I agree with elktrout, a decent sawed off 12 gauge and numbers 4's will do the job without a lot of over penetration. You can always go with another gauge if you want but the shotgun is best so as not to shoot people in the adjoining rooms.
Pistol or .308 Rifle or Shotgun for Home Defense?
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waffentomas
Member
I use all three.
My first reaction weapon is a Glock 20, loaded with 230gr DT Equalizer. I'll grab it when my three akitas are freaking out and giving their lives to buy me some time, and the house alarm is going off and and it's dialing the police.
I have a short barrelled shotgun loaded with #4, then "0" buck, close by which I'll reach for when the situation has stabilized a bit and we are holed up waiting for the police. I'll train it on the bedroom door.
If things really get out of hand, the .308 AP4 DPMS is nearby, loaded with Hornady 110gr TAP.
The kids are gone, so over penetration isn't a big issue.
If I could only afford one, I'd opt for the pistol, because I could always carry it from day-to-day as a CCW weapon. Even without CCW, I'd take the pistol if I could only have one.
Tom
My first reaction weapon is a Glock 20, loaded with 230gr DT Equalizer. I'll grab it when my three akitas are freaking out and giving their lives to buy me some time, and the house alarm is going off and and it's dialing the police.
I have a short barrelled shotgun loaded with #4, then "0" buck, close by which I'll reach for when the situation has stabilized a bit and we are holed up waiting for the police. I'll train it on the bedroom door.
If things really get out of hand, the .308 AP4 DPMS is nearby, loaded with Hornady 110gr TAP.
The kids are gone, so over penetration isn't a big issue.
If I could only afford one, I'd opt for the pistol, because I could always carry it from day-to-day as a CCW weapon. Even without CCW, I'd take the pistol if I could only have one.
Tom
The same arguments can be made against a shotgun.
Personally, I think the shotgun is a devastating close range HD weapon. If you like them, more power to you.
A carbine is just as handy as a shotgun at close range, has adequate ballistics, and is still useful for other things besides short range indoor defense. If need be, you can engage anything out to two hundred yards without switching ammunition types. Carbines also allow very precise fire.
Buck shot does not.
I agree with elktrout. I use a sawed off 12 gauge though mine is a double barrel, loaded with number 4's. Smaller shot may even be better because of over penetration. I also keep a 45 acp handy but the 12 would be the first thing I would grab. I do prefer a pump or automatic because of shot capacity but the double is not an expensive one so I didn't mind having it cut off. It now has 18 1/4 inch barrels and has 2 shells in the pipes and 2 spares handy. One other advantage of the long gun in home situations is you have more to hang on to which makes it harder to be taken away. The butt stock also makes a good blunt weapon if needed.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
A .223 without a muzzle brake is no louder (in terms of decibels) than a major-caliber centerfire pistol or an 18" barreled 12-gauge, though the pressure pulse may be a little longer and it may have a little more bass.
http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml
Table 1. SHOTGUN NOISE DATA (DECIBEL AVERAGES)
.410 Bore
28" barrel.............150dB
18 _" barrel.............156.30dB
12 Gauge
28" barrel...............151.50dB
26" barrel...............156.10dB
18 _" barrel.............161.50dB
Table 2. CENTERFIRE RIFLE DATA
.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 _" barrel.....155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel...........................155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel.........................156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel.....................157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel...........................156.2dB
.30-06 in 24" barrel.........................158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 _" barrel.......................163.2dB
.375 — 18" barrel with muzzle brake...........170 dB
Table 3. CENTERFIRE PISTOL DATA
.25 ACP...........155.0 dB
.32 LONG..........152.4 dB
.32 ACP...........153.5 dB
.380..............157.7 dB
9mm...............159.8 dB
.38 S&W...........153.5 dB
.38 Spl...........156.3 dB
.357 Magnum.......164.3 dB
.41 Magnum........163.2 dB
.44 Spl...........155.9 dB
.45 ACP...........157.0 dB
.45 COLT..........154.7 dB
Yes, a .223 fired in an enclosed space is EXTREMELY loud. So is any defensive-caliber centerfire pistol or 18" barreled 12-gauge. A NFA-length 14.5" barreled .223, or a .223 with a muzzle brake, might be louder than a pistol or shotgun, but not an unbraked .223 with a civilian >16" barrel.
And compare the .223 to the .357 revolver (louder probably because of the barrel-cylinder gap, which vents gas at much higher pressures than at the muzzle). Egads.
FWIW, I highlighted .30-30 because 7.62x39mm is ballistically similar. A typical AK with a 16" barrel will be a bit louder than the 20" .30-30 listed, and an AK-74 style brake will make it louder than an unbraked rifle.
