Powder for 45-70 used for CAS side matches only

[JimGnitecki]

This is a perfect application for Buffalo Rifle (very close to AA5744). I use 25.5 grains under a 405 Hi-Tek coated cast bullet. Out of a Cavalry Carbine replica Pedersoli Trapdoor 45-70 I'm at 1200 fps. Your sharps has a lot of room to drop that because of the much longer barrel, maybe start at around 24.5 grains with a 405, I'd guess would get you near the same velocity on your Sharps. This is a < 18,000 psi load.

For CAS, it's my understanding that plated is not legal for most classes in CAS, but Hi-Tek coating is legal.

Unfortunately, I have never seen, or been able to find on Google, any Buffalo Rifle powder in Canada. And yes, I have confirmed that plated bullets are not allowed in CAS.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Using Vihtavuori's own burn rate chart as a reference I looked to N120 as an alternate to I4198 when the prices on IMR powders skyrocketed. With some judicious studying, powder modeling and a little prayer I found N120 to be a slightly slower powder compared to I4198, due to faster velocities with the same powder charges.




The fast rifle powders are very common for use in mild loads of 45-70 with cast projectiles certainly. Case fill doesn't always need to be high to produce good results.

My chrono data from using I4198 when my old chronograph would do it's job right were single digits.

I did check out Vihtavuori's own load tables on line, and yes, they do show using the N120 and I think some other VV powders as well, BUT they all have STARTING loads that are very much higher than I want to shoot cast bullets at: 1600 fps and upward for ALL the VV loads listed. I want to be at 1400 fps maximum.

Jim G

 

[EricBu]

Unfortunately, I have never seen, or been able to find on Google, any Buffalo Rifle powder in Canada. And yes, I have confirmed that plated bullets are not allowed in CAS.

Look for Lovex powders. Canada has a Lovex importer, you'll just have to find what label they sell under.

 

[Charlie98]

I am also now going to research die sets. I already ordered a Lee Factory Crimp 45-70 die, but need to figure out which 3-die (sizing, expanding, and bullet seating) set is the one to get. Anyone got any recommendations on preferred sets and why?

Jim, I forgot to mention dies. A few things...

1) Shooting a single shot, you will not need to crimp. The general burn range of the powders you are using will benefit very little from a crimp... you have all that barrel for the powder to burn completely. I have experimented with crimp vs non-crimp in my Pedersoli... I've seen no benefit.

2) Like loading cast pistol bullets, you will need a die that sizes the inside of the case neck and slightly opens the case mouth... the solution to that is the Lyman M-die (there are others... NOE expander, for example.) The Lyman M-die opens the case neck to a uniform size so as not to swage a cast bullet down during seating, and a second 'step' in the mandrel will actually open the case mouth slightly more to start the bullet without shaving.

3) I have a set of RCBS Cowboy dies for my .45-70, they include RCBS's version of the stepped expander (similar in function to the M-die...) in the 3-die set.

This is a photo of one of my M-dies... you can see the bottom part of the plug will expand the case neck area, and if you look for the shiny further up the plug, that is the second 'step' in the expander that opens the case mouth every so slightly to start the bullet.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Jim, I forgot to mention dies. A few things...

1) Shooting a single shot, you will not need to crimp. The general burn range of the powders you are using will benefit very little from a crimp... you have all that barrel for the powder to burn completely. I have experimented with crimp vs non-crimp in my Pedersoli... I've seen no benefit.

2) Like loading cast pistol bullets, you will need a die that sizes the inside of the case neck and slightly opens the case mouth... the solution to that is the Lyman M-die (there are others... NOE expander, for example.) The Lyman M-die opens the case neck to a uniform size so as not to swage a cast bullet down during seating, and a second 'step' in the mandrel will actually open the case mouth slightly more to start the bullet without shaving.

3) I have a set of RCBS Cowboy dies for my .45-70, they include RCBS's version of the stepped expander (similar in function to the M-die...) in the 3-die set.

