One of the most ignored factors of the 40SW in caliber debates

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I usually try to avoid the caliber debates, but this is always an interesting point brought up in these discussions.

It seems as if physics only seems to work one way in the caliber debates. Guns chambered in .40 S&W, .45 Auto, .357 SIG, .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, etc., are all described as harder to shoot than 9mm, well, because of physics. However, 9mm is just as effective as the aforementioned calibers, where apparently physics is now on vacation. Apparently, Newton's 3rd Law of Motion is not applicable in defensive handgun calibers.

Hey, there are valid reasons for choosing a 9mm pistol over a gun chambered in .40 S&W, .45 Auto, .357 SIG, etc., capacity is higher, the round is easier to shoot fast, it is easier on the guns and the shooters, and probably the number one reason it is usually chosen, it is less expensive.

I think data on the real world effectiveness of any cartridge or bullet is incredibly bad. That's why I prefer what I see with my own eyes on game and meat targets.

It's concerning that "stopping power" is still largely seen as a function of caliber or bullet design or energy. I think it's almost purely a function of shot placement. The advantage of larger bullets with more effective designs is that they will cause more tissue destruction and thus lead to exsanguination and organ failure more reliably. It's no different than why most people would say a .308 is more effective on deer than a .243. It causes more trauma, so the animal bleeds to death or loses oxygen faster, that's why it's more effective. That has nothing to do with stopping an attacker instantly at close range. To stop an attacker instantly, you shoot them in the head or spine, perhaps that hip girdle. The reason why you want an effective bullet is not to "stop" them better, it's so they lose consciousness faster if the fight occurs at long range and drags on and you have to hide behind cover or seek an escape route. If you're just shooting a guy at 7 yards who has a knife it doesn't really matter what caliber or bullet you are using. The reason why we are still having these debates 120 years after these rounds were developed is that people still haven't figured out that you can't reliably stop someone instantly with lung trauma no matter what you shoot them with. Every deer hunter knows this.
 
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There stories from law enforcement all the time to this day of guys continuing to put up a fight after multiple chest hits from hollow points in every caliber. I thought that was common knowledge.
It is.

That does not allege any shortcomings in the 9mm.
 
The reason why you want an effective bullet is not to "stop" them better, it's so they lose consciousness faster if the fight occurs at long range and drags on and you have to hide behind cover or seek an escape route.
Where did you get that idea?

If you're just shooting a guy at 7 yards who has a knife it doesn't really matter what caliber or bullet you are using.
Where did you get that idea?
 
Is still want the most amount of power that I can shoot in a timely fashion.

Micro = .380
Subcompact = 9mm, .38sp
Compact = .40
Fullsize = Anything. Maybe .45, maybe 9mm and more capacity. It completely depends, on why I want a fullsize. Large frame to control major PF ammo? Large frame for capacity? Two different strategies.

.40 is one heck of a good round. It can be loaded to FIB's 10mm spec easy. 180gn@1000+fps. It brings major power factor to nearly every 9mm platform pistol out there. It can loaded to minor PF and shoot softer than plinking 9mm's. It's easy to reload. And it has quality bullets available. It's a shame that new shooters are avoiding it.
 
Where did you get that idea?

Where did you get that idea?
I've read hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds reports of handgun usage by law enforcement, military, armed citizens, gang members, and other people who have been involved in shootings. I've read every study ever conducted on handgun performance. I have been mentally aggregating this data for 15 years. I have also shot a lot of animals with many different types of cartridges and bullets. There is absolutely no consistency to the "stopping" effectiveness of any handgun caliber or bullet design. None. Every weak pocket pistol round has stopped people dead in their tracks with chest hits and FMJs. Every modern service cartridge with the latest and greatest bullets and +p loadings has failed to stop people after dumping entire magazines into them. What I've learned is that:

1. Many people are predisposed to ceasing hostilities, even laying down on the ground, when shot, regardless of the cartridge or bullet used, even people who seem to be acting very aggressively. I believe this is a phenomenon of the psychology of humans and not bullets.

2. The only way to gauruntee instantaneous incapacitation is to destroy the central nervous system. Even a 22 is often sufficient to do this, though it's bullets tend to be prone to deflection. Taking out large structural supports such as the hip girdle is also very often effective, but also does not require high energy rounds with expanding bullets. With edged weapons you can slice through tendons and muscles and make it impossible for your opponent to continue fighting, but bullets don't do this very well.

3. Large caliber bullets, bullets with flat metplats, and hollow points tend to result in unconsciousness and death faster and more reliably than non-expanding round nose bullets with sharply tapered geometry in small calibers.

If you're shooting a guy with a knife at 7 yards, he may be predisposed to falling down when shot, or you may be predisposed to taking headshots, but either way, the cartridge and bullet selection is going to be one of least important factors in the outcome of this situation. These factors are far more important when taking shots at long range where a headshot can not be reliably executed and where you might be utilizing cover and depending on your attackers succumbing to their wounds over time due to blood loss and lack of oxygen.

