Open carry harrassment and screwball LEO logic...

[siglite]

Man, there are some OC haters out there. It kind of makes me chuckle, how supposed pro 2a folks will write long diatribes about the evils of exercising ones rights. I don't even bother rebutting them any more.

MY BROTHER WAS ON HIS #$^% PORCH WHEN THIS HAPPENED.

To launch into a freakin' anti-OC diatribe about this situation strikes me as patently ridiculous to the point of comedy. Thanks for the laugh, 2a haters.

 

[Majic]

"causing a public disturbance" is a common charge when OC in quite a few ohio cities... some even have separate ordinances against. I have been told by several LE in ohio that while OC is legal they will charge you with something in most cases for oc in most populated areas.

How many of these charges hold up in court? Start hitting the LEO's with harassment charges and the agencies will make them stop. City council frowns mighty heavily when departments lose limited budget money to petty lawsuits.

 

[pappy]

"causing a public disturbance" is a common charge when OC in quite a few ohio cities... some even have separate ordinances against. I have been told by several LE in ohio that while OC is legal they will charge you with something in most cases for oc in most populated areas.

Same thing in DeKalb County Alabama. I was told by a deputy sheriff that if I open carried (legal in AL) he WOULD find a reason to arrest me.

 

[Drgong]

The cop does have a point. If someone calls 911 to report an armed man strolling through the streets, the police has to react with equal force. Maybe it's a matter of principle, but I have never understood the rational for open carry. Why would anyone want to give away the element of surprise?

Cus is legal, also... quoting myself...

Those who wish to eliminate the RKBA use many tactics to disarm citizens, and we have many tactics to fight back. I am going to talk about Open Carry, but I am going to not be using the debate on which is better on Conceal Carry and Open Carry, but I am going to be talking about viewpoint of the RKBA.

Many people do not own firearms, but are not by there nature "Anti-gun". They do not know much about guns and follow what the media and from personal knowledge. Many of us "Gunners" do not broadcast that we enjoy firearms, and many times miss chances to inform the public on responsible firearm ownership.

However look at what the anti-gun groups, and some segments of the media want to tell all. Guns are owned not by law abiding citizens, but by criminals and crazy gun nuts who are part of a anti-government militia, or by "rednecks" and other types. Not the family man, not the respectable business owner, not the man who remembers that his grandpa used a shotgun to protect his family from a lynching.

However open carry in states that allow that make people realize that many normal citizens own and carry firearms, and that its not a big deal. Just because someone has a gun does not mean that they are there to hold up a store or carry out a crime. that and as people start seeing a firearm on a normal basis, they start loosing the irrational fear of firearms that the anti-gunners and media would like citizens to have, to replaced by the rational respect of a useful tool of life and liberty that is no more dangerous then a table saw, (aka, something that if you follow some basic safety rules, you will be ok). If we always hide our guns and no one sees them, they will think that no one will be loosing there RKBA.

 

[zxcvbob]

But think about it. Some creep sticks a Glock in your face and demands your wallet. He will have the upper hand. No matter how quick your draw is, the odds are very good that even if you're carrying, he'll still be able to make a canoe out of your head before you can even reach your gun. Granted, most of us do try to be more aware of our surroundings, but no one is going to be on guard all the time. It just isn't going to happen. If it were possible, none of us would need to carry because we'd all be able to see trouble coming and avoid it. And that brings us back to why crime works - because we're not constantly expecting to be victimized.
OC, on the other hand, does make sense as a deterrent. If I were some creep, I wouldn't try any crap with the man who had a 7.5 inch Colt Single Action Army strapped to his hip. I think my instincts for self preservation would take over and steer me toward an easier target.

I think the idea is that if the BG has the drop on you, you passively comply until he is distracted or something, then you pounce. For example, after he has your wallet and it turning away, you draw, fire 2 to the back and 1 to the head, and recover your wallet If you are OC'ing, you might never get a chance to play The Punisher.

Last, a cop needs more justification to show up with his weapon drawn than just a vague report of a man with a gun. For all the more they know, it could be an off duty cop whose shirt rode up over the handle of his handgun (or a legally armed citizen). A report of someone carrying a handgun is not a blank check for the police to show up and just go to work shooting anyone who looks like they might maybe be dangerous. Especially if openly carrying a handgun is totally legal in your state.

*That* is the real reason for CC'ing. To avoid being hassled (and maybe shot) by the cops. A secondary reason is to avoid scaring the women and children if you are carrying in church or at a PTA meeting.

