Police denied entry to party so they ticketed party-goers

[K-Romulus]

as a MoCo resident

I have been following this story with some interest. Michael Graham of WMAL had a whole show on this incident because he knew one of the families.

My experience with individual officers here has been positive, but the leadership totally blows. Between Chief Manger's anti-gun-owner tirades, to the County Council's PC-crap, like tying the hands of the police concerning "undocumented workers," it must be tough for the individual officer to keep their sanity. It's tough for me, and I'm not on the force!

MoCo police need to be putting their efforts into finding the home invasion suspects that are plaguing the county, instead of ticketing minivans . . .

http://www.gazette.net/200520/montgomerycty/updates/276309-1.html

http://www.gazette.net/200521/montgomerycty/policereports/276824-1.html

http://www.gazette.net/200518/montgomerycty/policereports/273885-1.html

 

[captain obvious]

Does implied consent apply when you are OUTSIDE AND AWAY from a vehicle? Why couldn't the partygoers just see the cops and wait until they left - so long as they were not doing anything with regards to driving, logic [strange choice of words for dealing w/cops sometimes] would dictate that could flatly refuse both ID demands* and breathlyzer tests, right?

*damn SCOTUS


EDIT:

Situations like this are exactly why my drivers license lives in my car

 

[mfree]

You do not have a right to a driver's license, hence implied consent applies. Social contract, etc. etc.

You do however have the right to walk down a public street without having you're 4'th amendment rights violated by a cop demanding you give him a breathalyzer reading. There's a line.

 

[jefnvk]

And jefnvk, you really do make me sick. I have been watching posts by you for about a week and have not seen one thread involving a police abuse of power were you didn't bend over backward to give the benefit of the doubt to cops who were clearly abusing their authority, or to people who were on the side of trampling the rights of citizens. What is wrong with you? Why do you have such a thing against individual rights? Why are you such a statist? Do you really think that the government and the police know what is best for all of us, and act in our best interests at all times??

Why don't you really tell me how much you love me then

From what I understand, everything the cops did was legal.

So police stationed patrol cars at each end of her street, six in all, and began giving the tests to guests as they left the party, she said.

Tells me in all likelyness that they were testing the people driving away. When I signed for my licese, I agreed that if I refuse a breathalyzer while driving, I give up my license for 6 months.

Parking tickets? Yeah, probably mad now. But if they were legitiment parking tickets, all I can say learn to park properly, so it doesn't happen.

As for probable cause, its 9:30 on a friday night at a graduation party, and the cops have been called on a noise complaint. There is probably some suspicion of alcohol.

As for that post, it is posts like that are driving me away from L&P. I've been giving thought completely forgoing it. I can't understand why people post these stories, and get pissed off when someone disagrees with their point of view. Do you really just want people to tell you that your opinion is right, that you are wise and smart? Obviously if I don't see the impending police state, if I don't agree to every conspiracy that some people cook up, if I disagree on some points, I am the enemy in disguise. Obviously there is something wrong with me, and obviously people like you have to show me the way.

EDIT: I direct you back to post #40:

Moderator Note

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Awright, you kids. No more personal comments about the other posters, please.

For those who need a refresher, you can find the forum rules here.

pax

 

[buzz_knox]

As for that post, it is posts like that are driving me away from L&P. I've been giving thought completely forgoing it. I can't understand why people post these stories, and get pissed off when someone disagrees with their point of view. Do you really just want people to tell you that your opinion is right, that you are wise and smart? Obviously if I don't see the impending police state, if I don't agree to every conspiracy that some people cook up, if I disagree on some points, I am the enemy in disguise. Obviously there is something wrong with me, and obviously people like you have to show me the way.

The problem is that instead of stating a different opinion, you assert things that are rather concerning. You've asserted that the police shouldn't have taken her word for it, especially where they couldn't see that there was no alcohol. Apparently, the concept that absent probable cause (i.e. illegal use of alcohol in plain sight), the HAVE to take her word for it. Anything else is illegal. So the issue people are having is that your arguments fly in the face of the Constitution. But hey, maybe there's something wrong with us.

