Police Beating in New Orleans Caught on Tape #2 Constructive Criticism ONLY

[spartacus2002]

In the cops favor, the guy IS struggling on the ground.

And if I was getting an unwarranted asswhupping, including rabbit-punches while I'm shoved up against the wall, I'm probably going to struggle against it too. Having a badge doesn't mean that an arrestee has to take an asswhupping.

 

[Gunpacker]

I don't know much

I can't say from the video whether the guy was "resisting" or "resisting with violence." The video seems to start showing several guys with the arrestee against the wall. We don't know, IMO, what transpired prior to that. Now, I agree that if you only look at it from what appears to be the guy only slightly struggling with several guys pretty much in control, the force may have been excessive. The words of the law will have to decide that IMO. If prior violence had occurred, then all questions are moot. Cops are not required to fight on an "even" basis, otherwise they would go home every day looking like Joe Frazier on the morning after "thrilla in Manilla". However, strikes to the head would not be my choice, since that can confuse the subject and make the situation more combative. Hard to reason with a half conscious person. I don't think many of you guys would want to risk your own safety to make sure that you didn't hurt a person that was resisting arrest with violence. Especially on a daily basis.
That said, there is no excuse for excessive violence in arrest. Stress??? Cops don't take into account the stress that most of us are under, and often far more than the work stress of a police officer's job. Police overstate the stress of the job IMO. Danger?? Try working unarmed at a shop and rob. Or delivering pizzas.
As for the guy attacking the cameraman, if you simply touch the police officer with your finger, you can be charged with "battery on a LEO". Felony. Turn about is fair play IMO. Personally, I am fed up with the excuses made for the NOPD. These guys are cops, signed on for the job, supposedly trained for emergency duty. Try talking to guys in Iraq about stress. They usually seem to hold it together in far more trying circumstances for years. It is the attitude and mindset of cops that gets them in trouble usually. Kick the bad ones out, get new ones, and train them to respect the public as much as they expect the public to respect them.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

MRex: "I signed up thinking I was going to find mature, well adjusted
folks who could talk about firearms."

Well, they are here, but not on the Legal and Political forum.

Actually, reading the Whole Thread, I found more constructive
responses than I expected. Sure, there have been some
Blue-Wall-Of-Solidarity and All-Cops-Are-Stormtroopers rants,
but many have been worth thinking about.

Byron Quick:

Quote:
"Everything was my fault, officer. I'm to blame. Take me to jail"?


I've done this a time or two. Officer's mouth fell open. Flabbergasted to the
point that I didn't even get a warning ticket. And it was a traffic offense
that was supposed to be an automatic trip to jail. Reckon they really don't
hear it much.

It does work. (Of course I left out the go-to-jail part).*
I try to treat cops like I would treat a family member** and try to
keep in mind that the officer who pulls me over for a burned out
signal light may have had to secure an accident scene while they
hosed the blood off the road and is not in the mood for snotty
backtalk. I have known two people who I felt should not have had
a badge,*** but most cops are doing a hard job and
deserve the same benefit of a doubt as anyone else, no more
but no less.
__________
*Don't believe in pushing my luck THAT far!
**Uncle and five friends in LE.
***NOT the Uncle and five friends in LE.

 

[ziadel]

update:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051011...Sd_8QGs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

 

[M-Rex]

Stress??? Cops don't take into account the stress that most of us are under, and often far more than the work stress of a police officer's job. Police overstate the stress of the job IMO. Danger?? Try working unarmed at a shop and rob. Or delivering pizzas.
As for the guy attacking the cameraman, if you simply touch the police officer with your finger, you can be charged with "battery on a LEO". Felony. Turn about is fair play IMO.

Well, at least you started out alright, I guess.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Take all of the stress you've ever felt from bills, a nagging spouse, a malfunctioning vehicle, walking a dark street at night, etc.......THEN.......couple it with inept administrators, marginal politicians, a spiteful unappreciative public, thousands of laws, ordinances, and general orders that govern your daily activities, and people who actively want to kill you simply because you wear a uniform, and maybe, just maybe, you will get close to what it is like to be an LEO.

And...if you simply 'touch' anyone, it could be a battery, not just on an officer.

Turn about is fair play? What, are you in kindergarten? High Road.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

More

A little more detail than the AP story repeated at Fox:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/10/11/taped.beatings/index.html

 

[Gunsnrovers]

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Take all of the stress you've ever felt from bills, a nagging spouse, a malfunctioning vehicle, walking a dark street at night, etc.......THEN.......couple it with inept administrators, marginal politicians, a spiteful unappreciative public, thousands of laws, ordinances, and general orders that govern your daily activities, and people who actively want to kill you simply because you wear a uniform, and maybe, just maybe, you will get close to what it is like to be an LEO.

give it a rest. There are also plenty of other jobs with very higher risk of death and/or injury that don't pay as well, are also run ineptly, don't have unions protecting their right to work, and remain unappreciated by the public.

