sixgunner455
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fal, I guess that really depends on where you hunt. Did you see the Alaska deer hunting picture?
Please explain the "Scout Rifle"
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rbernie
Contributing Member
Leupold and Burris make IER scopes, and I have used both. The Burris is heavier and bulkier but has an adjustable ocular. Either one will do.
Leupold's Custom Shop will take their 20mm 1.5x-5x/20 and make it into an IER unit, and that's probably gonna be what I ask Santa to bring me this year.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Only one 20-miler, but bunches and bunches of dozen-milers. Wish Remington had come out with the 700 Ti forty years ago. 
dagger dog
Member
A rather dated concept, from a highley opinionated dead man!
billymarr
Member
bing thank you
TwoWheelFiend
Member
I am a big reader of Jeff Coopers works I always wanted a scout rifle. This summer I picked up one of the new Ruger Gunsite rifles. So far i am very pleased with it. I put a Leupold scout scope on it. The LER scope was easy for me to get used to and it is very fast on target. It shoots very well, punching 1.5" groups @ 100yds. So far so good with the rifle. The only gripe i have with it is the magazine. Smooth action, decent trigger (plan on a timney in the near future) and it is very handy in the woods.
Now that ive put a few hundred rounds though it its my go to rifle. I have a few other "normal" bolt actions with scopes and i just want to shoot the scout.
Now that ive put a few hundred rounds though it its my go to rifle. I have a few other "normal" bolt actions with scopes and i just want to shoot the scout.
KodiakBeer
member
Take what you like from the concept and leave the rest.
I left the Scout Scope behind because in the terrain here I found myself constantly clunking the optic on low branches I was ducking under when the rifle was slung from my shoulder. The rear mounted scope is more protected, so I use a 1x5 mounted in the traditional style.
I left the Scout Scope behind because in the terrain here I found myself constantly clunking the optic on low branches I was ducking under when the rifle was slung from my shoulder. The rear mounted scope is more protected, so I use a 1x5 mounted in the traditional style.
I've watched the growth of the Scout Rifle and recall when Jeff Cooper first starting writing about them. He was in love with the idea of a short, easy to carry rifle, in a dangerous enough caliber to kill something big that had an easily removeable scope.
We all see articles on Scout Rifles. I think they are guns that people talk about and then don't buy. Good concept however, for someone who is a serious hunter and if that hunter is going to walk a long ways, then I think a Scout Rifle would work.
I don't have much to say about that 376 Steyr round. Seems like a killer to me; on both ends, but we all know what when hunting the recoil doesn't register with the hunter. So it's no big deal, but I have no idea where one buys the ammunition.
We all see articles on Scout Rifles. I think they are guns that people talk about and then don't buy. Good concept however, for someone who is a serious hunter and if that hunter is going to walk a long ways, then I think a Scout Rifle would work.
I don't have much to say about that 376 Steyr round. Seems like a killer to me; on both ends, but we all know what when hunting the recoil doesn't register with the hunter. So it's no big deal, but I have no idea where one buys the ammunition.
SharpsDressedMan
member
I'd be willing to bet that most people who have actually packed, shot, and USED a Scout rifle (be it as close to the "concept" as possible) probably think more highly of it than those who have pondered the idea from their armchairs. I'd guess for every actual user who has discarded the concept, 4-5 have adopted or favor it. That is possibly 80% or more. I'm not saying they got rid of all their other rifles, only that they understand, and agree with the concept and resulting rifles. If you don't, don't use it, or whatever, but don't condemn what you have not tried. That is just being closed minded. Cooper spent a lot of time in development, with hands on, before he arrived at a conclusion. To what extent have the naysayers gone to T&E?