 

[stevelyn]

I'm about speechless. We would never be allowed to get away with taking actions like that regardless of the original complaint or the homeowners level of cooperation. The chief would have our heads on a stick and the city gov would be showing up with torches and pitchforks.
The state dosen't even allow us the authority to conduct business this way.

 

[TinCup]

This incident goes to further the "us verses them" attitude in todays cops. In the eyes of todays cops they are not public servants, but rather see themselves as "government enforcers" and the citizenry be damned. Hence the growing trend of police departments changing over to military BDU type uniforms, cops wearing masks, and the use of tactics such as roadblocks for "stop and fish" operations.

When I was kid and this was a free country, the cops commanded your respect because of their exemplary behavior and the examples they set in the community. Todays cop demands your respect by exhibiting the behavior and poor judgement such as in this incident.

 

[Steve in PA]

PA has implied consent also.

I still need a reason to stop you and another reason to administer a breath test.

 

[Control Group]

From what I understand, everything the cops did was legal.

"Legal" and "ethical" are not synonyms. Nor are "legal" and "decent," or "legal" and "right." As the old saying goes, just because you have a right to do something does not mean you are right to do it.

Police officers are granted extraordinary authority, as is required for them to do their admittedly difficult and dangerous jobs effectively. But like anything else, with granted authority comes expected responsibility. A citizen having the gall to believe what the Constitution says about unreasonable search (as interpreted by the courts to mean the requirements for probable cause, warrants, and the like) should not result in harassment, even harassment with a stain of legality.

I can understand the road blocks, and testing the kids as they come out of the party. I even understand not trusting the parent's word that there's no alcohol being served. I begin to object when kids are randomly breathalyzed without any PC, but I'm even willing to let that slide, because we know what would happen if the cops didn't test the kid and he killed a family while driving home drunk.

However, after finding absolutely no evidence of any wrong doing whatsoever, bludgeoning residents with petty laws that haven't been enforced with a citation in the last decade is petty, spiteful, and an absolute abuse of the authority with which the police have been entrusted. That the laws exist such that they can be used to harass and arbitrarily punish otherwise law-abiding citizens is a travesty in itself, that the police would go ahead and use them for just that purpose is an offense against any standard of decent behavior. It makes them nothing more than bullies.

Defense of law enforcement as a profession or as a group of people is admirable. Specific defense of bullying egomaniacs like these sounds of closing ranks against "the other side," and just might be the sort of thing that fosters an "us vs them" mentality.

 

[buzz_knox]

Control Group raises a good point. Is it legitimate to ticket illegally parked cars? Yes. It is legitimate to do so in retaliation for the exercise of one's rights? No. Such otherwise legitimate actions lead to a chilling effect on the exercise of one's rights.

 

[Harry Tuttle]

On a related Montgomery County MD note

The MD State Police were out in Rockville last weekend using night vision they borrowed fro the .mil to spot evil non seatbelt wearers

The Governor has now put a stop to that little effort
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Night vision nixed on seat belts
by Steven T. Dennis
Staff Writer
June 8, 2005
http://www.gazette.net/200523/montgomerycty/state/278696-1.html

Maryland State Police used high-tech night vision goggles borrowed from the military to nab 111 criminals last week on Rockville Pike.

The lawbreakers were not terrorists, burglars or even drunken drivers. They were violating the state's mandatory seat belt law.

Gov. Robert L. Ehrlich Jr. (R), who was not aware of the high-tech dragnet, put the kibosh on it Monday after news reports sparked a backlash.

"He wanted to nip it in the bud and make sure this wasn't a continuing practice," spokeswoman Shareese N. DeLeaver said. "He feels there is an appropriate use for night vision goggles but didn't feel that safety belt laws rose to that level."

Ehrlich said in a statement the police should continue to enforce the seat belt laws.

"State troopers will continue to use all appropriate resources to ensure that Maryland's drivers are buckled up," Ehrlich said.

Police spokesman Greg Shipley said the pilot program was thought up by the Rockville barracks commander, Lt. Dan Cornwell, who borrowed the goggles for free from the Maryland National Guard.

