Don't you think Open Carry is safer than CC?
- Thread starter TexasGunbie
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There are some really good points on both sides of the argument in this thread. Seems to me that if you have a permit to carry it should be the permit holders discretion whether to open carry or conceal. There are situations due to location where it might be advisable to OC due to surroundings and the opposite also applies.
If you have a concealed carry permit and accidentally expose your side arm and get hassled or worse by a LEO because your concealed became unconcealed then that sucks.
Have a permit to carry; the user/permit holder decides the perceived situation and deems appropriate actions for open or concealed. Does away with accidentally showing or brandishing a weapon charge..Seems reasonable to me. Now all we need are the politicals to agree.......
If you have a concealed carry permit and accidentally expose your side arm and get hassled or worse by a LEO because your concealed became unconcealed then that sucks.
Have a permit to carry; the user/permit holder decides the perceived situation and deems appropriate actions for open or concealed. Does away with accidentally showing or brandishing a weapon charge..Seems reasonable to me. Now all we need are the politicals to agree.......
TexasRifleman
Sorry about the flippancy of my post (to the effect - oc is for showoffs.
Foolish ones)
Been lurking for a long time but not experienced in posting. I was thinking that comments were simply personal opinion and if your intent was seriously to persuade or dissuade an accompanying supportive link would be called for. My bad.
The penance ,lol, I have charged myself with, is to take the time to describe why I am not in favor of o.c.
It is just opinion. But the concern I was alluding to with my 'show off' comment is the "mine is bigger than yours" attitude prevalent among many. Particularly the immature.
There was a time when a small cal. one or two shot Deringer(sic)was considered to be an adequate SD CW. Now it is not uncommon for us to believe that .38's and 9mm's are lacking in sufficient stopping power for SD. CC or OC.
If OC were to take off I can see the same type that tried to out muscle each other with horsepower in their cars during the 70's trying to do the same with their exposed firearms. No. Not all. Only a small minority at first. But as they compete with each other for the biggest and baddest arms you can be sure that some of US will begin to wonder if our .357's are 'enough' when those around us are wandering the streets with AK47's,......etc.----That is what the first part of my comment (show off)
was in reference to.
The second part. Foolish. We generally assume that a licensed to carry permit is in the hands of a G. G. Not a B.G. Again. We think of ourselves. If you are like me and I assume most are, you have never had so much as an accidental, or more appropriately, an unintended discharge. And I go back 56 years to the USMC.
But all the B.G.'s started out as G.G.'s. That means there is nothing to prevent a GG from acquiring a CC/OC permit and then turning B.G.
But most important of all under the heading of foolish, again, in my opinion is that O.C. by a majority of those licensed will result in a competition of 'mine is bigger' which will lead the ambivalent (about gun control) populace to jump on the wrong side of the issue.
Do not interpret the above comment about the escalation of arms size to yourself unless you are immature an overly sensitive.
Having made this response I have to say the ensuing flames I have endured have been worthwhile. I found mainsail's link supporting OC to be interestingly edifying. And I offer this short link to present the view of another concerning the pitfalls of O.C.
For me the bottom line is that OC has a much greater chance of inhibiting my grandson's right to bear arms. Not this year or next. But someday.
Down here in Fl. the seniors don't seem to mind people carrying concealed. But the sight of openly armed Tea party members at a rally was not good for us. And almost all the seniors I am referring to are strongly conservative Republicans and Libertarians. I DON'T want to lose their vote (even one) to the Bradys.
Regards
Sorry about the flippancy of my post (to the effect - oc is for showoffs.
Foolish ones)
Been lurking for a long time but not experienced in posting. I was thinking that comments were simply personal opinion and if your intent was seriously to persuade or dissuade an accompanying supportive link would be called for. My bad.
The penance ,lol, I have charged myself with, is to take the time to describe why I am not in favor of o.c.