I have an older m1a 18" bush rifle, which had the threads stripped out of the receiver. So a traditional mount over the receiver was not an option. So i bought an ultimak rail & a aimpoint comp c3 for it. That worked ok, but i wanted something more, so i bought the leupold scout scope & never looked back. This optic is very fast, light & perfect for my needs. I just wish i would have bought one sooner.
d2wing
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It's a good idea and works for what it designed for, a specific competition. For me the scope in that position would be a distraction. Also the muzzle blast recoil, and bolt action would prevent quick follow up shots. I like the idea of a shot light rifle that points fast. Make it in a semi auto with a normal low power scope and you have something more useful. I can see why some guys like the bolt action and .308 though.
I'm curious as to what kind of "specific competition" the general-purpose Scout rifle was designed for?
I have one I built about 12 years ago, and the forward scope has advantages that you need to try in order to understand.
As far as "balance" is concerned, when you have to carry the rifle, as opposed to using the sling (like in thick brush, multiflora rose and the like) you can wrap your hand around the action at the balance point. Can't do that well when there's a scope in the way.
And what good is that semi-auto in states like Pennsylvania where a hunting rifle is required to be manually operated?
I'll never eat giraffe meat. I saw some once, and it didn't look too tasty. No sir, I don't care if those other guys thought it was good, they're wrong, I know it's just gross.
Precisely my point.
14427H
Member
I agree that you have to use one to "get" it.
I have a Cooper Scout and a Tactical Scout. I mounted a conventional scope on the Tactical and used them both in the Texas Hill Country 99% of the time I'm shooting well under 200 yards, most less than 100. The Cooper is my go to gun and I know that several deer are no longer with us because of how fast you can get on target. Like I said, using basically identical rifles, for still hunting a scout is not going to be an advantage. As a 'walkabout" the Cooper is a joy. The Tactical is now also fielding a scout scope.
I have a Cooper Scout and a Tactical Scout. I mounted a conventional scope on the Tactical and used them both in the Texas Hill Country 99% of the time I'm shooting well under 200 yards, most less than 100. The Cooper is my go to gun and I know that several deer are no longer with us because of how fast you can get on target. Like I said, using basically identical rifles, for still hunting a scout is not going to be an advantage. As a 'walkabout" the Cooper is a joy. The Tactical is now also fielding a scout scope.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
Interesting thread. I have a Scout rifle based on a Remington M600 that was built by Jim Brockman.
I think of it as a "Super Carbine". Anything I can do with my 336, I can do better for 4 rounds with my Scout. For six rounds the 336 leads and over that, I want my FAL.
I think of it as a "Super Carbine". Anything I can do with my 336, I can do better for 4 rounds with my Scout. For six rounds the 336 leads and over that, I want my FAL.
Kendal Black
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I agree, but there are, as well, difficulties with that type of sight. For one thing, the field of view is cluttered with the ranging and hold-off cues. The field of view in a scout scope is already somewhat restricted; adding stuff would detract from the fast target acquisition that is the scout scope's chief virtue.
Cooper, in this book, merely talked about eyeballing the range and holding over. I've never liked the vagueness of that approach, but it is simple. The hold-off reticle is a good idea but it isn't without problems of its own. How shall we correlate the reticle to the trajectory when we change to a bullet weight substantially lighter or heavier than the norm? That problem has a solution, but how will you keep your range measuring cues the same size? That too has a solution, but by now the whole question is turning into a problem that just gets more complex the longer you look at it.
If you want simple, how about an elevation knob?
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Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
d2wing, the point about competition is merely to show that the forward mount allows faster target acquisition than the conventional mount. My own opinion is that while it's faster, it's not enough faster for me to change my own style. Some people work at shooting with both eyes open; I never have--and for me it's never been a factor.
35 Whelen
Member
I think one of the problems is the "Scout" definition has become so watered down and everyone focuses on the forward scope. Someone mounts a scope out on the barrel of their Marlin 336, and they say they "built" a Scout rifle and didn't like it. Others say they did the same with an SKS, a Mosin, etc. etc.
Like someone said, you really have to try it to understand it. The above statement is an educated guess.