Over a three-hour period Wednesday night, 3,200 cars were scanned and 111 $25 citations were issued.

The technology worked successfully, Shipley said, but "you have to consider other factors," such as public perception and the amount of manpower needed to mount the operation.

Although the governor ordered the police to put a stop to the practice, the citations are still valid.

"They do have a right to come to court," Shipley said.

Shipley said that the motivation is to save lives.

Last year, 315 out of 643 people killed on Maryland roads were not wearing a seatbelt. About 80 percent of Maryland drivers abide by the seatbelt law.

State police have issued more than 30,000 tickets and warnings for seat belt violations so far in 2005, Shipley said.

"Obviously the vast majority of those were done without night vision and we will continue to do that," Shipley said.

State law requires drivers and right front seat passengers as well as rear seat passengers 15 and younger to be buckled.

The pilot came as state troopers have been increasing traffic enforcement efforts, according to the governor's office. During the Memorial Day weekend, drunken-driving arrests increased 50 percent and traffic citations jumped 54 percent while crashes dropped 10 percent. Criminal arrests also jumped 22 percent and drug arrests increased 92 percent.

 

[Roadkill]

"From what I understand, everything the cops did was legal."

This applied to both Hitler and Saddam Hussein. Being legal doesn't make it right.

rk

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I sincerely hope the "neighbors" who called in the complaint received some of the parking tickets.

However, as usual I am confused. The complaint was about ... let me see if I understood this correctly ... NOISE? So the police department dispatched the alcohol squad, who went to the door of the house and instead of simply asking the parent to please tone down the noise (a possibly legitimate request, if the noise level was in fact excessive), they asked to interrupt the party and run breathalyzers on all the kids?

Cognitive dissonance alert! (i.e. logical disconnect)

 

[shield20]

Cops were jerks - not doubt about it. We had 'em in our dept., as I am sure there are in most depts. Power hungry or whatever - they forget (or worse do not care) how their actions can effect the civilians, the very ones we are supposed to serve and protect, for the rest of their lives. Use a little intelligence boys, and come down here with the rest of us - who would love to support you in doing a really tough job, but only if you earn our respect by doing the RIGHT thing.

 

[centac]

".....by doing the RIGHT thing."

Of course, the right thing is whatever
you decide it should be.

Don't want a parking ticket, don't park illegally, sorry, it is just that simple.

 

[Mr. X]

Not to mention that now we have one more class of highschool graduates who will never become cops themselves. A lot of these students are going to find themselves in a college atmosphere where police are routinely demonized. Thanks to this experience they will have no reason to doubt what they hear in that environement.

Which is why I believe that we're scraping the bottom of the barrel for LE personel and coming up with a majority from the lower echelons of society who have a massive (but probably not unwarranted) inferiority complex.

 

[Strings]

Centac: nobody's arguing that the tickets were bogus. But are you paying attention to the fact that it was the "alchohol inforcement squad" tht was writing tickets AFTER THEY COULDN'T FIND ANYTHING ELSE{/b]? That smacks of "retaliation", and a Cartman attitude...

If police want respect, they need to earn it, just like anyone else. Sounds like this crew went a long way twords earning nothing but contempt...

edited to fix typos

 

[centac]

So what difference does their assignment make? They saw violations and acted on them. Unless they had other calls to handle, what else do ya want'em to do - ignore them? Why should they? Suppose they observed a minor traffic accident while there, should they not get involved in that either?


Using "South Park" to buttress a position speaks volumes about the quality of the thesis.

 

[odysseus]

Centac:

I dont get paid to lose or walk away.

Wow. I thought this was about a party of graduating high school students. Reading that makes me doubt you are a LEO. It's not a game. You are hired by the people you are to protect. Ideological fancy talk? No. I am sure other LEO's here cringed when they read what you wrote.

 

[jefnvk]

SO, the real problem everyone is having is with the parking tickets?

I thought I mentioned earlier that that was something I thought their boss should have talked to them about. Post #13:

The parking tickets? Sound like they were mad, but if the tickets were legit, I can't really be mad over that. If I were their supervisor, I may have a talk about decision making, though.