It is just opinion. But the concern I was alluding to with my 'show off' comment is the "mine is bigger than yours" attitude prevalent among many. Particularly the immature.
There was a time when a small cal. one or two shot Deringer(sic)was considered to be an adequate SD CW. Now it is not uncommon for us to believe that .38's and 9mm's are lacking in sufficient stopping power for SD. CC or OC.
If OC were to take off I can see the same type that tried to out muscle each other with horsepower in their cars during the 70's trying to do the same with their exposed firearms. No. Not all. Only a small minority at first. But as they compete with each other for the biggest and baddest arms you can be sure that some of US will begin to wonder if our .357's are 'enough' when those around us are wandering the streets with AK47's,......etc.----That is what the first part of my comment (show off)
was in reference to.
The second part. Foolish. We generally assume that a licensed to carry permit is in the hands of a G. G. Not a B.G. Again. We think of ourselves. If you are like me and I assume most are, you have never had so much as an accidental, or more appropriately, an unintended discharge. And I go back 56 years to the USMC.
But all the B.G.'s started out as G.G.'s. That means there is nothing to prevent a GG from acquiring a CC/OC permit and then turning B.G.
But most important of all under the heading of foolish, again, in my opinion is that O.C. by a majority of those licensed will result in a competition of 'mine is bigger' which will lead the ambivalent (about gun control) populace to jump on the wrong side of the issue.
Do not interpret the above comment about the escalation of arms size to yourself unless you are immature an overly sensitive.
Having made this response I have to say the ensuing flames I have endured have been worthwhile. I found mainsail's link supporting OC to be interestingly edifying. And I offer this short link to present the view of another concerning the pitfalls of O.C.
For me the bottom line is that OC has a much greater chance of inhibiting my grandson's right to bear arms. Not this year or next. But someday.
Down here in Fl. the seniors don't seem to mind people carrying concealed. But the sight of openly armed Tea party members at a rally was not good for us. And almost all the seniors I am referring to are strongly conservative Republicans and Libertarians. I DON'T want to lose their vote (even one) to the Bradys.
Regards
wheelgunslinger
Member
I reckon I'm on the extreme opposite side of the argument from you, fortyluv.
I think that free men and women can carry weapons for protection and defense in a free society.
We have laws in place through every jurisdiction of the USA to penalize attempt, conspiracy, and the actual act of violence against another person or persons up to and including murder.
In my view, allowing or disallowing me to carry open or concealed is not the government's business.
It's also not my business to tell people who can and can't enjoy their natural rights.
OC is a way for free people to declare and enjoy their freedom.
Ultimately, I'm for people being able to choose for themselves whether they want to carry concealed or open and I don't think it's up to the State(tm) to infringe on anyone's right to do so.
I support your right to decide what's right for you.
I think that free men and women can carry weapons for protection and defense in a free society.
We have laws in place through every jurisdiction of the USA to penalize attempt, conspiracy, and the actual act of violence against another person or persons up to and including murder.
In my view, allowing or disallowing me to carry open or concealed is not the government's business.
It's also not my business to tell people who can and can't enjoy their natural rights.
OC is a way for free people to declare and enjoy their freedom.
Ultimately, I'm for people being able to choose for themselves whether they want to carry concealed or open and I don't think it's up to the State(tm) to infringe on anyone's right to do so.
I support your right to decide what's right for you.
Howdy there wheelgunslinger
Like your user name. My favorite is my 1955 S&W 25-2
Yeah, we're sort of on different sides. But only because of the fact that perception becomes reality.
I openly carry where I feel it won't adversely influence people to jump on the anti bandwagon. Unfortunately that is not on public property here in Fl. Down here the senior citizens think of people openly carrying as "cowboy gunfighters" looking for any excuse to clear leather. (by the way. I'm 73)
That is NOT the reality. But that perception becomes the perceived reality and I fear that it will lead to a restriction of my gun rights.
