The P320: your gun handling skills are the problem

[MCMXI]

burk, I'm not comparing anything, just pointing out that there was a recall for a safety issue whereas you stated that there wasn't. This was a recall afterall and not broad based but specific to GLOCK.

What I find telling is that the most noise is coming from those that don't actually own a P320. We have two and aren't even vaguely concerned about this.

 

[wally]

I dunno, I could totally see Chow Yun-fat starring in a John Woo movie where he tosses down the SIG of a bad guy he disarms in order to get the gun to fire up and shoot another bad guy through the face. Maybe that's what it is. SIG could patent this Woo feature. It's not unsafe to drop, it's deadly to throw.

Yeah like in True Lies when Jamie Lee dropped that MAC-10 down the stairs and wiped out a bunch of Jihadi
Its a feature, not a bug!

 

[JR24]

Saw this on 1911Forum and couldn't resist...

 

[ECVMatt]

It depends upon what your definition of drop is.....

 

[Old Dog]

Well, only four pages here thus far, compared to 45 (as of 11:30 PST) on the sigforum.

So, company makes a new handgun. Performs all testing requirements as mandated by the industry, government regulations and governmental entities looking to procure said handgun. Handgun passes all tests. Much later, a handful of cases emerge on the internet indicating that if dropped at a different angle than required by any previously mentioned testing protocols, the gun might fire.

Company initially reacts sluggishly and minimizes the alleged drop-test firings. A week later, company finishes obfuscating and admits there may be a slight problem, but it's being addressed and a fix is in place. 'Course, nothing we haven't seen in the auto industry a few hundred times a year since the early '60s, but let's all get our panties in a wad.

At least the SIG fans (of which I am one) aren't reacting as crazily as the Glock fanboys did when the Gen-4s started taking a beating on the internet ...

 

[Kano383]

MCMX, Seriously you're comparing...

That's MCMXI, not MCMX...... XLV, not XLIV.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

3) While other companies have had issues and some recalls, for the most part, they deal with safety issues promptly and with apology. True, Glock has had some issues with roll outs, but none that were safety issues if the gun was used as recommended.

Perhaps you missed the (late) Taurus settlements and recall of the PT line with the huge drop firing issues:
https://www.ammoland.com/2015/08/taurus-settlement-and-drop-safety-recall/
http://concealednation.org/2015/11/...ols-are-dropped-then-learn-about-the-lawsuit/
http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/index.ssf/2015/07/taurus_agrees_to_voluntary_rec.html

 

[Tirod]

I think a lot of armchair range shooters are getting it all wrong. They consistently insist that SIG has done wrong when the facts are open and out in the public.

SIG not only passed all industry drop testing standards, they added more. SIG is not being incompetent or bush league about any of it. THE DROP TEST VIDEO PRODUCERS ARE. They are performing abuse that has no support in the drop testing protocols, they are not firearms engineers, they are just video commandos jumping to conclusions for the youtube results. And they make MONEY on hits. It's to their advantage to sensationalize this.

Supporting them throwing guns onto concrete or hammering on them isn't High Road, neither is jumping to conclusions and smearing SIG.

Bottom line - if you drop your gun, you are the problem. I note very carefully that the PROFESSIONALS in the trade aren't the ones making videos or claims on line - other than to suggest that it's actually video rabble rousers and their fans who are really making the uproar.

Again - who literally is going to make money on this, to the detriment of SIG? Who took advantage of a very narrow window of opportunity to raise a non existent issue where SIG was already stockpiling parts and had production scheduled to halt in order to retro fit 500,000 guns for free?

Somebody saw time slipping away and took a page out of the political handbook - Never Let A Crisis Go To Waste.

You are being manipulated by the same media masters who aren't getting any money from politics in the off season. Supporting the witch hunt against SIG isn't High Road. They have gone above and beyond to fix an issue that has 4 of 500,000 guns reported.

