Police at wrong address kill man who had gun

[SharpsDressedMan]

I said it earlier, but it is still true. The dead home owner operated with more restraint with a gun in his hand than the police. After all, he didn't shoot the officers as the door was opened. I guess he SHOULD have been in fear for his life as much as they were. After all, he lived there, and logically, had a right to be there, AND defend himself there.

 

[coolluke01]

Just because the cops shot first doesn't mean they used less restraint then the homeowner. He may have pointed the gun at them first! Again that is a big IF.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

He restrained himself from shooting them. They did not return the favor. That much we know. The rest is conjecture.

 

[Sam1911]

I said it earlier, but it is still true. The dead home owner operated with more restraint with a gun in his hand than the police. After all, he didn't shoot the officers as the door was opened. I guess he SHOULD have been in fear for his life as much as they were. After all, he lived there, and logically, had a right to be there, AND defend himself there.

I don't think we can say with any certainty that he used proper restraint. Pointing a gun at someone is not "using restraint."

He did not SHOOT, but the contention here is that he may have pointed his weapon at the deputies. That is a forcible felony only marginally less serious than actually pulling the trigger. It is an assault. IF he really did that, then the actions the officers took in shooting him would be lawful self defense, not just for law officers operating under their departmental rules, but for anyone, under FL law.

He has the right to defend himself, but there is no right to "defend" one's self against someone who's just knocking on your door. That includes pointing your gun at them. Setting aside the question of whether under FL law it is ever lawful to resist a police officer with force, you can't assault ANYONE by pointing your gun at them if they have not directly presented a threat to harm/kill you. If you do they have every right to defend themselves with lethal force to try and save their lives.

So, IF he opened that door with a gun pointed at them, those officers were RIGHT to shoot him.



But, regardless of whether he committed that initial assault by pointing his gun at them...that's not to say that a serious misfeasance was not committed by those officers and/or their department.

I'm still seeing this as a situation where the mistakes (however unintended) of the department and/or those deputies led to a situation that ended in a homicide, and I believe that to be criminally negligent. Their little goofs in procedure lead to a predictable situation in which they'd be confronting an armed citizen. Further, if they shot simply because they saw a gun, and they assumed this was a dangerous criminal who would use it -- that's manslaughter.

 

[ATBackPackin]

I have thought about this very hard for the last two days before coming to a conclusion.................

And in my opinion the Sheriffs are responsible.

Here is why. They had the wrong address. Now a lot of you are saying that simply having the wrong address doesn't give the homeowner the right to open the door with the gun pointed at the officers. For the most part I agree, but then we have to take into consideration the time of night as well. Now they had the wrong address, but they thought they had the correct one AND the correct one in which they were trying to arrest a dangerous criminal. This is key. We'll come back to this.

Next, they did NOT announce themselves when knocking. Now remember this is 1 AM and the police do not gently rap at the door. It was unwise to open the door without knowing exactly who is outside but there was no peephole in the door. Now at that point I would have and he should have called the police. Now this is speculation, but I think it is reasonable to believe that it is possible that the police did not announce who they were because they were trying to arrest a dangerous criminal AT THE WRONG ADDRESS. If the police come to your house in the middle of the afternoon and do not announce, no big deal, but at 1 AM I think it is absurdly unprofessional, negligent, and as we already know extremely dangerous. Along that same line, the homeowner very well may have asked who was there and they did not respond trying not to tip their hand and lose the element of surprise.

Next, let's think about this logically. The officers must have had their guns drawn and at the ready. How else could they have drawn and shoot before this guy could do anything. He could have stepped back and shut the door before they shot. He could have dropped the gun. He could have thrown his hands up. He could have fired a shot. Now why did the officers have their guns drawn? Because they were trying to arrest a dangerous criminal AT THE WRONG ADDRESS. These officers were ready for a confrontation and they thought they were getting one. That is why this guy is dead. They thought it was a dangerous criminal with a gun pointed at them, but who's fault was that??? I'm not saying the homeowner was without fault, but ultimately this was the officers irresponsibility. They were pounding on the door at the wrong address at 1 AM and did not and possibly would not announce themselves with the mindset of arresting a dangerous criminal. All the homeowner did was try to defend his castle.

Innocent people (and dogs) have to stop being killed because the police can't get the right address. There is nothing anyone could could say to convince me that if it were important enough to them that they could not get the right address. I have pointed a gun at an officer accidentally before and am still here to tell about. I guess I should be thankful it was like ten years ago and not today because according to the officer in the video, "If you point a gun at an officer, you ARE going to die."