Like your user name. My favorite is my 1955 S&W 25-2
Yeah, we're sort of on different sides. But only because of the fact that perception becomes reality.
I openly carry where I feel it won't adversely influence people to jump on the anti bandwagon. Unfortunately that is not on public property here in Fl. Down here the senior citizens think of people openly carrying as "cowboy gunfighters" looking for any excuse to clear leather. (by the way. I'm 73)
That is NOT the reality. But that perception becomes the perceived reality and I fear that it will lead to a restriction of my gun rights.
NavyLCDR
member
stickhauler said:
Instead of playing the what if game, how about we play the what really happened in real life game, shall we?
http://vagunforum.net/general-discu...d-lives-richmond-shooting-saturday-t1225.html
and
http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/19/gun-owner-saves-lives-in-the-richmond-va-golden-market-shooting/
From the second article, since you obviously missed it stickhauler:
Once again, the facts and historical data just don't support the theory.
And what else happens in real life in the real world?
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-atlanta/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw
According to stickhauler's theory the team casing the joint should have went out, got their friends and came back in guns blazing at the open carriers... but that's not what happened in real life.
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NavyLCDR
member
fortyluv,
If you would hang around WITH the open carry community, at our functions, our picnics, etc... you would discover that the open carry community SUPPORTS each other, we don't compete against each other. We will leave that strictly for the gun range, just like car racing should be left for the racetrack.
Part of the problem, fortyluv, is that in Florida all you have is perception of open carry. You don't see the reality of open carry in Florida because it is illegal. You don't see the father at lunch with his wife, daughter and mother-in-law on a sunny mother's day morning, who just happens to wear a gun on his belt to be able to protect his family. You don't see the mother watching over her kids in the park with a gun on her belt to protect them with. You don't see normal Americans doing normal activities that everyone else around them is doing, the only difference being they have a gun on their belt.
IF open carry was legal in Florida AND there were sufficient normal Americans doing normal activities with guns on their belts, don't you think that perception could be changed by reality?
But that change in perception is never going to happen when we have our own members of the gun community making such remarks as all open carriers are foolish showoffs. That does absolutely nothing but set our cause back. And if you come here and make such comments, don't you think the anti-gun people pick up on the sentiment out there in real life too - and that reinforces their feelings?
Sky said:
I would go one step further and say that no permit should be required for either method of carry. It works well with no problems in Alaska, Vermont and Arizona.
NavyLCDR
member
Sky said:
There is nothing wrong with picking on Navy fly boys. I am an Aviation Maintenance Officer. The fly boys generally deserve all the hassle we can give them!
In a CCW state, (Like my beloved Texas)
The LEO are not supposed to hassle you if you have an inadvertant
display of your weapon. (I.E. the wind blowing your shirt up, etc)
In a CCW state, (like Texas) there is no law to charge you.
This point is VERY important.
If you make notice of your CCW,(On purpose) and there is no threat you CAN be charged for a misdemeanor.
We may never agree on the OC or CC topic folks, but I would remind everyone of one more vastly important point.
The recent supreme court ruling was exactly 5-4 turning down the Chicago ban. 5 to 4 is like an end-zone catch at the end of the game.
We (the gun owning communicty) BARELY escaped a tremendous decison
If we have ONE, JUST ONE conservative Judge either pass or step down, we will have a HUGE problem.
Our less than conservative President, will most certainly put a new, more liberal typ judge in place. That is all that it will take.
The 5-4 vote will quickly turn to 4-5.
This is why EVERYONE needs to become an NRA member and VOTE.
Many of my most conservative friends are buying the anti gun approach.
We need to speak up, but not in an in your face approach that will shine poorly on all the gun owners
The LEO are not supposed to hassle you if you have an inadvertant
display of your weapon. (I.E. the wind blowing your shirt up, etc)
In a CCW state, (like Texas) there is no law to charge you.
This point is VERY important.