More people have shot themselves in the leg with a Glock, yet Glock is not at fault and their trigger is perfectly safe? If you mishandle a SIG and it falls on the floor, tho, the public is in full torches and pitchforks mode blaming SIG.

I don't see how that is High Road. I see it as being one sided and blind to the facts. Mishandling firearms is the cause for either negligent discharge. Not accepting your responsibility as a gun handler and blaming others for your defective skills is the issue.

Stop avoiding responsibility and face up to it.

 

[TomJ]

The issue we run into with these situations is that too many people lose their objectivity. On one side we have the manufacturer of the product in question and their supporters. The manufacturer has a financial stake, where too many of their supporters have an emotional one. To them everyone else seems to be to blame, including competitors, the people releasing the videos, the people who came up with the drop test standards and of course their customers, on whom an impossible standard is placed in that the problem would go away if would never drop a gun. On the other side we have their competitors and their supporters. Those manufacturers benefit from seeing Sig falter and their supporters, in their mind receive confirmation that the gun they chose is superior to any other option. These supporters seem to take delight in someone else's problems, something they need to give some thought to. The people on either side dig their heels in and there's no talking to them. The supporters can't accept the fact that the P320 is an excellent gun which has a flaw that needs to be corrected. The detractors can't accept the fact that while their gun of choice works for them, the P320 may be a better fit for others.

The simple fact is that Sig should have handled this differently. They could have reaffirming that the P320 went through numerous drop tests and met industry standards, but an issue that was not uncovered during that testing occurred and now that they're aware of it, they're correcting it. Any reasonable person would have been fine with that. Instead they chose to do what too many companies and people do in trying to dance around the issue. I experienced this first hand during my conversations with them this week.

The P320RX is a gift for people like me with "middle age eyes". I can see most sights in day light and can see night sights in the dark, but have a hard time seeing them in low light conditions. Sig did a great job with the RX, producing an accurate, reliable (over a thousand rounds and counting without a single failure) gun with a quality red dot sight at a great price point. The other two P320's I own have also never had a failure, nor have the other four Sigs I own. I'm a fan, but one who can accept the fact that they dropped the ball on this one.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

I think a lot of armchair range shooters are getting it all wrong. They consistently insist that SIG has done wrong when the facts are open and out in the public.

SIG not only passed all industry drop testing standards, they added more. SIG is not being incompetent or bush league about any of it. THE DROP TEST VIDEO PRODUCERS ARE. They are performing abuse that has no support in the drop testing protocols, they are not firearms engineers, they are just video commandos jumping to conclusions for the youtube results. And they make MONEY on hits. It's to their advantage to sensationalize this.

Supporting them throwing guns onto concrete or hammering on them isn't High Road, neither is jumping to conclusions and smearing SIG.

Bottom line - if you drop your gun, you are the problem. I note very carefully that the PROFESSIONALS in the trade aren't the ones making videos or claims on line - other than to suggest that it's actually video rabble rousers and their fans who are really making the uproar.

Again - who literally is going to make money on this, to the detriment of SIG? Who took advantage of a very narrow window of opportunity to raise a non existent issue where SIG was already stockpiling parts and had production scheduled to halt in order to retro fit 500,000 guns for free?

Somebody saw time slipping away and took a page out of the political handbook - Never Let A Crisis Go To Waste.

You are being manipulated by the same media masters who aren't getting any money from politics in the off season. Supporting the witch hunt against SIG isn't High Road. They have gone above and beyond to fix an issue that has 4 of 500,000 guns reported.

More people have shot themselves in the leg with a Glock, yet Glock is not at fault and their trigger is perfectly safe? If you mishandle a SIG and it falls on the floor, tho, the public is in full torches and pitchforks mode blaming SIG.

I don't see how that is High Road. I see it as being one sided and blind to the facts. Mishandling firearms is the cause for either negligent discharge. Not accepting your responsibility as a gun handler and blaming others for your defective skills is the issue.