Shawn

 

[Hardtarget]

This same thing happened to a man in Lebanon, Tn. This was about six/seven years ago. Police were at the wrong address looking for a man with a criminal record. The home owner was shot in his livingroom. They kicked in the door, he had his shotgun, he died.I don't see how they can get the wrong address anymore. The GPS system works too good and there are street signs all over town. Just make VERY sure...its life or death.

Mark

 

[Zaydok Allen]

To answer the original question.

If it is during the day, and someone knocks unexpectedly, I will be armed with a revolver in hand (silent), and will look through a window or a single slat of the blind covering the window on my door to see who it is. If someone has the nerve to come to my home in daylight, and they mean me harm, I don't want them to know I'm armed necessarily. I will not however point a gun at someone until they make a threatening guesture or motion.

If it is in the middle of the night or too late or early, I will be in bed, and will reach for my FNP-45. At that point I will chamber a round which can be heard loud and clear through my front door. It is an older house that I rent and sound travels through it very readily. If the person means me harm, and is scared by the sound, hopefully they leave. If they don't mean me harm and get scared off, well I have lots of neighbors they can request help from. Either way the result is the same for me.

If they don't take off, I will stand at my bedroom door and ask them to identify themselves loudly. At that point the gun will be pointed at the closed door and they will need to yell loudly enough for me to hear them. If they say cops, I look out a window and let them in if they look legit. No reason for them to ever be at my house though as I am law abiding, so I'd be real careful and expect mischief. If they look scetchy, the door stays closed and the police get a call from me.

If someone came through my front door and they didn't get on the ground when I told them, there would be a lot of lead headed their way. If It was the cops, the same would happen, as that would simply be my instinct and reaction. Then you'd read about me on the internet in a sad story. Different tactics in different scenarios.

 

[justice06rr]

I don't think we can say with any certainty that he used proper restraint. Pointing a gun at someone is not "using restraint."

He did not SHOOT, but the contention here is that he may have pointed his weapon at the deputies. That is a forcible felony only marginally less serious than actually pulling the trigger. It is an assault. IF he really did that, then the actions the officers took in shooting him would be lawful self defense, not just for law officers operating under their departmental rules, but for anyone, under FL law.

He has the right to defend himself, but there is no right to "defend" one's self against someone who's just knocking on your door. That includes pointing your gun at them. Setting aside the question of whether under FL law it is ever lawful to resist a police officer with force, you can't assault ANYONE by pointing your gun at them if they have not directly presented a threat to harm/kill you. If you do they have every right to defend themselves with lethal force to try and save their lives.

So, IF he opened that door with a gun pointed at them, those officers were RIGHT to shoot him.

Sorry but this is simply not accurate.

The officers had NO right to shoot the wrong man, at the wrong address, who is just trying to defend himself.

Lets look at the situation (and put yourself in the victim's shoes): The police are looking for a dangerous criminal. It is very highly to have guns drawn when you are pursuing a felon and known criminal (and if I'm not mistaken SOP. Correct me if I'm wrong but I know this is how they do with felony stops), which the victim was not.

It is 1AM, and a group of unknown men are loudly banging at your door without identification. It is highly possible that the victim was in fear of his life -- too bad we will never know since he was shot first.

Now we already know that the police went to the wrong address, and to make it worse did not annouce their identity. With these mistakes already, its very possible they also made a mistake of shooting an innocent civilian without properly identifying their target. Lets not even go to disparity of force, as there is one guy vs multiple armed LEO's.

At this point we are only speculating. The media will bend the facts, and the LE Agency can skew the truth to cover their asses. I'm not bashing LEO's here as I am friends with many, but at this point its hard to say who's really at fault without all the facts, and unfortunately the side of the dead victim.

 

[Sam1911]

Well, justice, it is probably a little off to say both "this is not accurate" and "we're only speculating" in the same statement.

You'll note that I said "IF" in bold, italicized, capitals several times. IF he opened the door with a gun leveled at the cops (or ANYONE) they have a right to defend themselves with deadly force. That's not really arguable. IF he pointed a gun at another human without some justification that meets the standards for self defense in Florida, that act is a forcible felony and itself is justification for the other party to shoot him. (And neither "it's the cops" nor "someone's knocking at my door" are lawful justifications for using force.)

I'm not sure why you think anything I said is "not accurate." I don't even see where you've disagreed with me, except perhaps in that you speculate that whatever he did was lawful because he was defending himself, and I've postulated that he MIGHT have done something which caused the officers to have a legitimate need to defend themselves.

 

[Robert]

IF

Lots of those in this case. Let's put the lock on all the speculation for now. When more information become available pm me and I'll take a look at reopening it. But for now there are just way too many IFs in this case.