If you make notice of your CCW,(On purpose) and there is no threat you CAN be charged for a misdemeanor.
We may never agree on the OC or CC topic folks, but I would remind everyone of one more vastly important point.
The recent supreme court ruling was exactly 5-4 turning down the Chicago ban. 5 to 4 is like an end-zone catch at the end of the game.
We (the gun owning communicty) BARELY escaped a tremendous decison
If we have ONE, JUST ONE conservative Judge either pass or step down, we will have a HUGE problem.
Our less than conservative President, will most certainly put a new, more liberal typ judge in place. That is all that it will take.
The 5-4 vote will quickly turn to 4-5.
This is why EVERYONE needs to become an NRA member and VOTE.
Many of my most conservative friends are buying the anti gun approach.
We need to speak up, but not in an in your face approach that will shine poorly on all the gun owners
Mainsail
Member
That’s quite a leap, and completely erroneous. It appears that you’re saying that one in five police officers are just walking along and are attacked by someone desiring to steal their sidearm. Did you apply any critical thinking to that, or can you only think in sound-bites? The truth is that ZERO in five officers were targeted for their gun; it never happens. Police officers cannot avoid trouble; they have to wade into it. They have to make arrests, wrestle, search, and handcuff people who have already displayed their preference for violence. In every case the officer’s gun was taken during the struggle to get a suspect into custody. I do not do that. I carry openly every day; I do not wrestle or arrest criminals. The comparison is inapt.Dean1818 said:
Worse, the person who posted after you heard your sound-bite, couldn’t be bothered to think about it, and agrees with you! This is the biggest threat to all of our freedoms; Americans have become too lazy to think critically, they sway with the wind and agree with the last seemingly reasonable sound-bite they heard. They cannot be bothered to actually think about what they heard to determine if it even makes sense. It was exactly this sort of intellectual lethargy that enabled the anti-gun groups to pass every gun ban scheme since the 60s. Guns kill! Saturday night specials are made for putting a man six feet in the hole! Assault weapons have no sporting purpose!alexp said:
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NavyLCDR
member
Dean1818 said:
Which is exactly why I carry my gun on my belt and not up in everyone's face. Besides, if I duct taped my gun to my forehead, it would hurt a whole lot to get it off there.
CHEVELLE427
Member
I WOULD LIKE OPEN CARRY BUT DON'T WANT TO CARRY OPEN, RASION IS
FIRST IF MY GUN WAS TO SHOW IF I HAD TO REACH TO THE TOP SHELF TO GET SOMETHING AND SOMEONE SEES IT THEY FREAK OUT CALL THE LAW MAKE A SCENE,
if open carry is legal it wont matter if my gun gets seen except the bad guy might see it then he has the upper hand if he decides he wants to try an take something from me.
FIRST IF MY GUN WAS TO SHOW IF I HAD TO REACH TO THE TOP SHELF TO GET SOMETHING AND SOMEONE SEES IT THEY FREAK OUT CALL THE LAW MAKE A SCENE,
if open carry is legal it wont matter if my gun gets seen except the bad guy might see it then he has the upper hand if he decides he wants to try an take something from me.
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NavyLCDR
member
CHEVELLE427 said:
Try to think really hard about this. I know it is going to require concentration....
How much easier would it be for the bad guy to wait two minutes for you to leave, or go to the next aisle or go down the street to the next convenience store and take what he wanted from the next person to come along whom was not visibly armed? If you want a steak, and a tiger and an alley cat are eating steaks - which one are you going to try to take it from, the alley cat or the tiger?
I don't understand this fascination with the theory that a gun makes one a target. 90% of the population does not appear to be armed!!!! Why in hell would the bad guys pick out the 10% hardest targets most likely to end their careers by putting them in a coffin?!? Criminals want to succeed at their chosen profession just as much as anyone else does, and getting shot does not boost their chances of a successful career!