Stop avoiding responsibility and face up to it.

Following this reasoning, if you drop your Sig and it fires and kills someone would you be guilty of 1st degree murder?
You knew it could fire if dropped.
You carried the gun anyway.
You failed to hone your gun handling skills to the point of 100 percent perfection in every situation.
Sounds premeditated.

What if Sig's went full auto when dropped?
Would that be over the line?

 

[pblanc]

It is not just a bunch of "video commandos" doing drop tests on the P320. SIG Sauer has done tests in response to the videos and confirmed there is a potential for the pistol to drop fire. The Houston PD, which will be sending all of their P320s back to SIG for replacement, did their own drop tests and confirmed a 10+% failure rate. And in Bruce Gray's statement on Grayguns yesterday he said:

"We are independently evaluating those claims here at Grayguns, and it appears that there is some merit to claims that some P320s may unintentionally discharge after being dropped at a specific angle."

 

[BILLG]

You people don't seem to understand that the p 320 passed all industry standard tests and then some.It passed them all.So the p 320 is just as safe as any gun out there. I am still carrying mine and may or may not send it back for the upgrade.You guys sound like Clinton voters after the election.And where is the documentation on the Houston PD tests.

 

[pblanc]

Joseph Gamaldi is a Vice-President of the Board of Directors of the Houston Police Officers Union:

http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10213635479340215&id=1200829103

The ANSI, SAAMI, and Department of Justice drop test protocols include muzzle up drop tests but not at the 30 degree angle off the vertical that appears to result in drop fires with the P320 with some consistency. When the P320 is dropped muzzle up with the bore axis aligned with the vertical, the pistol impacts on the beaver tail initially which damps much of the subsequent impact to the back of the slide. When dropped at the 30 degree angle, the slide and beaver tail strike simultaneously and the force of impact to the rear of the slide is considerably greater.

Passing drop test protocols does not prove a pistol is drop safe if the protocols are insufficiently inclusive to include a scenario that has significant potential to occur in real life. I don't really give a damn about all the drop tests that the P320 has passed. I am interested in the ones it has failed, the exact circumstances of those failures, the likelihood that such an event might occur in my hands with one of my P320s, or in the hands of a P320 owner that I happen to be close to, and the potential severity of such a result.

Although the likelihood of a muzzle up drop at 30 degrees is probably pretty low in the real world, it is certainly not zero, and when weighting the significance of adverse effects, not only the frequency but the severity of the outcome must be considered. I think most would agree that the potential severity of a muzzle up drop fire is considerably worse than that of a muzzle down drop fire.

I have no argument with someone who critically assesses the evidence and decides that the likelihood of such an event occurring in their hands is low enough that it does not warrant concern. But I am certainly not going to assume that the P320 is 100% safe because SIG Sauer says they tested it and tells me it is.

 

[ATLDave]

You people don't seem to understand that the p 320 passed all industry standard tests and then some.It passed them all.So the p 320 is just as safe as any gun out there.

The first two sentences, even if true, do not prove the third sentence. At all.

As I said before, I like Sig. I own a Sig product. I do not like Glocks, and do not own a Glock product. I have no emotional or financial interest in this one way or the other.

But I can see that multiple credible parties are able to demonstrate a fairly plausible scenario in which some models of the P320 are not drop-safe. You may think that's OK for a modern duty sidearm. Most of the firearm community does not. Guns get dropped.

 

[JR24]

You people don't seem to understand that the p 320 passed all industry standard tests and then some.It passed them all.So the p 320 is just as safe as any gun out there.

Unless you object to the validity of the various drop tests referenced recently (even Sig and Bruce Gray are no longer refuting them) then this statement is objectively false.

Sig will fix it and all will be good, but seriously people, turn off the blinders for a minute.

 

[sequins]

The difference between a double feed or other operation induced error and drop safety is substantial.