Moral of the story is, firing pretty much ANY centerfire pistol, rifle, or shotgun indoors is going to be incredibly loud. But the sound levels are all pretty comparable.
MTMilitiaman
Member
Yeah, I've been in a room with several people firing M16s while I personally was firing a 12-round burst from an M249 with a 14.5 inch barrel, and while loud, it was not debilitating. With the effects of adrenaline, the sound is largely masked. You just notice the ringing in your ears and the headache afterwards.
And yes, a 7.62 loaded with ball ammo is going to be far from ideal, but then again, no one suggested that--not even the OP. So it is irrelevant.
And yes, a 7.62 loaded with ball ammo is going to be far from ideal, but then again, no one suggested that--not even the OP. So it is irrelevant.
Pulse
Member
something has to be wrong with those tests.
acording to those tests, a 9mm shot is almost 3 times louder then a 5.56mm shot
they are nowhere near comparable, ~3DB = ~Twice the soundpresure.
a .357magnum, acording to those tests, is almost 12 times louder then a 5.56..
excuse me? that can no possibly be true.
yes.. all are loud, but a Pistol round generating 12 times the sound of a Rifle?
can i ask how big that room was and if it was open to one side?
and did you have earmuffs?
as i said, i fired a 3 round burst out of a SIG550 in a ~2x8x3meters wide/long/high hallway/corridor made from reinforce concrete and it was during training .. so no adrenaline rush, maybe it is something complete diffrent in a hallway made from drywall and under the influence of adrenaline.. idont know and i dont want to test it.
fact is, that back then, i was not able to give a followup shot and would have been toast if i would have been alone and Mr. Evil Paper would have had a buddy..
Saiga Semi-auto 12 Gauge Shotgun??
What do people think of the Saiga 12 gauge semi-auto shotgun for home defense? Would this be the best of both worlds? I know its a bit spendier than the average 12 gauge, but to have semi-auto I think would be an advantage. Also, having loaded magazines you can quickly reload in hostile situation would be very important. Loading a gun is difficult under stress for even the experienced, much more a rookie! I was thinking about forking out the extra money for this shotgun/rifle and forgetting about a 12 gauge altogether. Any thoughts?
What do people think of the Saiga 12 gauge semi-auto shotgun for home defense? Would this be the best of both worlds? I know its a bit spendier than the average 12 gauge, but to have semi-auto I think would be an advantage. Also, having loaded magazines you can quickly reload in hostile situation would be very important. Loading a gun is difficult under stress for even the experienced, much more a rookie! I was thinking about forking out the extra money for this shotgun/rifle and forgetting about a 12 gauge altogether. Any thoughts?
Rifleman 173
Member
Look, if you practice a lot with a pistol you will feel confident, and probably rightly so, to use a pistol for home defense. The same thing applies if you practice with a carbine, rifle or shotgun. You will have a natural tendency to use what you feel comfortable with in a challenging or strange "social" situation. The key to what you will use is what do you feel comfortable using and will you practice with your selected item A LOT? If you practice with a rifle then use it when bad times come knocking that may work. If you practice with a handgun then so be it. Both work well as does the shotgun but another issue is did you practice with the right tool for the particular or specific encounter that you're involved? For general home defense at close range I would want a shotgun backed up by a big bore pistol backed up by a knife. For home defense and possible longer distance shooting confrontations, I would want a rifle backed up by a pistol backed up by a knife. If I were rushed and/or trying to maneuver in dark rooms and down hallways, I would use a big bore pistol backed up by a knife. So you are the one who determines what your shooting needs are, what kind of area you will be operating in and at what distance you will be shooting.
MTMilitiaman
Member
It was my first time doing live fire room clearing drills, which explains the adrenaline for me. Any time you have live rounds going off in close proximity to you, and you are shooting in close proximity to others, with little room for error, the situation calls for a little shot of adrenaline, IMO.
The rooms were all about 15x15 feet. Concrete. Open windows and doorways in most of them. The rounds in the hallways were loudest because the it was more enclosed. No hearing protection. It was loud, to be sure, even painful, but not enough to have a noticeable or quantifiable affect on my reaction or coordination.
Only time that has ever happened was an incident involving a drunk uncle and a Mini-14 with a compensator that had its bolt seized shut. We were all standing around him trying to observe what was wrong with the rifle when he just said 'to hell with it,' flicked off the safety, and fired with my head about 18 inches directly above the compensator. This was in the confines of a small trailer. That felt like a spike was being shot into the side of my head. Instant headache. And all I heard out of that ear for several days was the ringing. Plus the bullet went through the floor of the trailer less than an inch from my big toe. That was before I drank, but I learned my lesson and no longer associate with or tolerate drunk gun-handling.