Cry me a river if that's going to be the card you want to play.

 

[The Tourist]

We don't need opinions, we need the truth.

Look, everyday 99% of LEO's (many of them my friends and clients) go to work with a positive commitment. They do jobs we do not want.

My wife is a teacher, my SIL is a Red Cross nurse. Along with them, and in conversations with my clients, I believe that there is a certain type of individual who must serve; if they do not, they feel like they are wasting their time.

They want to make a difference, they are not bystanders. Lots of them get hurt.

When the Pentagon got hit on 9/11, the area had more injured than the WTC and they needed blood. My SIL was the one of the first to volunteer, and they snatched her up in a Lear jet to get her to the accident site. The gravity of the condition didn't really settle upon her until she looked out a window and saw that she was being escorted by an F-16.

Scared to death, she worked 15 hour days.

These people do not need to be tarred by the same brush. They should not have to hear that "all LEO's" react in this fashion.

Let's investigate it, find the truth, and publish the answers. If the officers are innocent, then tell the world. If they are rogues, then please separate them from the people who serve.

 

[svtruth]

Nopd

All I have heard/seen about NOPD has been since Katrina. Given the looting and desertion by NOPD officers and a long history of corruption, what reliance can we place on the assertion that the officers involved in this incident will be dealt with promptly?

 

[bountyhunter]

Here's some constructive criticism:

If you want a good police force, don't hire a bunch of low life thugs and turn them loose with badges.

 

[M-Rex]

give it a rest. There are also plenty of other jobs with very higher risk of death and/or injury that don't pay as well, are also run ineptly, don't have unions protecting their right to work, and remain unappreciated by the public.

Cry me a river if that's going to be the card you want to play.

Name one.

 

[wingman]

From an old person's perspective I see an break down in society as a group
in terms of common sense, from police to average clerk at WalMart, poor
manners, poor self control, and no I don't have an answer to the problem,
other then turn out the lights and start over, perhaps we could do better
second time around.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Name one.

The 10 most dangerous jobs
Occupation / Fatalities per 100,000
Timber cutters / 117.8
Fishers / 71.1
Pilots and navigators / 69.8
Structural metal workers / 58.2
Drivers-sales workers / 37.9
Roofers / 37
Electrical power installers / 32.5
Farm occupations / 28
Construction laborers / 27.7
Truck drivers / 25

Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics; survey of occupations with minimum 30 fatalities and 45,000 workers in 2002
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P63405.asp

Not that their jobs aren't dangerous, but LEO's don't even make the top 10.

 

[50 Freak]

How come my job isn't on there????

Professional Male Stud

 

[Biker]

Not many of us left, eh?
Biker

 

[Cosmoline]

OK, I can see that cops sometimes have to get rough with drunks. I've seen it first hand. But what sets my alarm bells off are these aspects of the incident:

--The horseback cop rides in front of the camera to prevent them from filming it

--One cop assaults a producer, again telling me they knew darn well they were going too far.

--The use of FIST PUNCHES TO THE BACK OF THE HEAD instead of proper restraining methods. You don't punch someone to restrain them, you punch someone to fight with them and that's exactly what this looked like to me--a mutual combat.

--The complete absence of any medical assistance once the man was down and bleeding heavily. The cops just walked off, AGAIN revealing that this was a FIGHT not an arrest.

 

[M-Rex]

You are absolutely correct. But what I was referring to, and countering was this:

Stress??? Cops don't take into account the stress that most of us are under, and often far more than the work stress of a police officer's job. Police overstate the stress of the job IMO. Danger?? Try working unarmed at a shop and rob. Or delivering pizzas.
As for the guy attacking the cameraman, if you simply touch the police officer with your finger, you can be charged with "battery on a LEO". Felony. Turn about is fair play IMO.

Well, at least you started out alright, I guess.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Take all of the stress you've ever felt from bills, a nagging spouse, a malfunctioning vehicle, walking a dark street at night, etc.......THEN.......couple it with inept administrators, marginal politicians, a spiteful unappreciative public, thousands of laws, ordinances, and general orders that govern your daily activities, and people who actively want to kill you simply because you wear a uniform, and maybe, just maybe, you will get close to what it is like to be an LEO.

There certainly are job fields that report more statistics in regards to raw deaths. The poster was trying to minimalize any 'stresses' an LEO might experience by throwing up a bunch of smoke. I countered him.

Besides...when was the last time you ever heard someone trying to off themselves via 'suicide by roofer'?

