Shotgun vs. Rifle for CQB

[labnoti]

I really don't want this to be a discussion about overpenetration. This always comes up whenever discussing rifles for home defense. I've seen the tests of #4, 00, slugs, 5.56, and .308 on multiple walls. I get it. Instead, I want to focus on effectiveness on the adversary target at 25 yards or less and on practical considerations of each weapon. I know 5.56 carbines have been compared to 12 gauge shotguns extensively for law enforcement purposes. The carbines have clearly won preference but for a variety of reasons other than terminal effectiveness. I would rather see comparisons to larger caliber rifles, and to keep it relevant to more people, semi-auto only.

To be a little more specific, consider something like a Benelli M4 or Remington V3 Tactial vs. an AR-15 in 6.5 Grendel, .300 Hmr, or 458 Socom, or an AR-10 in .308 or a short M1A like a tanker or socom model.

 

[chicharrones]

To be a little more specific, consider something like a Benelli M4 or Remington V3 Tactial vs. an AR-15 in 6.5 Grendel, .300 Hmr, or 458 Socom, or an AR-10 in .308 or a short M1A like a tanker or socom model.

That leaves out my preference for pistol caliber carbines in this role. Of course, CQB for me is merely home defense.

 

[George P]

Same for me, and I do not have anywhere in my home that is 25 yards distant so a shotgun works well; a basic pump is a lot cheaper to buy, while loud, it is not as damaging as a rifle indoors to one's hearing, and they are very simple to operate for folks who aren't gun nuts like most of us here are.

 

[SunnySlopes]

Given the OP's criteria, (remember, semi auto only), the Benelli M4 with buckshot.

Personally, I prefer a shorter barrel so that the muzzle doesn't have to precede me by much as I turn a corner.

 

[AlexanderA]

If you're thinking about home defense as a "Close Quarter Battle," you're thinking about it wrong. A "battle" implies that both sides start out with equal chances. With that mindset, you have already lost. The last thing you want to do is have a gunfight in your own home.

 

[herrwalther]

Having trained with both an M4 Carbine and short (NFA short) Mossberg 12ga, I would prefer a carbine. While the shotgun was shorter in overall length and easier to handle, the short length made managing recoil and ammo more difficult than a carbine. An AR pistol with a suppressor or a PCC with a suppressor would be the ideal choice for close quarter/home defense situations.

The calibers you mention (458 SOCOM, 300 Hamr) pose several issues when used in close quarters. The rounds carry much more energy than something like 5.56 or a pistol caliber out of a long barrel. This extra energy translates to they are more likely to exit the structure and cause damage somewhere else like a nearby person or another structure. If you were urban fighting and entire blocks are considered hostile, this would not be a concern. If you have neighbors you even remotely get along with, it will be a concern.

 

[jmr40]

Larger caliber rifles like 308, 6.5 Grendel etc. are more effective than 223 at ranges over 200 yards. At 25 yards there is no advantage to using them. The other rounds, 300 BO, 300 Hmr, 350 Legend etc. and the other straight walled cartridges are intended to meet the legal requirements of states that limit rifle cartridges for hunting. They are actually a step down in performance, but will still work for what you intend.

If you hit the target any of the above rifle or shotgun rounds will be quite effective at 25 yards. A pump action shotgun has the price advantage, but if comparing semi-auto's you can get an AR cheaper than any semi-auto shotgun I'd trust.

INSIDE most homes, certainly mine, ranges are going to be measured in a few FEET, not yards. A shotgun's primary advantage is a wide pattern of buckshot making it easier to hit the target. At inside ranges you lose that advantage. I consider a shotgun to be preferable OUTSIDE at ranges of 10-40 yards where you get the advantage of the pattern.

I still prefer a handgun indoors to be able to have one hand free and reduce the chances of an intruder being able to get their hands on the barrel.

If I'm using a long gun indoors I like an AR pattern rifle over a shotgun. The shotgun no longer has any advantage at ranges that close. And compared to a shotgun an AR in 223 carries 6X more ammo, with 1/6 the recoil of a shotgun with slugs or buckshot. And does it with a lighter, more compact weapon.

 

[GEM]

If this goes into the usual stopping power debate, many folks will miss the overall picture. In a home defense situation, I think you would be hard put to find a failure with a 223 that would have been solved by the latest 333 Blackdump round.