So while I don't doubt it is possible to get rifles to produce sound levels that are disorienting, I think it is pretty difficult. Unless your head is right next to a compensator or muzzle brake and the room is the size of an outhouse, you should be fine. At least I should. Hearing is shot anyways. Chainsaws, rifles, and angry white-boy music will do that to ya...
The rooms were all about 15x15 feet. Concrete. Open windows and doorways in most of them. The rounds in the hallways were loudest because the it was more enclosed. No hearing protection. It was loud, to be sure, even painful, but not enough to have a noticeable or quantifiable affect on my reaction or coordination.
Only time that has ever happened was an incident involving a drunk uncle and a Mini-14 with a compensator that had its bolt seized shut. We were all standing around him trying to observe what was wrong with the rifle when he just said 'to hell with it,' flicked off the safety, and fired with my head about 18 inches directly above the compensator. This was in the confines of a small trailer. That felt like a spike was being shot into the side of my head. Instant headache. And all I heard out of that ear for several days was the ringing. Plus the bullet went through the floor of the trailer less than an inch from my big toe. That was before I drank, but I learned my lesson and no longer associate with or tolerate drunk gun-handling.
So while I don't doubt it is possible to get rifles to produce sound levels that are disorienting, I think it is pretty difficult. Unless your head is right next to a compensator or muzzle brake and the room is the size of an outhouse, you should be fine. At least I should. Hearing is shot anyways. Chainsaws, rifles, and angry white-boy music will do that to ya...
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Not 3 times louder; your ears don't work that way. You'd barely be able to perceive a 3 dB difference at that volume, if at all. And remember those are peak dB levels; the rifle will have more area under the curve (total delivered energy), but that's not loudness; dB is how high the peak is. dB does not measure energy, but power (energy/time).
There is a strong correlation with barrel length, and the barrel length of the 9mm is not specified. That's probably a 3.5" or 4" barrel, compared to the 18" .223. I'm guessing that the static pressure at the muzzle of an 18" barreled .223 at the moment the bullet exits is probably only 2000-3000psi, coming out of a .224" bore. The pressure behind a 9mm bullet exiting a 3.5" or 4" barrel is probably at least that high or higher, out of a .355" bore (yes, the 9mm starts out at 35,000 psi instead of 55,000 psi in the chamber, but look at the expansion ratios). And higher-pressure gas coming out of a larger bore can indeed create a higher pressure peak, even if it is peakier than the rifle's.
Cut the .223 barrel down to 14.5" and put a brake on it, and you'll blow the 9mm dB's away and probably give the .357 a run for its money. But the figures are reasonable as they stand, working from first principles, and they are consistent with most of the direct-measurement dB values I've seen.
There's your difference, I suspect. Reinforced concrete is like a mirror for sound, unlike drywall (never mind shooting outdoors), and you probably had VERY long reverberation times in there, adding to the sensory overload (not to mention the three shots in 3/10 second, each shot coming while the sound from the previous shot is still bouncing around). Fire a 3-shot burst from a 4" barreled 9mm subgun inside the same concrete box, and the results would probably have been similar.
Thankfully, most home-defense shootings do not occur within enclosed reinforced-concrete structures, and don't involve burst-capable weapons.
King Ghidora said:
Would you feel confident taking a shot at an intruder to free a family member with buck shot?
I wouldn't.
The spread might not hit your loved one. Then again, it just might.
Switch to a slug? Ok, that might work but it takes time. While you're switching to a different type of ammo the bad guy might just decide to shoot you or your family member.
I'll stick to rifled barrels that will put every shot into a group the size of a snuff can at 50 yards.
mljdeckard
Member
A handgun is what you use to fight your way back to the long gun you never should have put down in the first place. When you have time to actually run and grab a gun, it should be a long gun. My primary is a Remington 870 loaded with #4 buck, my backup is an M-1 carbine.
A lot of people are using ARs for HD these days, which is fine, AS LONG AS YOU USE DEDICATED AMMO, like Hornady TAP. I would not load one up with surplus green-tip ammo for home defense, that stuff will shred multiple layers.
As for using an AK, or even a shortened battle-rifle variant, I would always tell you to use what you have, but those are really weapons designed for longer-range combat, with a lot more smash power. I would consider myself fully capable of using a heavy weapon in a house, but I certainly wouldn't prefer it. The whole reason the military backed off heavy cartridges for personal weapons is that medium-powered cartridges are more controllable and useful at realistic combat ranges than heavy rounds. Using a battle-rifle in a home is kind of like killing a fly with a sledgehammer. All rounds have a chance of going through the bad guy, walls, houses, sleeping children, and anything else in their way. A .308 is darn near guaranteed to do so.