If I thought that a defensive situation could only occur at close range and could only transpire the way people describe in gun forums and self defense courses, I would carry something like a keltec PMR 30 with FMJs. I would see no point to using anything more potent. I can make 2-3" groups at 20 yards on command purely through reflex with virtually any modern handgun because I have shot handguns almost every day for 11 years. The reason why I carry weapons like 9mm, 40SW, 45ACP, etc is because I do not have a home, and I don't go out in public very much, so I will never be the victim of a home invasion, nor will I be attacked by a crackhead on the street. I spend most of my time in the woods, so if I ever have to defend myself, the situation is going to be less like what you read about in the gun magazines, and more like guerilla warfare. The shooting range could be as much as 100 yards. I will probably be outnumbered. The aggressor could easily be a bear or a moose (this has happened to me more than once.) My carry pistol is also my defacto survival and casual hunting gun, and must be capable of lethally wounding deer size game from 40 yards with a thoracic shot broadside or quartering, without the shoulder plate ruining the performance of the bullet.

Just my opinions.
 
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It is.

That does not allege any shortcomings in the 9mm.
The shortcoming of the 9mm is that 80-90% of the ammunition in circulation, and 99% of the ammunition cheap enough to stockpile in any serious quantities, utilizes bullets that I'm just not impressed with. This may not matter to police departments but it matters to me.
 
I'd have to charge a consulting fee for retaining arrant nonsense like that.
I just want to see what the arguments would be for 9mm FMJ. Reliability would be a weak argument these days. Carrying what you train with would be the biggest I imagine. You could know exactly where your bullets hit at 50 or 100 yards and still have enough left to fill 2 or 3 magazines.
 
The shortcoming of the 9mm is that 80-90% of the ammunition in circulation, and 99% of the ammunition cheap enough to stockpile in any serious quantities, utilizes bullets that I'm just not impressed with.
Then don't carry it.
This may not matter to police departments but it matters to me
What do you think they carry?
Carrying what you train with would be the biggest I imagine.
As long as the gun functions and the POI is the same, substitution is not an issue. I would never use premium SD ammunition for practice.
You could know exactly where your bullets hit at 50 or 100 yards and still have enough left to fill 2 or 3 magazines.
Why would anyone need that for lawful self defense with a handgun?
 
Then don't carry it.
I often don't these days, but I have several 9mm pistols that I'll never sell, just because it's important to be able to use the most common ammunition type out there.
What do you think they carry?
Probably whatever is the most expensive.

As long as the gun functions and the POI is the same, substitution is not an issue. I would never use premium SD ammunition for practice.
Maybe not for shooting a guy center of mass at 7 yards, but I routinely shoot animals like coyotes at 50-60 yards with Glocks, 1911s, and other combat/defensive pistols, I also train at 100 yards on a regular basis, and changing your ammunition absolutely effects accuracy and point of impact at these ranges, enough for a complete miss sometimes. You can't just train with FMJ here and then switch to some HP load with a different velocity and ballistic coefficient and get the same results.
Why would anyone need that for lawful self defense with a handgun?
Because there are people who might identify me as a potential target or victim from long range and feel emboldened to intitiate violence due to the relative seclusion of the wilderness. If I'm unable to escape, I just might shoot back. This will probably become a much more common occurrence in the months and years to come as society continues to collapse and people turn to banditry and join various militia factions who, for example, may take it upon themselves to remove people of specific races or ethnicities from the area.
 
Because there are people who might identify me as a potential target or victim from long range and feel emboldened to intitiate violence due to the relative seclusion of the wilderness. If I'm unable to escape, I just might shoot back. This will probably become a much more common occurrence in the months and years to come as society continues to collapse and people turn to banditry and join various militia factions who, for example, may take it upon themselves to remove people of specific races or ethnicities from the area.
Good heavens.
 
Yep. I only have 31 rounds of 9mm jhp. But 2500 of fmj.

If I'm bugging out, I'm not grabbing my 9mm ammo can.
To be fair, I'm kind of splitting hairs in this thread. 9mm ball can absolutely be effective with good shot placement and has for over a century. I just think 40 is better.
 
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Because there are people who might identify me as a potential target or victim from long range and feel emboldened to intitiate violence due to the relative seclusion of the wilderness. If I'm unable to escape, I just might shoot back. This will probably become a much more common occurrence in the months and years to come as society continues to collapse and people turn to banditry and join various militia factions who, for example, may take it upon themselves to remove people of specific races or ethnicities from the area.

Wouldn't that be a good reason to move elsewhere, though?

As opposed to the usual cliched recommendation of leaving one's productive Silicon Valley job because high - capacity magazines are prohibited in California?
 
Wouldn't that be a good reason to move elsewhere, though?

As opposed to the usual cliched recommendation of leaving one's productive Silicon Valley job because high - capacity magazines are prohibited in California?
I'm probably going to have to unfortunately. I might not even be able to keep a job where I'm living much longer the way things are going.
 
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