I'm not sure what "muzzle blast recoil" is, but if you're talking about muzzle blast, this is mostly a factor of the type powder used. I use an extruded powder in my 308 loads so muzzle blast is nil. Conversely, I use a ball powder in my 22" 257 A.I. and the muzzle blast/flash is something to see at dusk.
Agreed.
35W
Like someone said, you really have to try it to understand it. The above statement is an educated guess.
I'm not sure what "muzzle blast recoil" is, but if you're talking about muzzle blast, this is mostly a factor of the type powder used. I use an extruded powder in my 308 loads so muzzle blast is nil. Conversely, I use a ball powder in my 22" 257 A.I. and the muzzle blast/flash is something to see at dusk.
Agreed.
35W
I just bought the Weaver Scout Scope 4x28 from www.opticsplanet.com . It was $189 with free shipping. This is the scope use in the American Riflemen show. The reviews all seemed good. I'll let you know how it works.
billymarr
Member
scout/skout/
Noun:
A soldier or other person sent out ahead of a main force so as to gather information about the enemy's position, strength, or movements.
Verb:
Make a search for someone or something in various places.
Synonyms:
noun. spy
verb. reconnoitre - reconnoiter - explore
When I (emphasis on I) speak about a Scout Rifle I use the above definition. Why as a former Scout in the U.S. Army 10+ years and outside the service. Curently working in Afghanistan. This is the difiniton of a Scout's rifle come from to me. So yes I have used them .
We in the Recon comunity have and conitnue to modernize our definition of our Scout/ Recon rifle. Due to our mission varince we can go from Scout to Security the rifle needed will vary. To bad we cant have 3 basic configurations of each needed for the mission or terrain so we settle.
So lets look at my parameters and you will notice some crossover some do not. Then you may see why I say Coopers definition is out dated. In relation to mine and others.
One 8 punds is nice for portablity. But remember ammo weight. Scout basic load 210 rounds.
So caliber choice plays alot the rifle may weigh less but the ammo is a deal killer. 210 rounds of 5.56 is less than 210 rounds of 7.62.
Ok so 5.56 ammo
Bolt action could work as we are not supposed to become decisively engaged
so we do not have to reach out and touch you. But we need to defen our selves if need be. So 500 max effective and good rate of fire I go with semi auto.
Open site back up with a scope well the ACOG works great as does an aim point remeber does not have to be a variable.
So now I am looking at about half a dozen if not more good semi auto rifles.
My choice is and AR with a 18 inch barrel. Why 20 Scouts rarely do urban assualt but will do an area recon and provide security for the assualt force 18 inch barrel gives us more range. It is still easy to move arround with since we allways carry in the ready position. Yea the M4 is cute and works in the right hands but not every one can use it effectivly at ranges past 300.
Now for a hunting situation I will take the above in 6.8SPC just becuase it stays on the same lower.
The point to all of this is there is no one Scout Rifle model that fits the bill. If I am hunting bear in Alaska I sure as hell not taking a 5.56 I will take something better suited.
I hope this helps in explaining why some of us do not like Coopers definition.
Noun:
A soldier or other person sent out ahead of a main force so as to gather information about the enemy's position, strength, or movements.
Verb:
Make a search for someone or something in various places.
Synonyms:
noun. spy
verb. reconnoitre - reconnoiter - explore
When I (emphasis on I) speak about a Scout Rifle I use the above definition. Why as a former Scout in the U.S. Army 10+ years and outside the service. Curently working in Afghanistan. This is the difiniton of a Scout's rifle come from to me. So yes I have used them .
We in the Recon comunity have and conitnue to modernize our definition of our Scout/ Recon rifle. Due to our mission varince we can go from Scout to Security the rifle needed will vary. To bad we cant have 3 basic configurations of each needed for the mission or terrain so we settle.
So lets look at my parameters and you will notice some crossover some do not. Then you may see why I say Coopers definition is out dated. In relation to mine and others.
One 8 punds is nice for portablity. But remember ammo weight. Scout basic load 210 rounds.
So caliber choice plays alot the rifle may weigh less but the ammo is a deal killer. 210 rounds of 5.56 is less than 210 rounds of 7.62.
