police have to fire my gun?

[keithslater]

By the way, the firing has to be done at the cobis center by the state trooper.

 

[Gun Fever]

thanks for the info keith-but my shop is telling me that they have been leaving messages and no one has gottten back to them yet, is that normal?

 

[Good&Fruity]

I noticed that when I bought my Glock. But I live in WA, I didn't realize they did that here. It's bad enough they have the dreaded handgun registraion form. :rollseyes:

 

[toivo]

I am sure they do not come with fired casings. We have the cobis done before putting them in the case. With special orders, or if someone asks, we will sell them the firearm then they have to wait until we can get them fired. We have to make an appointment. Like I said, we drive 100 miles for this. I would give the dealer a break.

OK, thanks. Somebody told me that FFLs could do this themselves, but I guess he was wrong.

Gander probably batches all their new handguns to get them done before putting them out, as you say.

 

[SDC]

"A CASING has minimal contact time with a fairly uniform element of the gun. Most firing pins and extractors look exactly the same(especially new) when just a glance will show you differences in most barrels. Casings are pointless to rely on."

Actually, since the markings on a case are just another type of tool-mark (just the same as the markings on a fired bullet), they ARE just as specific to a given firearm as any of the other marks that an examiner will look at. The below example shows a match between a fired case picked up at the scene of a drug hit, and a test-fired cartridge out of a pistol that was taken off of a competing drug dealer several months later. The system has made some pretty surprising matches, separated by time and distance. In one that I worked on, the system was able to pick up a hit between two shootings that happened 14 months and 800 km away from each other. The REAL problem with these "fingerprinting" programs is that they fill the system up with a lot of extraneous garbage that also show up as "possible" matches, that you then have to wade through one by one to weed out the hits from the non-hits, which wastes the very time that the system was supposed to save in the first place.

 

[lizziedog1]

I wonder how the new yorker's would react to a law demanding a record of every book you bought.

Is there any kind of similar testing done in New York when applying for a marriage license?

How can it be legal for a state (or any) government to compel citizens to surrender property that is rightly their own with no legal basis to do so?

The IRS does it all the time.

 

[nofishbob]

SDC-

Can you explain a little about how the cases hown on each side of your comparison picture match?

To my untrained eye, they have nothing in common.

What should I be looking at to determine that they match?

Thanks!

Bob

 

[SDC]

In the above example, the match is confirmed by the striations left by the edges of the firing-pin hole in the breechface (when a cartridge is fired, the internal pressure forces the primer cup back against the breechface, and even slightly into the firing pin hole), so as the pistol functions, and the rear of the barrel drops down out of battery in the slide, the "wipe" motion leaves the same pattern of lines on each primer/case. In the above picture, the crime scene exhibit is on the left, and the test fire is on the right; the short horizontal markings on either side of the vertical white line are the ones that confirm these as being fired in the same pistol. You can also see matches made on the basis of plain breechface markings (through machining marks left when the slide is milled), on the basis of firing pin machining marks, on the basis of ejector markings, and on the basis of chamber marks.

 

[Black Butte]

If you get a gun chambered for an out-of-the-ordinary caliber, do you also have to furnish the police with ammunition?

 

[daorhgih]

"Finger-print" of firing-pin

How quickly can the BG strip his auto-loader and swap-out the firing-pin? Or simply "speed-hone" the tip of it with a handy Swiss-army-tool? I routinely fire and retain two rounds from all my hand-guns, using wet-pack, and hand deliver one set of brass and bullet to the local P.D. When I sell (very seldom!) the gun the I.D. evidence I have made goes with it, as does a info-only note to the P.D.

 

[bearcreek]

You do that voluntarily?

 

[keithslater]

"thanks for the info keith-but my shop is telling me that they have been leaving messages and no one has gottten back to them yet, is that normal?"



We call and make an appointment. Sometimes we leave a message and they call back and make an appointment. We have had to wait a while before because the guy is on vacation.
Here is a link with some info:
http://troopers.ny.gov/faqs/firearms/CoBIS/
It does state that the manufactures have to supply them after a certain date. I am unsure why it says that, because they all don't.

 

[daorhgih]

"Fired-case and bullet" tracing

Yep; voluntarily. When you buy a new gun, there is usually a fired-case &/or
bullet in the hard-case. There is also another one, along with the gun's serial # and FFL dealer who got the gun for resale. FBI / BATFyou rule. What causes you to ask? I've nothing to hide. Dao.

 

[atblis]

Nothing a little emery cloth wouldn't take care of.

How quickly can the BG strip his auto-loader and swap-out the firing-pin? Or simply "speed-hone" the tip of it with a handy Swiss-army-tool? I routinely fire and retain two rounds from all my hand-guns, using wet-pack, and hand deliver one set of brass and bullet to the local P.D. When I sell (very seldom!) the gun the I.D. evidence I have made goes with it, as does a info-only note to the P.D.

Yeah, and they probably throw the brass and bullets straight in the trash when you leave.

 

[bearcreek]

I just can't imagine giving information like that to any government organization if it's not required. Do you also give them the serial number and report how much ammo you buy? I don't have anything to hide either but I'm certainly not going to give information about myself and my private property to a government organization unless legally required to do so.

 

[WALKERs210]

I had an issue with one police chief here in this little bump on the map. He was always wanting to test fire my weapons, but not to make matches of anything he just liked my collection. I still can not understand how the people of this country have allowed so many of our rights to be trampled on and swept aside and with no positive results from the action.