 

[px4storm]

For once I am actually happy that I live in Akron! Our Police Department understands and is trained that it is legal to OC!

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/attachment.php?id=948

This is a link to the official training document for APD.

 

[Deanimator]

How many of these charges hold up in court?

As long as you keep your wits about you and have minimally competent legal counsel (a poorly housebroken chimp would do), pretty much NONE. On the contrary, these things regularly end up with settlements by or judgements against the cities and officers involved. If there's malice or threats of harassment, HAMMER the officers involved MERCILESSLY. In these cases, a voice recorder of some sort is your friend. Ohio is a one party consent state. As long as one party to a conversation consents to be recorded, that recording is legal. You're perfectly right to consent to record any conversations in which you take part. Lawyers generally take off running with a recording of a cop threatening to harass you for engaging in a lawful activity. And since threats of unlawful harassment are outside of the scope of his duties, the officer in question has pierced his own qualified immunity, leaving him wide open to being sued as an individual, along with the jurisdiction.

There are a growing number of lawsuits against officers who engage in this sort of criminal behavior, especially in Ohio, Pennsylvania and Virginia. Check them out at OpenCarry.Org. There are a few cops around the country who are going to have some pretty punishing financial burdens because of their immature, unprofessional, and indeed criminal behavior. I hope they enjoy their wages being garnished and their property attached to satisfy the judgements against them.

 

[ilbob]

I would not get real paranoid about it. Cops harass people all the time over things that are not illegal. I think it was some NYPD cops that killed a fellow sitting on his own front porch not too long ago. He did nothing to offend them, no threat at all. They just up and decided to hassle him and ended up murdering him.

You won't win an argument with them when they approach you either. They are in full "you will comply or else" mode at that point. Their brains basically stop working then and ego and testosterone takes over. If you let your ego and testosterone take over as well, you will end up in jail. Be the adult. Identify them and write down everything that happened and was said so you can file a coherent complaint later.

In most cases it will do no good, but at least you gave it a try. The reason for this is that cops in departments where the complaint would be taken seriously generally don't misbehave like this in the first place. Cops in departments that accept this kind of nonsense, are rarely deterred by citizen complaints.

If you get no satisfaction with the department, take it to the politicians. Make a polite nuisance of yourself until you get the right attention. You may not get anything directly, but police departments do not want attention from the politicians, and the fact that their inappropriate behavior caught the eye of the politicians may help the next guy.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The cop does have a point. If someone calls 911 to report an armed man strolling through the streets, the police has to react with equal force. Maybe it's a matter of principle, but I have never understood the rational for open carry. Why would anyone want to give away the element of surprise?

No, they do not have to respond with "equal force." First, if they don't know more than just "There's a man with a gun at First and Elm," the dispatcher isn't doing his/her job. The dispatcher should be asking what type of gun and what the person is doing with the gun before even contacting an officer to respond.

Second, especially if open carry is legal, the dispatcher should be asking the caller if the "man with a gun" is breaking any laws. If the answer is just "well he's wearing it in a holster on his belt," what's wrong with the dispatcher simply explaining that doing so is legal. There is no valid reason to dispatch a SWAT team for a report of "Suspicion of lawful activity."

 

[goon]

I think the idea is that if the BG has the drop on you, you passively comply until he is distracted or something, then you pounce. For example, after he has your wallet and it turning away, you draw, fire 2 to the back and 1 to the head, and recover your wallet If you are OC'ing, you might never get a chance to play The Punisher.

So after you give the BG your wallet and he decides that he's going to leave and not hurt you, then you shoot him in the back?
How do you justify that legally when he is no longer a threat?
To me, carrying a firearm whether it's openly carried or concealed hasn't got anything to do with playing The Punisher. I hate to say this man, but if that's what it is to you then we'd all be better off it you didn't carry at all.
Plus, again, CCW isn't going to deter anyone specifically because you look just like any other sheeple to them. They can't tell you're armed so you look like any other target.
Open carry may not deter anyone either, but it just might.
But whether it does or not isn't the issue.
It's a right. I support people who choose to exercise it. It's that simple to me.

*That* is the real reason for CC'ing. To avoid being hassled (and maybe shot) by the cops.

