Pistol cartrdges in rifles, ballistically speaking.

[shotgunner]

In the .44 Magnum, and .357 leverguns. How much does the fps and energy increase, on average, when compared to shooting those two cartridges from a pistol?
I think a .44 pistol and a .44 lever would make an excellent combination for a week or two in the woods.

What do you guys think about the ballistics improvement when those two cartridges are fired from rifles? It seems that all of the data out there for these cartridges is from them being fired in handguns.

Thanks!

 

[Strongbad]

Because of the powders used with pistol cartridges (i.e. fast burning) the difference in velocity between a rifle and a pistol is usually going to be negligible. There are a few exceptions but for the most part there isn't going to be much difference.

 

[SoundWave]

The ballistic increase on those popular revolver calibers is, in a word, significant! Check out Buffalo Bore ammunition.

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#357

This stuff is hotter than Hades.

The only round I've fired from them was the "19D/20-125gr. Gold Dot" in .357 mag from my 16' Winchester lever action carbine. The load was chrono'ed at something like 2000 fps.

The website claims 2298 fps out of the 18 inch barrel and that doesn't surprise me! This stuff is LOUD and HOT. Woo!

If you are intrested in .44 mag buffalo bore has heavy .44 mag ammunition too. There is a brief explination on the .44 mag +P+, which... in the proper lever action platform... would probably be very powerful. Can you imagen the 340 gr. breaking 2000 fps!? That'd be a feat...but might be possible!

 

[nipprdog]

SoundWave beat me to correcting Strongbad's misinformation.

while there is generally a small increase in 9,40, and 45 calibers(10-15%at best), there is a BIG difference in Magnun revolver velocities.

which is what he was enqiuiring about.

 

[115grfmj]

The previous poster couldn't have been more wrong !!!

The slower burning powders used in magnum handgun cartridges (aka .44mag
.357 mag etc), make very good use of the extra barrel length. I've chronied
my favorite load from both my 18.5" barreled 1894c, and my 4" barreled
686+. Sellier&bellot 158gr jsp get around 1300fps out of my 686, and 1900fps
to 1950 out of my 1894c . A huge increase in power downrange !!!!

 

[pauli]

strongbad was right... just not about magnum revolver rounds.

anyway. it's my understanding that 357 in a levergun ends up being quite similar to 30-30.

 

[Chuck Dye]

The Oehler Ballistic Explorer ammo Library lists the Federal 240grainers (cat # 44A and C44a)) at 1760fps from a 20 inch barrel and 1180 fps from a 6.5 inch barrel; Remington’s cat #’s R44MG2 and R44MG3 240 grain bullets at 1760fps from a 20 inch barrel and 1180fps from a 4 inch barrel; and Remington’s R44MG6 at 1920fps from the 20 inch barrel, 1495fps from a 6.5 inch barrel. Nothing is said of vented test barrels to simulate revolvers.

The only .357 Mag load for which Oehler lists long and short barrel results is Federal’s C357G, 180 grain bullet at 1550fps out of an 18 inch barrel and 1090 from a 4 inch barrel. Again, no mention of vented test barrels.

YMMV

 

[MachIVshooter]

while there is generally a small increase in 9,40, and 45 calibers(10-15%at best), .

I would say 15-25%, which can mean a lot of kinetic energy with heavier bullets. Using 115 gr. Win. FMJ, there was an average increase of nearly 200 FPS from my 92 FS to my Cx4 Storm. Likewise, while my 230 gr. loads averaged 842 FPS from my Colt Mk IV and 855 FPS from my HK USP, the same loads averaged 1082 FPS from my Marlin Camp 45. Basically falling right in line with the 15-20 FPS velocity change for every inch of barrel that is more or less standard for a given handgun cartridge.

(BTW, these number equate a 65% increase in power for the .45 ACP from handgun to carbine, from 362 FPE in the Colt to 598 FPE in the Marlin)

 

[nipprdog]

I would say 15-25%, which can mean a lot of kinetic energy with heavier bullets.

actually, some, not all, heavier bullets(pistol, not Magnum revolver) will produce less significant, if not lower, velocities from longer barrels.



FWIW, I almost said 10-20% instead of 10-15%.

 

[Strongbad]

Ok ok ok... I recant my previous testimony. This is a little embarrasing, but nipprdog hit "my" nail on the head. I was definitely relating to cartridges like 9 mil, 40, 45 and the like that use fast fast powders. I was also thinking (in my own mind anyway) in terms of increases that'll occur in rifles, like 100 fps. per inch and the like (yes I know pistols work different and I'll explain more below). As you guys have presented you can get several hundred feet per second more with some rounds and while I know that percentage wise that can be a large increase, I was looking at it less dramatically? If that makes sense. My apologies.

 

[shotgunner]

Thanks you guys/gals. I read the posts. As I figured, the magnum loads do have an increase in performance, and with some manufacturers the performance is VERY noticeable. It's hard to believe that the .357 gets higher numbers than the 30/30 out of the 18.5" barrel. Very nice. I guess out of a rifle the .357 and .44 would make great all-around hunting rounds for most North American game, except for buffalo, but I think with good shot placement it could even take those without a problem!
Thanks for the info guys!

 

[Z_Infidel]

While it's true that certain .357 Mag loads now available do approach .30-30 performance on paper, I wouldn't make a general statement that the two cartridges are equivalent. My 1894C seems to shoot best with relatively inexpensive 158 gr SP ammo, which isn't going to give .30-30 performance. I think that in order to get into .30-30 territory with .357 Mag you will spend more money on both the gun and the ammo. If anything, the .357 Mag has proven to be very versatile in available loads and uses, which is a big plus.

I own the 1894C in .357 Mag and a 336C in .30-30 and I like them both. There is definitely some overlap between the two, but I don't consider them quite interchangeable.

 

[grendelbane]

There seems to be some dis-agreement on the differences in performance between carbine and pistol barrels, even when both parties are using similar numbers.

From my viewpoint, a 200 FPS increase in velocity is significant. I haven't run across a pistol caliber carbine which will not outperform a pistol with the same ammunition. Such a beast may exist, but I have not seen it, and I have fired chronoed several pistol caliber carbines.

As far as the .357 magnum trespassing on the .30/30's territory. The .30/30 will fire a higher sectional density bullet at a higher velocity. The .30/30 bullet will have a higher ballistic co-efficient, and will outperform the .357 magnum. It may come close, but it will still be the loser.

Great care must be taken in bullet selection for pistol caliber carbines, as the higher velocities of which they are capable can result in extremely reduced penetration.

Some people don't like the pistol caliber carbines. I think that they are great fun.

 

[rabbit]

Well if the government outlaws "assault weapons" completely, maybe we can hang on to these leverguns. They rock! Powerful, rapid fire, lethal and best of all- cheap. I want one. I heard some bad things about winchesters in pistol calibers on another thread. Oh well. Marlins may not be as pleasing to the eye, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.