I'm not a fan of relying on the sound of my pump to do anything at all to a bad guy, it shouldn't change your plans at all. The reason I keep my shotgun chamber empty is that I have kids in the house, not because I want to scare someone with the sound of the pump. It may scare them away, they may be too stoned to realize what it is, they may be so wired it makes them want to charge you. Ideally, the first sound the BG hears from my gun should be the last sound he hears from anything.
A lot of people are using ARs for HD these days, which is fine, AS LONG AS YOU USE DEDICATED AMMO, like Hornady TAP. I would not load one up with surplus green-tip ammo for home defense, that stuff will shred multiple layers.
As for using an AK, or even a shortened battle-rifle variant, I would always tell you to use what you have, but those are really weapons designed for longer-range combat, with a lot more smash power. I would consider myself fully capable of using a heavy weapon in a house, but I certainly wouldn't prefer it. The whole reason the military backed off heavy cartridges for personal weapons is that medium-powered cartridges are more controllable and useful at realistic combat ranges than heavy rounds. Using a battle-rifle in a home is kind of like killing a fly with a sledgehammer. All rounds have a chance of going through the bad guy, walls, houses, sleeping children, and anything else in their way. A .308 is darn near guaranteed to do so.
I'm not a fan of relying on the sound of my pump to do anything at all to a bad guy, it shouldn't change your plans at all. The reason I keep my shotgun chamber empty is that I have kids in the house, not because I want to scare someone with the sound of the pump. It may scare them away, they may be too stoned to realize what it is, they may be so wired it makes them want to charge you. Ideally, the first sound the BG hears from my gun should be the last sound he hears from anything.
mgkdrgn
Member
If there is to "be only one", it's shotgun, hands down.
Cheaper, deadlier, bigger boom!
Nothing beats the basic pump scatter gun for versatility and true one shot knockdown power.
Cheaper, deadlier, bigger boom!
Nothing beats the basic pump scatter gun for versatility and true one shot knockdown power.
Brer Bear
Member
I may have missed it, but have we considered frangible ammunition if overpenetration is a concern?
I just bought a Saiga 12 gauge Semi-Auto .. Still trying to contact the seller, who has not been available. Anyway, I think I got the deal squared away and found my home defense gun. Now I am looking for the 10 round mags.
I am thinking of getting Saiga .308 as an additional SHTF/Home Defense Gun. I already have some ARs, which I can load with some hunting grade ammo, as well. I hear that they do make hollow points for AK47s . Wouldn't that also make it a good home defense gun that would not penetrate through neighboring walls?
I am thinking of getting Saiga .308 as an additional SHTF/Home Defense Gun. I already have some ARs, which I can load with some hunting grade ammo, as well. I hear that they do make hollow points for AK47s . Wouldn't that also make it a good home defense gun that would not penetrate through neighboring walls?
Doc_Jude
Member
nathan said:
Great Answer! Of course, I go with my M590 & G30SF, but hey, who's counting?
NO .308 gimme a break. Running around your house with a Remmy 700 or M14... laughable, man.
MCgunner
Member
I prefer a .416 Ribgy with solids. That way, I can shoot the bad guy and hit any others within five city blocks in my apartment complex...
mgkdrgn
Member
mljdeckard
Member
I would NEVER trust my life to frangible ammo. It's way too unpredictable, and has too little mass.
The_Bullzeye_Guy
Member
why don't you get a 9mm sub compact, or a .40 cal if you want a pistol, or get a 20 guage or 4-10 if you want a sotgun..I mean, sur they're not as powerful as the 12 guage, but I am sure a theif would not be okay after being shot by a 20 guage or 4-10..even a couple of well placed shots from a 9mm will do the trick..
Personally, I sleep with my Sig Sauer 556 at my bedside. I tricked it out with a green laser, red dot scope, and bi-pod..not to mention it has a 6 position retractable stock...and with a 35 round mag ( it shoots .223 and 5.56 ammo), it will certainly do the trick...
Whatever you decide, good luck with it!
Sincerely,
Adam Z
Personally, I sleep with my Sig Sauer 556 at my bedside. I tricked it out with a green laser, red dot scope, and bi-pod..not to mention it has a 6 position retractable stock...and with a 35 round mag ( it shoots .223 and 5.56 ammo), it will certainly do the trick...
Whatever you decide, good luck with it!
Sincerely,
Adam Z
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