Drop safety is more concerning because it's likely I won't anticipate the fall, or punch, or vehicular impact etc. that triggers the drop. Furthermore, I can't apply any care or consideration to the drop because it's fundamentally unexpected.

In the case of an operation induced malfunction like a double feed that will only occur when I am intentionally shooting. I will be mentally prepared through training to safely and effectively clear the failure. A doublefeed issue is one primarily of reliability, and only tangentially related to safety insofar as clearing the jam must be safely done.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

I don't see how that is High Road.

Of course, only your side of the discussion is the High Road. Viewpoints that disagree are the Low Road.

Mishandling firearms is the cause for either negligent discharge. Not accepting your responsibility as a gun handler and blaming others for your defective skills is the issue.

Stop avoiding responsibility and face up to it.

Let's test this logic by applying it to other consumer products. How about automobiles?

"Mishandling automobiles is the cause of car accidents...Stop avoiding responsibility and face up to it." Is this a valid reason for auto makers to ignore common sense safety features?

How about electricity?

"Mishandling electricity is the cause of electrocution...Stop avoiding responsibility and face up to it." Is this a valid reason for appliance makers and professional electricians to ignore common sense safety features?

 

[Mitlov]

I think a lot of armchair range shooters are getting it all wrong. They consistently insist that SIG has done wrong when the facts are open and out in the public.

SIG not only passed all industry drop testing standards, they added more. SIG is not being incompetent or bush league about any of it. THE DROP TEST VIDEO PRODUCERS ARE. They are performing abuse that has no support in the drop testing protocols, they are not firearms engineers, they are just video commandos jumping to conclusions for the youtube results. And they make MONEY on hits. It's to their advantage to sensationalize this.

Supporting them throwing guns onto concrete or hammering on them isn't High Road, neither is jumping to conclusions and smearing SIG.

Bottom line - if you drop your gun, you are the problem. I note very carefully that the PROFESSIONALS in the trade aren't the ones making videos or claims on line - other than to suggest that it's actually video rabble rousers and their fans who are really making the uproar.

Again - who literally is going to make money on this, to the detriment of SIG? Who took advantage of a very narrow window of opportunity to raise a non existent issue where SIG was already stockpiling parts and had production scheduled to halt in order to retro fit 500,000 guns for free?

Somebody saw time slipping away and took a page out of the political handbook - Never Let A Crisis Go To Waste.

You are being manipulated by the same media masters who aren't getting any money from politics in the off season. Supporting the witch hunt against SIG isn't High Road. They have gone above and beyond to fix an issue that has 4 of 500,000 guns reported.

More people have shot themselves in the leg with a Glock, yet Glock is not at fault and their trigger is perfectly safe? If you mishandle a SIG and it falls on the floor, tho, the public is in full torches and pitchforks mode blaming SIG.

I don't see how that is High Road. I see it as being one sided and blind to the facts. Mishandling firearms is the cause for either negligent discharge. Not accepting your responsibility as a gun handler and blaming others for your defective skills is the issue.

Stop avoiding responsibility and face up to it.

This didn't start with a YouTube video. This started with a Stamford, CT police officer being shot by his own gun and the Houston PD sending back all their Sigs. So while the professionals aren't personally posting the videos, the professionals ARE concerned. This isn't something that we just made up by YouTube channels for clicks. Because the professionals realize that being on patrol is not being at the range, things happen, and in that setting firearms can be dropped without the officer being at fault or negligent.

 

[MCMXI]

So while the professionals aren't personally posting the videos, the professionals ARE concerned. This isn't something that we just made up by YouTube channels for clicks. Because the professionals realize that being on patrol is not being at the range, things happen, and in that setting firearms can be dropped without the officer being at fault or negligent.

And LE are the gold standard when it comes to firearms ....

"Glock uses the marketing term “Safe Action” to describe its firing-pin system, but the truth is that Glocks are accident-prone. They contributed to more than 120 accidental discharges in the Washington Metropolitan Police Department from 1988 to 1998."