Thus, what can you shoot well, accurately, move with, handle the recoil, manipulate, etc? Then have you trained with the gun? Have you given it an empirical test as close to realistic as we have - such as in a higher end long arm class and/or set of competitions with the candidates.

Just saying that gun X or Y dumps more energy, kills more jelly and you shot it on the square range - isnt' really worth much.

 

[Jeff White]

My answer to this question will never change....It simply boils down to the one that you are best with and are willing to invest the time to train with.

 

[boom boom]

GEM and Jeff are correct.
One of the mis-perceptions of a shotgun as a weapon is that it is "easy" to use. Just like any other firearm, it requires practice and feeding jams in a shotgun are not easily correctable during a firefight. One also need to know the pattern if firing buckshot at distances, the tendency for slugs to overpenetrate walls, etc., and maintenance if you are firing a gas operated shotgun. Pump actions can be short stroked, gas operated can have issues with particular ammunition such as light recoil loads, and inertial semi-autos may need loads tailored to their specific spring requirements. Shotguns are often not drop safe. Shot recovery after recoil is longer and slow reloads are also things to bear in mind. Proper training is needed to mitigate the shortcomings and accentuate the benefits of a shotgun. They are not point and shoot outside of single shots.

Remember, one of the reasons that they were so popular for self defense for a long while was that many people were familiar with them from using them for hunting. Familiarity then would be a aid in using one for self defense. However, a city apartment dweller, with limited ability to practice using one, might have other needs.

Rifles have their own set of issues.

Remember, the mission is to stop the assault without harm to oneself or loved ones. Then, you chose the firearm most appropriate to stopping most likely type of assaults you might face and practice with it for your mission.

 

[bearcreek]

A "battle" implies that both sides start out with equal chances.

Wow. If that's true, there've been way fewer "battles" in history than I had thought. By that definition I don't think one has ever occurred on the north American continent. Somebody always has some sort of advantage.

Instead, I want to focus on effectiveness on the adversary target at 25 yards or less and on practical considerations of each weapon.

If you're focusing solely on single round effectiveness at close range, the 12 gauge slug wins, hands down, IMO. There's a reason they're popular for folks in grizzly country. Doesn't make the least bit of sense for that to be the only criteria though so I'm not sure how useful that really is.

 

[Hangingrock]

We keep a Mossberg M590 12 GA secured. With modifications, aftermarket safety button more pronounced aggressive finger contact surface, replaced the OEM magazine tube follower with a machined follower, replace the front barrel bead with a night sight bead and mounted a (6) shell capacity saddle to the side of the receiver. Three rounds of 00 and three rounds of number 1 Buck. We keep it unloaded and locked away securely. I've had had experience with a shotgun in the Marine Corps-Viet-Nam a Winchester 97 better than a 1911A1 in my opinion at close quarters. That my story!

 

[earplug]

I replaced my shotgun with a carbine due to my shooting club having a monthly tactical match which is fun to shoot and my US Army experience. Training and experience beats tools.

 

[GE-Mini-Gun]

I really don't want this to be a discussion about overpenetration......

Lasted 6 post...

 

[lemaymiami]

Got to quibble a bit about 25 meters being CQB distance.. For me, and here I'm only talking self defense purposes in a structure... That "close quarters" means 15 meters or less (sometimes a lot less...). At 15 meters or less a properly used 12 gauge with ordinary 2 3/4, 00 buck, is a one shot fight ender with a center of mass hit...

The writing was on the wall by the early nineties as most police departments made the transition away from shotguns and towards carbines or "patrol rifles"... That change was not based on the shotgun not being the right tool at CQB distances but much more on "diversity" issues in hiring and training... Put simply many new officers had difficulty training up to properly use a shotgun... and that was that.

Because of my training and experience I'll always prefer a shotgun for close quarters work (even if these days I'm in the minority...). Now if my years on the street had been in the countryside or out west where a rifle is always your best bet I'd have a different response...

 

[psyopspec]

That leaves out my preference for pistol caliber carbines in this role. Of course, CQB for me is merely home defense.

Or rifle-caliber pistols, like an AR variant.

 

[chicharrones]

Or rifle-caliber pistols, like an AR variant.

I don't usually notice the word change like that. Lol.

 

[MCFLYFYTER]

On paper the shotgun wins. The real question is can you win with a shotgun?

 

[bearcreek]

Lasted 6 post...