If there are two banks, one block away from each other. One bank has a guard with a gun at the door. The other bank has mall cop at the door with no gun. Which bank are the criminals going to pick to rob?!?
It is such common sense that it is frightening.
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Mainsail
Member
NavyLT said:
Watch it bub, I worked hard for those 5650 flying hours. Of course, I was smart enough to do it in Air Force Starlifters.
It seems to me there are two important differences here beyond whether we are individually physically and/or mentally more comfortable with O.C. or C.C.
Someone suggested I should spend some time with the perfect family of O.C.ers. at picnics and other outings and see how responsible they are. I am not concerned about how they present themselves. I am concerned about two young (or old) legally open carrying hotheads having a public shootout from the hip. Try to visualize the reaction. Think Brady.
I am interested in maintaining my carry rights. Not seeing them lost in a modern day western shootout. WE may not indulge in that kind of behavior. But someone else will and the fallout will indirectly and possibly directly affect all of us.
Regards
Someone suggested I should spend some time with the perfect family of O.C.ers. at picnics and other outings and see how responsible they are. I am not concerned about how they present themselves. I am concerned about two young (or old) legally open carrying hotheads having a public shootout from the hip. Try to visualize the reaction. Think Brady.
I am interested in maintaining my carry rights. Not seeing them lost in a modern day western shootout. WE may not indulge in that kind of behavior. But someone else will and the fallout will indirectly and possibly directly affect all of us.
Regards
NavyLCDR
member
fortyluv said:
So... why are you limiting that to open carry?!?
Wouldn't that be just as likely to happen with persons concealed carrying? Is the answer, using your "concerns", to be against ALL carrying of guns? You've been listening to the Brady Bunch too much... that's what the problem is.There is one difference between the person who open carries and the person who concealed carries. That one difference is where their shirt gets tucked in.
You don't have carry rights in Florida. You have to obtain permission from the state to exercise a privilege that they allow you to.
CHEVELLE427
Member
THINK HARD ABOUT THIS ONE.
your in the sticks and not another store around now you can be part of the robbers new pickings as there are limited funds at the stop and rob , he knows you have a gun you don't know he is robbing the place so he pops you first then goes on with business , gets the $25 in the register got your wallet and now has a new gun.
stop and rob's clerks have been killed for way less.
i do see your point it is just a job to the bad guy and like most all humane they want to do it the easiest way they can IN AND OUT.
but not all act like your describing, some just don't care, there the ones that when they were kids would Tye 2 cats tail together and toss them over a close line. or stick a turtle on a post. some just live to have power and don't care if the target is an easy one or not.
a court house had a nut job come in a while back he shot the 2 gaurds that had guns first then went looking for the judge , lawyer and his ex wife.
a gun in sight makes you a top choice on the hit list
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Mainsail
Member
Florida led the nation in the Shall Issue concealed carry movement. The groups opposed to concealed carry claimed, using sound-bites that seemed believable, that there would be shootouts and mass killing. They said people would turn petty arguments over a parking space into an old-west style show down.fortyluv said:
It didn’t happen.
Then, one by one, in every state that proposed concealed carry legislation, they made the same silly claims.
It was proved wrong every time. Why do you think it would be true for open carry? I don’t want to “think Brady” and I’m not sure why you are using their failed argument.
NavyLCDR
member
CHEVELLE427
You're right. I am going out now and pulling the seat belts out of my car. I am replacing them with a 5 point harness, roll cage, and fire suppression system. Not all auto crashes end up in a fiery roll over - but some do. So I should worry about the fiery roll over crash and take precautions, just in case.
60% of the criminals themselves admit they won't mess with a guy with a gun. The other 40% either lied about it or they will mess with me if I am carrying a gun or not. So, since they are criminals, all 100% of them would mess with me without knowing about the gun. 60% said knowledge of the gun would stop them. Why should I not deter those 60% from messing with me? Why not play odds that are in my favor?
