Please explain the "Scout Rifle"

[KodiakBeer]

The entire ideas is/was silly. If you have to fight with people, a bolt action is not what you want. If you are hunting, there is no need of a super-fast first shot.

It's a general purpose rifle, not a specific battle rifle and not a specific hunting rifle. It's just a series of compromises to do a number of things adequately and all within a weight and length requirement for easy packing.

As for a bolt action rifle not being appropriate for a fight, well, that is because few people know how to shoot a bolt action rifle any more. In a medium caliber like .308 a person who actually knows how to shoot a bolt rifle can work the action without breaking their sight picture before the rifle comes back down out of recoil. It's probably a tad slower than something like a heavier FAL or M1a, but not by much.

 

[R.W.Dale]

The entire ideas is/was silly. If you have to fight with people, a bolt action is not what you want. If you are hunting, there is no need of a super-fast first shot. .

Wha-gun-up-safety off-dot on target BOOM

I had less time than it took you to read this to shoot this weekends deer. Not everyone sits in a chair and waits for the deer to come to them. The ability to get a fast first shot off is absolutely critical in a stalking gun for me.




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[KodiakBeer]

As for the guy who "thinks" that the bolt action is "not much slower", it's in fact 4x as slow, taking 1.2 seconds for a repeat hit on 10" disk at 25 yds, as vs .30 second with a good autoloader 308. Now, maybe you think it's ok to just give your enemies 4 extra shots at you, beyond what is necessary, but I don't.

I own both bolt action and semi .308's. If somebody is taking 4X as long to shoot a bolt rifle, it's because they don't know how to shoot a bolt rifle. I'd guess 90% of people today don't know how to efficiently run a bolt action.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Like I said, while you can imagine that you won't need more than one shot in a fight, that does not bend reality to your will. The fact is that for the great majority of the year, big game season is not open. So why would you be carrying a big game rifle, hmm? And an inefficient one at that, with such a short barrel.

As for the guy who "thinks" that the bolt action is "not much slower", it's in fact 4x as slow, taking 1.2 seconds for a repeat hit on 10" disk at 25 yds, as vs .30 second with a good autoloader 308. Now, maybe you think it's ok to just give your enemies 4 extra shots at you, beyond what is necessary, but I don't.

I didn't comment on a fast follow shot in a defense situation . I was discrediting your assertion you don't need a fast first shot hunting. In my state you could hunt yotes and therefore hogs under the same equipment guidelines w a ruger scout for close to 6months in 12

But since you want to go there by in large defense at ranges requiring a rifle is generally prosecuted as murder in this country. So you can absolve yourself of that fantasy right now.

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[HorseSoldier]

As for a bolt action rifle not being appropriate for a fight, well, that is because few people know how to shoot a bolt action rifle any more. In a medium caliber like .308 a person who actually knows how to shoot a bolt rifle can work the action without breaking their sight picture before the rifle comes back down out of recoil. It's probably a tad slower than something like a heavier FAL or M1a, but not by much.

They were never that great to begin with, though obviously better than the previous technology and inferior to the succeeding technology. Take a platoon of the proverbial Sgt Snoxhall with SMLEs and put them up against, say, a modern British platoon with L85s and SUSAT or ACOG optics and Snoxhall et al will get their clocks cleaned all day long. There's a reason why each improvement in infantry small arms in the last 130 years or so -- beginning with the single shot breech loader versus muzzle loader and progressing through the bolt gun, autoloader, assault rifle, etc. -- has rapidly exterminated its predecessors on the battlefield.

 

[Kendal Black]

...few people know how to shoot a bolt action rifle any more.

Ain't it the truth! You will often see this:

Fire cartridge.
Lower rifle.
Look downrange to inspect the target for a hole.
Look down at rifle.
Grab bolt.
Pull on bolt.
Look at where the ejected cartridge fell.
Look at the top cartridge in the magazine.
Push bolt forward.
Raise rifle.
Take aim.
Fire cartridge.
Repeat the above steps.

It was not done that way when front line rifles were bolt rifles; of that you may be sure. The soldier has an obvious interest in doing the thing in a more streamlined manner. Here is everything I have come up with on how to be quick with a bolt action. http://shootery.blogspot.com/2010/06/fast-bolt-work-how-to-fire-bolt-action.html

There is a link to the tommy finger method used by the Brits when they needed extra-fast fire: Keep your grasp on the bolt knob while pressing the trigger with your middle, ring or little finger. That's faster than most people need, and isn't the greatest for accuracy--most often it's a stunt, rather like "fanning" a cowboy revolver.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I own both bolt action and semi .308's. If somebody is taking 4X as long to shoot a bolt rifle, it's because they don't know how to shoot a bolt rifle. I'd guess 90% of people today don't know how to efficiently run a bolt action.