Ok so 5.56 ammo
Bolt action could work as we are not supposed to become decisively engaged
so we do not have to reach out and touch you. But we need to defen our selves if need be. So 500 max effective and good rate of fire I go with semi auto.
Open site back up with a scope well the ACOG works great as does an aim point remeber does not have to be a variable.
So now I am looking at about half a dozen if not more good semi auto rifles.
My choice is and AR with a 18 inch barrel. Why 20 Scouts rarely do urban assualt but will do an area recon and provide security for the assualt force 18 inch barrel gives us more range. It is still easy to move arround with since we allways carry in the ready position. Yea the M4 is cute and works in the right hands but not every one can use it effectivly at ranges past 300.
Now for a hunting situation I will take the above in 6.8SPC just becuase it stays on the same lower.
The point to all of this is there is no one Scout Rifle model that fits the bill. If I am hunting bear in Alaska I sure as hell not taking a 5.56 I will take something better suited.
I hope this helps in explaining why some of us do not like Coopers definition.
Kendal Black
Member
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- Mar 18, 2011
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- 1,647
As I read the scout rifle definition, the forward scope is a strong recommendation, not a requirement. The greater emphasis is on what is done (fast target acquisition and good hits) not on how it is done. The scout definition embraces iron sights and even low powered optics mounted aft.
A forward scope does not a scout make; if you mount a low powered optic forward on a long and heavy rifle that swings like a two by four, you don't get all of the the speed advantage. In fact you don't get much of it. The parts of the scout rifle concept fit together.
The bolt action does not seem, in my understanding of the matter at least, to be essential to the scout concept. Rather, it is (or was) essential to the concept's practical execution. If you say you are going to use a full powered cartridge, and then say the rifle has to be light, and rugged too, all the autoloader actions available thirty years ago are excluded. The M14 was rugged. The FAL was rugged. They were, of course, quite heavy. There were some lighter actions in sporting rifles but they were not rugged. To get something light and field tough, in an autoloader, you had to drop down in caliber to the AR or the Mini, or similar, guns the Guru referred to as "poodle shooters." Is the situation all that different today? Where can we find a lightweight .308 self-loader able to shrug off abuse?
Of course the value of Cooper's concept is debatable; that is as it should be--and we appear to be debating it. When you look at the whole concept though, you find yourself looking past the pieces and parts involved, to look at the reasons why. That is where it gets interesting.
If you look at the practical problem that it solves, Cooper's scout rifle makes a good deal of sense: you need a big rifle's performance, but the size and heft and handiness of a carbine. Doubtless the same problem has other solutions, but this is a pretty good one.
A forward scope does not a scout make; if you mount a low powered optic forward on a long and heavy rifle that swings like a two by four, you don't get all of the the speed advantage. In fact you don't get much of it. The parts of the scout rifle concept fit together.
The bolt action does not seem, in my understanding of the matter at least, to be essential to the scout concept. Rather, it is (or was) essential to the concept's practical execution. If you say you are going to use a full powered cartridge, and then say the rifle has to be light, and rugged too, all the autoloader actions available thirty years ago are excluded. The M14 was rugged. The FAL was rugged. They were, of course, quite heavy. There were some lighter actions in sporting rifles but they were not rugged. To get something light and field tough, in an autoloader, you had to drop down in caliber to the AR or the Mini, or similar, guns the Guru referred to as "poodle shooters." Is the situation all that different today? Where can we find a lightweight .308 self-loader able to shrug off abuse?
Of course the value of Cooper's concept is debatable; that is as it should be--and we appear to be debating it. When you look at the whole concept though, you find yourself looking past the pieces and parts involved, to look at the reasons why. That is where it gets interesting.
If you look at the practical problem that it solves, Cooper's scout rifle makes a good deal of sense: you need a big rifle's performance, but the size and heft and handiness of a carbine. Doubtless the same problem has other solutions, but this is a pretty good one.
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