you want to put your faith in a bullet that looks impressive because it expands to over 200% or original diameter under controlled test conditions and through a consistent media, you have at it. Me? I think real world results will be less impressive.
Zerodefect
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Where do y'all get Ranger T?
That's been vaporware for as long as I've been shooting. I can get Win PDX1. Which seems to be good reliable ammo. I've never seen Ranger T on a shelf.
That's been vaporware for as long as I've been shooting. I can get Win PDX1. Which seems to be good reliable ammo. I've never seen Ranger T on a shelf.
SGammo had it just as the plandemic was being implemented. I haven’t seen it since. LuckyGunner would be the place to watch IMO. Maybe TargetSports also.
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