The parking tickets were probably a bad idea. Like I mentioned, the officer should be talked to regarding his judgement.

And just a question for those that have been at parties that have been broken up for underage drinking (if there are any here), how does that work? Do they need a warrant, or if they have calls, are they legally allowed to enter? Just trying to figure out how a real case where they know there is underage drinking going on would compare to this one.

 

[scottgun]

And just a question for those that have been at parties that have been broken up for underage drinking (if there are any here), how does that work? Do they need a warrant, or if they have calls, are they legally allowed to enter? Just trying to figure out how a real case where they know there is underage drinking going on would compare to this one.

Parents are usually out of town when underage house parties occur. So if a cop knocks on the door and no adult is present, that would be a good indicator. Also when the front door is open and you seen teenagers doing keg stands or beer funnels in the background, thats another indicator. Also, at underage drinking parties, when the cops show up at the door, teens are scrambling out the backdoor to leave. That serves the purpose of breaking up the party, but now you have drunk teens on the loose to drive or go somewhere else and cause trouble.

I wouldn't know about teenage parties where the parents were home and the teens were drinking. But the above is my experience.

 

[Yowza]

Don't want a parking ticket, don't park illegally, sorry, it is just that simple.

No centac, it is not just that simple. There is no reason to assume that it's illegal to park with your tire touching the curb. In fact, in my state when you park facing downhill, you're supposed to turn your wheels into the curb, thereby making it almost a certainty that you would have a tire touching. If an act involving something so everyday as parking isn't obviously wrong, then why would anyone know it's against the law?

They saw violations and acted on them.

No, they didn't. They saw parked cars that no cop not bent on being a total jerk would have even thought twice about. Violations!

I dont get paid to lose or walk away.

So have you ever planted evidence? What else could you do if you don't find anything if you can't "lose" and walk away?

Rick

 

[HankB]

Ryan Hamm, 17, said he was tested as he walked from the house to his car. No alcohol was detected, he said.

THIS is the part of the story that saddens me most - that today's teens are SO meek and compliant they'll do ANYTHING a cop tells them to.

Back in my high school days, there were a couple of incidents where cops pulled over a car full of teens, and tested the driver for DUI under the "implied consent" law . . . when the driver blew 0.00 (we early on learned about designated drivers) the few occasions where they tried to get the passengers to blow into the breathalyzer, they were politely (sometimes not so politely) told to get bent.

They didn't like this at all, but we KNEW the I.C. law pertained to DRIVERS, not PASSENGERS.

You know, once people found out a bunch of cop cars were staking out the neighborhood, someone should have called the news media. If these LEOs wanted a circus, they should have been given one. Cameras, floods, and maybe a news chopper or two would've been a GREAT response. And maybe this would get the NAMES of these fine upstanding representatives of the law published.

 

[CleverName]

Maybe it's just me, but couldn't the Rotgut squad find some other party to break up? I mean, if everybody they stop blows a zero, they really should try to find some other party. As somebody noted, 9:30 on a Friday, there are other parties with other, probably much more drunk people than party with a band. It seems like they were bent on punishing people for obeying the law and (Heaven forbid!) exercising their constitutional rights.

And in CA, a license implies consent. In fact, a refusal to take a BAC test is a crime with jail time/fine here.

 

[2nd Amendment]

The parking tickets are NOT what everyone is upset about. At least not me. When the mom, the property opner, the person in charge(the cops were NOT in charge here) said no the po-po needed to leave. Go away. Get lost. Stay lost...or get a warrant if they actually believed there was a problem.

As for submitting to a breathalyzer while walking? Not a prayer, and I do hope you arrest me Mr Officer because I'd like to have my college paid for by the city.

Roadblocks...It's offensive but I can see the reasoning and even the legitimacy...maybe.

Tickets after the fact...sour grapes. They carved in stone the perception that was already being established with the demands to enter in the first place. The fact is, though, that in the end the only people who lost here were the police. The kids will have a healthy suspicion from now on and with the way LE is heading in this country that's a damn good thing.