And why are the cops hassling you or shooting for doing something legal in the first place?
In other words, why aren't the cops on our side like they're supposed to be?
I don't like criminals doing stuff that gets decent people hurt and I'd assume that cops don't either.
If we're all working toward the same goal, why do cops have any business creating a problem where none is supposed to exist?
As I said before, I'm all for being smart and pragmatic about working toward changing laws or fixing messed up policies, but I've heard your argument before and it didn't make any sense to me then either.
Instead of accepting it when the police do something wrong, why not work to hold them accountable and make them stop doing it?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Yes, the cops do have to 'respond with equal force.' And in this case, what is that?

A man walking down the street with a holstered pistol. Equal force would be cops approaching with holstered pistols and assessing whether a crime has been committed.

Disproportionate force would be the SWAT team scenario, and in the case of legal open carry, would be legally actionable against the PD in civil court.

 

[Mike Franklin]

Small town Rural Officers/Deputies are more likely to know and be familiar with gun laws. Any time an Officer/Deputy harasses you file a complaint and report it to the media.
I'm saying this having been in LE for 31+ years.
I will bet you that this is Department Policy and the LEOs have been told that they must do this.
A pocket recorder is not illegal either.
Also, if you are leaving a store and Cops stop you in the parking lot then search your car they have just violated your Civil Rights. If they order you out of your car or you are in your car they may 'Frisk' the vehicle.

 

[ASM826]

Yea, but...

I'm pretty sure in most cases you can mount a crew served quad 50 on your riding lawnmower if that's what you want to do.

Yea, but it wrecks the gas mileage, and it makes it way more likely to get stuck when I cut the tall grass over the septic tank.

 

[akodo]

I'd prefer CC for the element of surprise. OC does not make a man more free.

I agree with your tactical assessment, but you statement about freedom is DEAD WRONG.

Being able to CHOOSE to conceal, open carry, or not carry at all is FREEDOM.

Having any govnerment interfere with any of those 3 choices (even a requirement to be armed) is infringing your freedoms.

Also, tactically, while I agree a hidden gun on your person is best, an openly carried gun on your person is better than a gun hidden in your car.

 

[akodo]

Quote:
I'm pretty sure in most cases you can mount a crew served quad 50 on your riding lawnmower if that's what you want to do.

Yea, but it wrecks the gas mileage, and it makes it way more likely to get stuck when I cut the tall grass over the septic tank

and it negates the warranty

 

[erictank]

Yea, but...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
I'm pretty sure in most cases you can mount a crew served quad 50 on your riding lawnmower if that's what you want to do.

Yea, but it wrecks the gas mileage, and it makes it way more likely to get stuck when I cut the tall grass over the septic tank.

You mean you'd USE it?!? Not me.

Well, okay, I'd HAVE to find a way to get it to Knob Creek at least once (and realistically speaking, as often as I could afford it). Other than that, it can sit there and look pretty (with occasional preventative maintenance) until the zombies rise. I'll buy another lawnmower for the grass...

 

[zxcvbob]

So after you give the BG your wallet and he decides that he's going to leave and not hurt you, then you shoot him in the back?
How do you justify that legally when he is no longer a threat?

That was my point. I just chose an over-the-top way of making it.

To me, carrying a firearm whether it's openly carried or concealed hasn't got anything to do with playing The Punisher. I hate to say this man, but if that's what it is to you then we'd all be better off it you didn't carry at all.
Plus, again, CCW isn't going to deter anyone specifically because you look just like any other sheeple to them. They can't tell you're armed so you look like any other target.
Open carry may not deter anyone either, but it just might.

I don't currently carry a gun, open or concealed. I don't want to have to go to the sheriff with my hat in my hand and ask permission (and be fingerprinted and pay a big fee) to exercise my rights. And things aren't bad enough here for me to carry anyway without a permit.

 

[gallo]

Goon and Aguila Blanca,

Thank you for your constructive feedback to my post. I agree, OC should be a personal choice if it works for the individual's circumstances. I personally would prefer to avoid any situation with LEOs that may cause them to get on the defensive more so than they already are. Just the other day my car broke down on the service road. I was standing 50 feet behind the car alerting traffic while waiting for the tow truck. Then a policeman pulled up. As he got out of the car and approached me he briefly placed his hand on the gun. Perhaps to straighten it or perhaps to send me a message. I'm not sure, but I can just imagine if at that moment I would have had a gun in plain sight. He was very helpful and waited until the tow truck arrived. That was very good, because just before he arrived a car with three teens had driven by slowly, then after he arrived the same car drove by again and that time they shouted if I needed help. Maybe they were sincerely offering to help, although they had not offered the first time, or maybe they just said that to not cause suspicion with the LEO. Who knows. I gave them the benefit of the doubt and waved them off.