Here's how folks think a bolt gun should be operated.

Shoulder gun

Try to find the minuscule shaft of light through your 45x bsa scope

Squeeze trigger

Realize the safety is on

Unshoulder rifle

Stare at rifle like you've never seen it before

Turn off safety

Repeat steps one through four

boom

Unshoulder rifle

Stare slack jawed at whatever you were shooting at for at least six seconds

Determine if another shot is called for.

Text your wife and tell her to pick up a pizza on her way home (Canadian Bacon)

Stare at rifle again

Open bolt

Close bolt

Yeah I need another shot

Shoulder rifle

Remember you can see better with that bsa turned down to 24x

Unshoulder rifle

Turn magnification ring

Reshoulder rifle

HEY I CAN SEE!....kinda

BOOM

Hey &*+$ I wasn't ready! Damn 1# kitchen table trigger job!

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[Kendal Black]

They were never that great to begin with, though obviously better than the previous technology and inferior to the succeeding technology. Take a platoon of the proverbial Sgt Snoxhall with SMLEs and put them up against, say, a modern British platoon with L85s and SUSAT or ACOG optics and Snoxhall et al will get their clocks cleaned all day long. There's a reason why each improvement in infantry small arms in the last 130 years or so -- beginning with the single shot breech loader versus muzzle loader and progressing through the bolt gun, autoloader, assault rifle, etc. -- has rapidly exterminated its predecessors on the battlefield.

"Roight then. Lads, bring up the Vickers guns, and the Lewises, and that Stokes contraption."

Seriously, though, you are right of course. My reading of Cooper is, the reason the scout rifle is not a self loader is that at the time, there were no field-tough autoloader actions that would "make weight."

There is no objection to a self-loading scout per se; the problem is technical not philosophical. A sufficiently sturdy and precise action was not to be had without going to the heavy military 7.62 types. It might be interesting to revisit that question today.

 

[35 Whelen]

Like I said, while you can imagine that you won't need more than one shot in a fight, that does not bend reality to your will. The fact is that for the great majority of the year, big game season is not open. So why would you be carrying a big game rifle, hmm? And an inefficient one at that, with such a short barrel.

As for the guy who "thinks" that the bolt action is "not much slower", it's in fact 4x as slow, taking 1.2 seconds for a repeat hit on 10" disk at 25 yds, as vs .30 second with a good autoloader 308. Now, maybe you think it's ok to just give your enemies 4 extra shots at you, beyond what is necessary, but I don't.

Really, I don't think anyone's arguing that a bolt rifle is anywhere near as fast as an automatic.

No sense arguing with this guy (who I'm betting is a regular with a second account) as he obviously does not understand the concept of one man with an accurate bolt rifle that knows how to use it...much as Mr. Eatman quite eloquently alluded to a few posts back.
Judging from his posts I'd say he's the type who envisions himself with his M4, 100 round drum magazine in place, killing hoardes of bad guys by spraying the countryside generic 55 gr. ammunition. You know the type...they can be found on most any public range honing their rifles skills on the 25 yd. handgun range, shooting at empty cartridge boxes strategically placed on the dirt backstop. Some of the serious ones challenge themselves by making the move to the 50 yd. range.

35W

 

[R.W.Dale]

Yeah, I can tell that you've never used an electronic shooting timer. TRY getting repeat hits faster than 1.20 seconds, using a 308 or similar caliber bolt action. On a 10" circle at 25 yds. You just don't know what really fast hitting is like, that's all.

A 10" circle at 25 yds with A RIFLE LOL (facepalm)

Setting the bar pretty low there ain't ya.

Why not back up to a range where you actually have to aim then note how the time disparity lessens

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[35 Whelen]

TRY getting repeat hits faster than 1.20 seconds, using a 308 or similar caliber bolt action. On a 10" circle at 25 yds. You just don't know what really fast hitting is like, that's all.

What'd I tell ya..... LOL

35W

 

[R.W.Dale]

I wonder how many moa 10" at 25 is

That's not marksmanship or even shooting, it doesn't even rise to the level of good plinking.

25yds on 10" is just seeing how fast you can fan a trigger

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[henschman]

It's called a scout rifle, not a door kicker rifle. A scout would avoid the close quarters, run and gun scenario like the plague. And tell me what semi auto rifle which is capable of taking all North American game weighs less than 6.5 lbs. including a scope?

 

[Kendal Black]

Possibly apropos thishere: Shooting for speed at short range: Lee Enfield versus Springfield and M1 Garand, featuring R. Lee Ermey. (Youtube video.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsDLjfA1Ylw&feature=player_embedded#!