To be fair, the premise doesn't really make much sense. It'd be like having a thread about holster selection based solely on the type of rivets used to fasten them together.

 

[George P]

If you're thinking about home defense as a "Close Quarter Battle," you're thinking about it wrong. A "battle" implies that both sides start out with equal chances. With that mindset, you have already lost. The last thing you want to do is have a gunfight in your own home.

Reminds me of the old saying:
"If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck"

 

[shoobe01]

Reinforcing a bunch of what was said above, with some disconnected points:

• CQB is indeed well considered to be 25 m and in, with forays past that. Because it's in built up areas. Not /in/ buildings.
• While unofficial, "FISHing" (Fighting In Someone's House) was the most common single term I have seen for inside building work. It is much shorter range, usually. Aside from the cute name, House was on purpose to indicate SMALL areas, short ranges. Fighting inside warehouses and factories is not that different from CQB. But office buildings and apartments and hospitals are full of small House-sized spaces.
  
• The carbine (now at least) will almost always win due to ease of use. It's low recoil, easy to reload, has high capacity (a ban-capacity carbine of 10 rounds still beats any shotgun!) so reduces reloads, and is much harder to incorrectly manipulate and induce a stoppage by accident.

Also agree fully that ignoring over-penetration is seriously ignoring a huge aspect of this. Early Iraq insurgency ended up with lots of house clearing. Units that had learned that in training only led with grenades. Real world grenades blow through walls, injured soldiers and Marines; so, they changed it up and used flashbangs, or no grenades if not available, when the structure didn't support it. Effects always matter, from keeping everyone else safe to keeping you out of court.

Be aware of your target, and what is beyond it. Hard in a structure, so we do what we can to avoid shooting invisible people beyond the wall, or past the structure entirely.

 

[John Joseph]

I really don't want this to be a discussion about overpenetration. This always comes up whenever discussing rifles for home defense. I've seen the tests of #4, 00, slugs, 5.56, and .308 on multiple walls. I get it. Instead, I want to focus on effectiveness on the adversary target at 25 yards or less and on practical considerations of each weapon. I know 5.56 carbines have been compared to 12 gauge shotguns extensively for law enforcement purposes. The carbines have clearly won preference but for a variety of reasons other than terminal effectiveness. I would rather see comparisons to larger caliber rifles, and to keep it relevant to more people, semi-auto only.

To be a little more specific, consider something like a Benelli M4 or Remington V3 Tactial vs. an AR-15 in 6.5 Grendel, .300 Hmr, or 458 Socom, or an AR-10 in .308 or a short M1A like a tanker or socom model.

I'd want whatever the rest of the guys in my unit are carrying,

 

[luzyfuerza]

I recently took a long gun tactics class. Lots of shooting from odd positions, around barricades, while moving, and in scenarios (starting inside vehicles, running to cover, etc.). We shot each drill with a shotgun and a rifle.

My shotgun was a pumper, and my rifle was a fairly heavy 16" AR in 5.56. Even though the gear I used isn't what was laid out in the OP, perhaps the lessons I learned from that experience might be useful.

My conclusions:

within pretty broad limits of terminal effectiveness

shorter, lighter, bigger ammo capacity, less recoil and noise, and easier operation

beats

longer, heavier, smaller ammo capacity, more recoil and noise, more complex manual of arms

EVERY time.

My ideal tool for these tasks is an AR sbr in 5.56 (or a lightweight PCC sbr), without a can for training, and with a can when used for real. Plus lots of training and practice with that platform.

Buckshot, slugs, and rifle rounds like .308 might be at the top end of what is considered to be acceptable terminal effectiveness, but I don't judge that benefit to be anywhere close to the importance of short, light, high capacity, less recoil and noise, and easier manual of arms.

 

[George P]

I guess I just don't agree with the less noise aspect from a SBR 223 versus a 12 gauge; the rifle has ear-drum piercing noise levels and concussion while the shotgun does not. YMMV

 

[luzyfuerza]

I guess I just don't agree with the less noise aspect from a SBR 223 versus a 12 gauge; the rifle has ear-drum piercing noise levels and concussion while the shotgun does not. YMMV

Except for the Salvo12, shotgun cans aren't common, and exacerbate the long/heavy nature of most shotguns.

But that does bring up a good point. I ignored short-barrel shotguns. Anybody here have experience with an sbs, with and without a can?