 

[monet61]

This is very disturbing. A law abiding citizen having to put up with that is; well disturbing is the mildest word I can come up with.

 

[david58]

In the above example, the match is confirmed by the striations left by the edges of the firing-pin hole in the breechface (when a cartridge is fired, the internal pressure forces the primer cup back against the breechface, and even slightly into the firing pin hole), so as the pistol functions, and the rear of the barrel drops down out of battery in the slide, the "wipe" motion leaves the same pattern of lines on each primer/case. In the above picture, the crime scene exhibit is on the left, and the test fire is on the right; the short horizontal markings on either side of the vertical white line are the ones that confirm these as being fired in the same pistol. You can also see matches made on the basis of plain breechface markings (through machining marks left when the slide is milled), on the basis of firing pin machining marks, on the basis of ejector markings, and on the basis of chamber marks.

So we have established then that every firearm is unique - no two are alike? I would have to raise the BS flag on that one.

First, I would question the fact that what percentage of the shell casing is matching? Very little.

Second, what is the statistical validity of this technique? Has there been any kind of POD study done (probability of detection) for this measurement technique? I know for a fact there hasn't - it would be far too complex and far too expensive to do so for all guns/calibers/casings.

What if the perp uses a steel case round instead of brass? Nickel washed cases? What about variation in the hardness of the cases from run to run? All would have an influence on what markings were left.

I work in the world of testing. I have to be able to prove statistically that my test is repeatable, and only then can I rely on what the results are to draw conclusions that we can make monetary and risk decisions on. And this BS that we are being fed about ballistic fingerprinting is dealing with people's lives. And sadly, too many LEO's and DA's and jurors believe that if someone has been arrested and is on trial, well, they musta done it!

If that bolt face, or firing pin, or whatever, is one of six or eight in a CNC machine, mounted up and cut with the same tool, robotically, there is very high likelihood that those six parts will be doggone close in appearance. Close enough that you could say they were all cut on the same machine. Too doggone close to be able to match a gun to a case.

And all this ends up being based on the OPINION of somebody in a white lab coat that may have no idea about metallurgy, machining, or validation of data. And dishonest DA's and/or LEO's who may so want a conviction that they cannot or will not understand the astonishing lack of science behind this "TV science."

This me off! Simply because we have some unscientific idea that gets plastered across the news and on fantasy TV shows and the gullible public (and law enforcement and politicians) want it to be true. :banghead:

Signed: Curmudgeonly Engineer

 

[Big_E]

^^^
Calm down dude.

Technology is still advancing in this field. There are many types of imaging equipment coming out that show more 3-dimensional images and brings out the most microscopic tool marks. Even if the parts are machined together, they will look similar but there will be minute microscopic differences. When I toured the Remington factory in NY, one of the engineers giving us the tour explained this in detail.

Firearms Examiners have to go through rigorous training. Not all examiners know everything about metallurgy and machining, but the best of them know a lot about it.

I don't know why people on here are demonizing them, many of the forensic scientists I know are die hard gun enthusiasts.

Earlier I may have said that bullet matching has convicted people, I should have said that it is part of damning evidence to help convict criminals. I believe that there are also instances where toolmark identification has proven people innocent, but I need to look that up.

 

[david58]

^^^
Calm down dude.

Technology is still advancing in this field. There are many types of imaging equipment coming out that show more 3-dimensional images and brings out the most microscopic tool marks. Even if the parts are machined together, they will look similar but there will be minute microscopic differences. When I toured the Remington factory in NY, one of the engineers giving us the tour explained this in detail.

Firearms Examiners have to go through rigorous training. Not all examiners know everything about metallurgy and machining, but the best of them know a lot about it.

I don't know why people on here are demonizing them, many of the forensic scientists I know are die hard gun enthusiasts.

Earlier I may have said that bullet matching has convicted people, I should have said that it is part of damning evidence to help convict criminals. I believe that there are also instances where toolmark identification has proven people innocent, but I need to look that up.

Nope, no reason for this dude to calm down.

Tell you why: "Technology is still advancing in this area."

Translation: This is unproven pseudoscience.

Until the findings can be backed statistically, with validated and proven test results both for the technology and the "rigorous training" that the forensic folks have to go thru, and to prove that we cannot have a situation where we have an experiment in search of a desired result, this is worse than pseudoscience. It is truly dangerous.

Now head on back to class. Sorry to sound like a smarta$$, but this DUDE has been in the test and evaluation world for over 30 years. Stop being starstruck by the hollywood and the whiz-bang, and look carefully and understand if we cannot validate it, it isn't a test. What scares me is the ability of a DA to convince a gullible jury who has seen this stuff work on TV, when there is no way to demonstrate a repeatability or reliability of the measurement you are using to manufacture damning evidence in the eyes of a jury.

 

[Gun Fever]

TELL EM DAVE

 

[Lord Teapot]

Is there any kind of similar testing done in New York when applying for a marriage license?



The IRS does it all the time.

eminent domain: the government's right to seize any private property. this is just another example of the slowly creeping blanket of facism that seems to be moving across the country.

 

[bigfatdave]

david58

<slow-clap.gif>

 

[bearcreek]

David58, very well said sir.

 

[Larry E]

That's the height of something, but common sense it ain't.