Long range levels thing a bit because you must spend more time on sighting and triggering, so the cycling speed of the weapon does not play quite so much of a role.

 

[35 Whelen]

TRY getting repeat hits faster than 1.20 seconds, using a 308 or similar caliber bolt action. On a 10" circle at 25 yds.

Try getting a SINGLE hit with ONE shot on a 10" circle at 300 or so yards (that essentially is what a rifleman should be capable of)with your little spray and pray rifle.

(...has anyone seen a lock laying around here?)

35W

 

[R.W.Dale]

A scout would TRY, but since you are in fantasyland anyway, I leave you to your dreaming. 25 yds is not 25 ft, and millions of rds miss men at less ranges, every year, guys, fired by our troops. See, you IMAGINE that you won't be effected by blasts when you have no ear protection. You IMAGINE it will be in good light. YOu IMAGINE that the target will be erect, fully exposed, and stationary. You IMAGINE that you won't be exhausted, have dysentary, be hurt in some way, etc. That's not the reality of combat. Rifles are for war, pistols are for nowaday's self defense. Let's try to be a bit real, ok?

No I don't IMAGINE I'm in the military operating in a combat zone. Where did you serve?

Rifles are for sport and hunting as civilians. Lets keep it real here. Use a rifle or any firearm for "defense" past even such close a range as 25yds and chances are you'll be facing charges

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[R.W.Dale]

Try getting a SINGLE hit with ONE shot on a 10" circle at 300 or so yards (that essentially is what a rifleman should be capable of)with your little spray and pray rifle.

(...has anyone seen a lock laying around here?)

35W

Agreed! The distance you can perform this in whatever position you can employ is also the maximum distance you should take shots in deer sized game.

For shirts that's appearently 75 feet

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[Kendal Black]

For perspective, the idea behind the scout is not that behind the sturmgewehr. We may debate the value of the scout rifle idea, but let's not lose track of what that idea is.

If pressed to come up with a modern military role for a scout rifle, I would say slap some sort of bullet drop compensating optic on it and hand it to the Designated Marksman.

 

[shiftyer1]

With all this talk of scouts spending most of their fighting, i'm starting to thing my definition of a scout is totally wrong!

I love the idea of scout rifles...i've always liked carbines anyway. My only problem is the forward mounted scope. I haven't tried one but it just seems odd to me. Off balance.

 

[Kendal Black]

All this talk about a ten inch target at 25 yards has me thinking I have just the gun for that: shotgun. Put the targets close enough together and I'll get two at once.

 

[henschman]

If pressed to come up with a modern military role for a scout rifle, I would say slap some sort of bullet drop compensating optic on it and hand it to the Designated Marksman.

Now what I would really like to see is a scout scope with a ranging/bullet drop compensating reticle along the lines of the ACOG reticle. I think it would really fit the concept of the Scout rifle well... getting quick first-shot hits on targets in the field at unknown distance. And plus it would let me take this heavy ACOG + cheek riser setup off my M1A and run a scope that can sit low enough that it doesn't need a cheek riser, and would let me have my stripper clip guide back!

 

[NOLAEMT]

As I think has been said, when Col. Cooper wrote about the scout concept, he was not refering to a scout as a military position, but rather as a one rifle to take with you in your travels in the wilderness.

 

[Fringe]

I think the idea of a Scout is to get a fast shot off so a person can get away, If you hit a guy real fast off then the others will tend to be more cautious about following you, That way you can get the heck out of there....Its to be a light rifle, Of a decent caliber fast to aim to get a quick shot off..
It also make for a nice utility rifle, No its not for everyone..But I tend to like any decent gun..22 single shot up to a large full auto, They all was made for a purpose..

 

[HorseSoldier]

I wonder how many moa 10" at 25 is

That's not marksmanship or even shooting, it doesn't even rise to the level of good plinking.

25yds on 10" is just seeing how fast you can fan a trigger

It's around 40 MOA.

Seated comfortably at the bench or in a solid prone position it's a laughable standard.

Those who laugh at it, though, have probably never had to attain it at speed while moving, in full kit, against a target that shoots back. Bit of an apples and oranges thing when worst case accuracy scenario is a bit of embarassment or maybe no fresh backstraps for dinner versus scenarios where someone is going to die or be maimed before the encounter is over and it's an open question who that's going to be.

 

[rodregier]

Someone (Leupold?) used to make a forward mount for the Winchester 94. I own an example of the mount that I purchased used from it's prior owner. I wonder if the mount predated Jeff Cooper writing about the Scout Rifle concept?