 

[ATLDave]

Whether LE officers are the "gold standard" in firearms proficiency isn't really relevant. They are a big intended market.

Unlike the ease with which Glocks* (and every other short-triggered, no-manual-safety) guns can discharge into the user's own leg, a 30° muzzle-up discharge is a serious danger to everyone in the vicinity.

* BTW, I dislike Glocks and don't/won't own one. Doesn't mean I want to own a gun with a trigger that pulls itself if it lands muzzle up.

 

[JohnBiltz]

I think a lot of armchair range shooters are getting it all wrong. They consistently insist that SIG has done wrong when the facts are open and out in the public.

SIG not only passed all industry drop testing standards, they added more. SIG is not being incompetent or bush league about any of it. THE DROP TEST VIDEO PRODUCERS ARE. They are performing abuse that has no support in the drop testing protocols, they are not firearms engineers, they are just video commandos jumping to conclusions for the youtube results. And they make MONEY on hits. It's to their advantage to sensationalize this.

Supporting them throwing guns onto concrete or hammering on them isn't High Road, neither is jumping to conclusions and smearing SIG.

Bottom line - if you drop your gun, you are the problem. I note very carefully that the PROFESSIONALS in the trade aren't the ones making videos or claims on line - other than to suggest that it's actually video rabble rousers and their fans who are really making the uproar.

Again - who literally is going to make money on this, to the detriment of SIG? Who took advantage of a very narrow window of opportunity to raise a non existent issue where SIG was already stockpiling parts and had production scheduled to halt in order to retro fit 500,000 guns for free?

Somebody saw time slipping away and took a page out of the political handbook - Never Let A Crisis Go To Waste.

You are being manipulated by the same media masters who aren't getting any money from politics in the off season. Supporting the witch hunt against SIG isn't High Road. They have gone above and beyond to fix an issue that has 4 of 500,000 guns reported.

More people have shot themselves in the leg with a Glock, yet Glock is not at fault and their trigger is perfectly safe? If you mishandle a SIG and it falls on the floor, tho, the public is in full torches and pitchforks mode blaming SIG.

I don't see how that is High Road. I see it as being one sided and blind to the facts. Mishandling firearms is the cause for either negligent discharge. Not accepting your responsibility as a gun handler and blaming others for your defective skills is the issue.

Stop avoiding responsibility and face up to it.

So what you are saying is if a Sig falls in the woods and there is not a professional there to see it, then it did not happen.

 

[MCMXI]

* BTW, I dislike Glocks and don't/won't own one. Doesn't mean I want to own a gun with a trigger that pulls itself if it lands muzzle up.

No one here is saying that the issue doesn't need to be fixed ... at least I don't think they are. I'll certainly send our P320s back to SIG since I want the pistols to be the best they can be and and an improved fire control group will achieve that. But I'm simply not that concerned about any of this and don't feel that SIG has let me down in any way. It should come as no surprise that everyone reacts differently to this sort of thing. If you like SIG products and have had a positive experience with them you're probably more likely to have a positive reaction with regards to this situation.

 

[ATLDave]

No one here is saying that the issue doesn't need to be fixed ... at least I don't think they are.

I think the OP is saying precisely that, and that drop-safe-ness is just a cover for user incompetence, and that we should solely blame those who drop guns for any discharges, regardless of the design.

I, too, am confident Sig will fix this. The market is now demanding it. The free market works most of the time. We're seeing it work right now. In this case, it involves a large portion of the target market unequivocally expressing an expectation that the product be "fixed" to conform to their expectations.

 

[Elkins45]

I like guns that don't go off when dropped. Does that make me a fanboy or a hater? At this point I'm not really sure.

 

[JR24]

I like guns that don't go off when dropped. Does that make me a fanboy or a hater? At this point I'm not really sure.

Both, and neither.

Clear it up for ya?