My point is that if I had been CC 1, would not have put the LEO more on the defensive, and 2, if the teens on the car had malicious intentions and I was alone I still would have been able to defend myself.

******

OP, if you don't like people posting contrasting opinions to your post, I suggest you don't post until you get a little more maturity. Calling people OC haters and 2nd amendment haters for expressing a legitimate concern to OC is beneath this forum.

 

[Harley Man]

I would have as the cop to quote the law, statute, or city ordance that does not allow OC in his yard. Be polite and tell him I need that information so I can ensure I don't violate that law in the future. 10 - 1 says the cops can't even give you an answer. I respect and admire police for what they do and the little pay they get, I take my hat off to them, but just because there a cop DOES NOT MEAN they know the law.

Stay Safe out there, and give no reason for Barney to load that one bullet!

 

[jonmerritt]

Police do not have to resond with equal force, according to the supreme court, they do not have to respond at all, neither does the fire department. And that just gives us all the more reason to defend ourselves and take the second amendment even more, to heart.

 

[FieroCDSP]

With the rash of OC harrassments that have happened in Ohio lately, and the Ohioans For Concealed Carry work to "deal" with those departments in the form of demanding better training on the gun laws, etc, rather than a law suit, some good things have happened. Hopefully the AG's office will get all the departments trained on proper dealing with OC.

Until then, knowing the law yourself is your best defense. OC is completely separate from your CHL status in Ohio, save transporting in a vehicle. With a CHL, you can OC in your car, rather than having to unload and secure it. You do not have to declare an openly carried weapon to an officer, nor, with the exception of in a vehicle, do you have to declare your CHL while OC. It might be prudent to mention it, but it's not required, except for a concealed firearm.
OC in a holster is not brandishing nor inducing panic, by determination of the AG's office. A few of the recent incidents has cleared this up, as the officers were out of line in threatening to haul the individuals in for such crimes, which had not been committed as defined by the law.

The "CHL holder OC's in posted establishment" issue is still not defined and hopefully will be cleared up soon.

 

[papajohn]

Paranoid, idiot cops are everywhere. (I can say that, I worked with some doozies.) I was sanding a riflestock on my front porch (which overlooked a 4-lane road) when a local cop saw me, screeched to a halt, and marched up my front lawn to tell me I had to go inside. I was, in his words, "Guilty of a threatening act." Not just accused, but already Guilty! I demanded to talk to his supervisor, who responded quickly, and we got the whole thing straightened out. It was pretty funny, in hindsight. By the time the Sgt got done with this moron, he was about three feet tall.

The same cop (I think, most morons share similar features) later tried to arrest me for playing street Frisbee at 3AM, when the only people in sight were me, my buddy, and the cop. He said we were "Creating a public hazard." His supervisor also responded, and practically had to drag him away by the arm, he was practically rabid, as I was explaining the facts of life to him. That time I got his name, and I had the pleasure of locking up his wife for DWI a few months later. When he came to post bond, and saw me in uniform, he about soiled himself.

Missouri doesn't have any provision for open carry as yet, but I worked armed and in uniform, and people seem genuinely glad to see me when I stop in at convenience stores and Stop 'N Robs on the way to work. You'd think folks would be HAPPY to see armed citizens, too!

Papajohn

 

[Harley Man]

papajohn dude you are a diamond in the weeds. Why in the heck can't more Police Officers ack like PapaJohn
Thanks for being out there for us, and Kudo's for all the sane officers that protect the good citiziens of this country. I fear the bad cops just get to much press, I contend the lions share are super at what they do.

 

[publiuss]

Pappy, I think I would try to get him to repeat that threat to arrest you for legally carrying. Then I would file charges against him and hit the county w/a huge civil suit for violating your rights. I am not the type of guy who likes lawsuits, but this would justify one. Just another case of jack booted leo's threatening citizens and violating their rights. Get it on tape, get him impeached, and lastly, thrown in his own jail.

 

[Deanimator]

Missouri doesn't have any provision for open carry as yet,

However, depending upon where you are, the cops may just ignore it.

Back in the '70s when I was going to college in Fulton, there was a farmer who made regular trips to the Calloway Bank carrying large sums of money. He open carried and nobody said a word.