 

[Gunsnrovers]

As of June, there were approximately 870,000 law enforcement personel in the US. There were 153 deaths on duty last year. That comes to just under 18 deaths per 100,000. On average, there are 16,621 injuries per year. This comes from the NLEOMF web page.

As was said, you don't even make the top 10 list.

Nothing discounts the work of LEO's and how hard it is, but if you're going to try selling bad behavior because the job is tough, I ain't buying.

Lots of folks living under stress every day. Some you may never even be aware of.

 

[Biker]

I've seen a few try 'suicide by Biker'. Heh heh...
Biker

 

[spartacus2002]

M-Rex,
we are well aware of the occupational hazards of being a police officer. None of those hazards justify police officers seeing themselves as a separate class of citizen to whom a LOWERED set of expectations apply. If anything, police should be held to as high a standard as their fellow citizens.

Not to put it too delicately, but look at your sigline; merely by mentioning yourself as a "Sheepdog" you risk setting yourself apart from your fellow citizens. Contrary to the "Sheepdogs'" belief, your fellow non-police-officer citizens are NOT "Sheep."

 

[Cosmoline]

from. No one likes to see the light bar behind his/her vehicle. Hell, I don't even like to see it. But, if a police officer or deputy sheriff stops a car on the freeway, why was the officer lighting the car up? The driver was probably speeding. Who sets the speeding limit? A committee made up of people from the community. Who gets the 'constitutionalist diatribe' at the side of the road? The solitary law enforcement officer.

By my count I've been pulled over about 25 times in my life. The ONLY TIME it was for speeding was ON MY BIKE in Eugene, Oregon--a ticket a took as a genuine trophy Every other time, the stops were pretense stops. Somewhere along the line, these cops are getting trained to pull cars over for tail lights, no turn signal light, or whatever. The point has nothing to do with lights, but rather it's an opportunity for them to shine the light in your eyes and look for those "coffee cans" in your car.

I'm tired of it, and over the years my respect and tolerance of LEO's using these tactics has gone down further and further as I see more and more of them behaving like soldiers on patrol. That doesn't mean they're all bad, by no means. But there is an "us vs. them" mentality with many law enforcement agencies. NOLA's cops are among the worst. In one report from CNN, it turns out two different squads have claimed title "Fort Apache" They're fighting with each other over the right to claim to be the most under-siege unit.

but back to the topic--
Anchorage and a number of other cities have created a special "drunk squad" of non-cops to come deal with intoxicated folks who aren't hurting anyone but who are a danger to themselves. These guys know how to deal with drunks better than cops and do a good job picking them up. APD will come in to help as needed. I've seen APD officers deal with violent drunks by sitting them down and just talking to them for awhile with the community service people there to help. That's good work. Beating a drunk on the head is at best pointless. If they're really flipping out, they're going to do a pretty good job hurting themselves without any assistance. Best to give them some room and just use a stun gun if needed. Jumping in for a mass bar fight is just a horrible tactical idea, all politics aside.

 

[M-Rex]

I'm tired of it, and over the years my respect and tolerance of LEO's has gone down further and further as I see more and more of them behaving like soldiers on patrol. That doesn't mean they're all bad, by no means. But there is an "us vs. them" mentality with many law enforcement agencies.

I have been pulled over 4 times in my life. What were you doing to get you pulled over 25?

Do you think the 'us vs. them' attitude is reciprocal? Take a look at the users of this board. Do you think there's a pervasive 'us vs. them' attitude being displayed? Hell, take a look at this thread.

Not to put it too delicately, but look at your sigline; merely by mentioning yourself as a "Sheepdog" you risk setting yourself apart from your fellow citizens.

Absolutely correct. Walker vs. talker, if you prefer. And, as I stated in another post, law enforcement officers (read that in general) are held to a higher standard than that of, say, a roofer. However, unfortunately, this still doesn't prevent the occasional screw up by someone wearing a badge. As you well know, people are people. The interesting thing is, you never hear people get really bent out of shape when a roofer gets in a fight.

 

[Gunsnrovers]

The interesting thing is, you never hear people get really bent out of shape when a roofer gets in a fight.

That's probably because you don't often hear a roofer support the reason he beat the tar out of someone or shot them as being "part of his job".

 

[M-Rex]

Um...ok.

Funny. I've never heard an officer say that either. But I have seen many a roofer who's breakfast consisted of the last half of last night's beer, and a little methamphetamine sprinkled on his cornflakes.

Fine upstanding lads, indeed. But I digress...

 

[Biker]

Yes, you do digress. I've done roofing work, and never used meth nor did the guys I worked with. Didn't drink before or during work and neither did the guys I worked with. I'm sure that a few do and did, but then again, people from other professions are guilty of the same, including cops, doctors and lawyers, fine upstanding lads, all of them.
Biker