You're right. I am going out now and pulling the seat belts out of my car. I am replacing them with a 5 point harness, roll cage, and fire suppression system. Not all auto crashes end up in a fiery roll over - but some do. So I should worry about the fiery roll over crash and take precautions, just in case.
60% of the criminals themselves admit they won't mess with a guy with a gun. The other 40% either lied about it or they will mess with me if I am carrying a gun or not. So, since they are criminals, all 100% of them would mess with me without knowing about the gun. 60% said knowledge of the gun would stop them. Why should I not deter those 60% from messing with me? Why not play odds that are in my favor?
In SC there are a lot of guns being carried CC but most people, THAT VOTE, are not seeing them or complaining about them. Now with OC that changes all these people, THAT VOTE, see them and complain they could VOTE against your right to carry that gun. Then everybody gets screwed.
So... why are you limiting that to open carry?!? Wouldn't that be just as likely to happen with persons concealed carrying? Is the answer, using your "concerns", to be against ALL carrying of guns? You've been listening to the Brady Bunch too much... that's what the problem is.
Look. If there is a "throw down" between a couple of CC's it will not have the effect on the general public as two guys with hog legs strapped to their hips. You either have to understand this or are trolling or otherwise being obtuse.
Say the CC's have a shoot out. Tomorrow I step out of the house in CC mode. There is no reaction from folk.
Now suppose a couple of OC's clear leather.
The next day you step outside with something visible on your hip and I guarantee there will be a big reaction.
And forget Fl. It is where I live now. But I have done tours in N.C., Tex., CA., and other places.
And as far as being against the carrying of all firearms, that is a strawman and you know it.
Look. If there is a "throw down" between a couple of CC's it will not have the effect on the general public as two guys with hog legs strapped to their hips. You either have to understand this or are trolling or otherwise being obtuse.
Say the CC's have a shoot out. Tomorrow I step out of the house in CC mode. There is no reaction from folk.
Now suppose a couple of OC's clear leather.
The next day you step outside with something visible on your hip and I guarantee there will be a big reaction.
And forget Fl. It is where I live now. But I have done tours in N.C., Tex., CA., and other places.
And as far as being against the carrying of all firearms, that is a strawman and you know it.
In SC there are a lot of guns being carried CC but most people, THAT VOTE, are not seeing them or complaining about them. Now with OC that changes all these people, THAT VOTE, see them and complain they could VOTE against your right to carry that gun. Then everybody gets screwed.
That's the point I am trying to make. But unsuccessfully I'm sorry to say.
That's the point I am trying to make. But unsuccessfully I'm sorry to say.
CHEVELLE427
Member
some that have had little or no experience with guns and are scared to death of them, thanks to the news media
(the gun went off accidentally)
if your finger was not on the baing switch it ain't going off, it wont come alive in the night and shoot you as you sleep and mine are in the same spot i left them when i come back to check on them, not one has moved around the house.
My GF is sorta like this and she is out of the navy, should know that the gun is not alive it is as dead as the rock in the yard. nothing magic about it.
i think they should have a gun teaching class in school. city kids are more likely to shoot them self then country kids , as country kids we grew up using guns at a young age, from shooting rats in the barn to snakes on the pond, never had a thought to point it at someone much less shoot someone, always checked to see if it was loaded and cleaned it more then our rooms
(the gun went off accidentally)
if your finger was not on the baing switch it ain't going off, it wont come alive in the night and shoot you as you sleep and mine are in the same spot i left them when i come back to check on them, not one has moved around the house.
My GF is sorta like this and she is out of the navy, should know that the gun is not alive it is as dead as the rock in the yard. nothing magic about it.
i think they should have a gun teaching class in school. city kids are more likely to shoot them self then country kids , as country kids we grew up using guns at a young age, from shooting rats in the barn to snakes on the pond, never had a thought to point it at someone much less shoot someone, always checked to see if it was loaded and cleaned it more then our rooms
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