This is a photo of one of my M-dies... you can see the bottom part of the plug will expand the case neck area, and if you look for the shiny further up the plug, that is the second 'step' in the expander that opens the case mouth every so slightly to start the bullet.

View attachment 1152167

I did not see your posting until just now. Yesterday, I looked very hard at RCBS, Hornady, and Lee die sets. Each one has its "features" list, and each one has its advocates. I settled on the Hornady die set primarily for one reason. Hornady offers an accessory called the "Microjust Seating Stem". This replaces the seating height adjuster on any of Hornady's seating dies. It enables a user to adjust the bullet seating height via a micrometer. This feature is normally only available on the more costly die sets from die makers. This accessory offering from Hornady enables me to get that feature onto Hornady's 45-70 die set.

This is a desirable feature from my perspective for a couple of reasons:

- It enables me to more quickly and easily get to the target COAL or BTO, and with reliable repeatability if I do some "what if" testing on bullet jump versus jamming into the rifling

- It enables me to more quickly and easily incrementally alter the target COAL or BTO, and with reliable repeatability, while testing the effects of changing COAL or BTO

- It facilitates more accurate testing and repeatability, and numerical recordkeeping, when I test different bullets of either the same weight or different weights, with differing shapes that change BTO even with the same COAL

So that ended up making the decision easier for me.

It also helped that Amazon.ca had both the Microjust and the die set in stock (my local sources in total had only ONE 45-70 RCBS die set in stock!), and since we have an Amazon.ca Prime account, shipping was free and FAST.

The die set inventory / shipping situation was particularly interesting. Amazon.ca is just a "marketplace" where many vendors sell their stuff. In this specific case, the actual vendor is a Canadian dealer that I often buy from, who offers the die set via EITHER Amazon.ca or shipped from them directly. The Amazon.ca price is only a couple dollars higher than the direct dealer price, but factoring in the shipping cost and shipping time, the Amazon route is slightly less costly and much faster! Similar situations exist for other shooting items, including the "petal shaped" cleaning patches I like, and cleaning jags. More choices and much faster deliveries from Amazon than from direct dealer sources at similar pricing. There are serious exceptions though where a dealer offer on Amazon is ridiculously priced and delivery is glacial, even for a customer with an Amazon Prime account. You have to read the pricing and delivery offers very carefully!

Jim G

 

[Seedy Character]

I am a 4198 and 3031 fan.

Surprised that nobody has suggested holy black. Shoot that .45-70 the way it was meant to be shot.

 

[JimGnitecki]

I am a 4198 and 3031 fan.

Surprised that nobody has suggested holy black. Shoot that .45-70 the way it was meant to be shot.

I want to stay away from black powder, primarily because I cannot always clean my firearms right after a range session, and because I cannot accept putting water into a firearm deliberately.

Jim G

 

[AJC1]

I am a 4198 and 3031 fan.

Surprised that nobody has suggested holy black. Shoot that .45-70 the way it was meant to be shot.

Does Canada have a source of black powder.... from what I seem to recall our only producer us now gone. Went the way of our last lead smelting facility.

 

[Charlie98]

Does Canada have a source of black powder.... from what I seem to recall our only producer us now gone. Went the way of our last lead smelting facility.

If they do, it probably comes directly from Europe.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Does Canada have a source of black powder.... from what I seem to recall our only producer us now gone. Went the way of our last lead smelting facility.

Canadian dealers sell black powder, real and synthetic, all the time, but I don't know where the black powder being sold is made.

Jim G

 

[coondogger]

I too have a Pedersoli Sharps. After a bit of experimenting with various recipes I settled on a 405 cast bullet driven by Accurate 5744. I started with Lyman's load data which stipulates 26.0 grains of powder. I subsequently abandoned that for Lee's recipe which uses 24.3 grains. I like to use as much powder as is needed to get the job done; and not a grain more. This recipe will get you out to 100 yards with a flat trajectory and very little recoil. I further suggest the use of a tang peep sight. These can have even a presbyopia afflicted geezer shooting like a Boer.

 

[coondogger]

Yes Sir Jim, AA5744 is probably your best choice for your application.

I used to use nothing other than 4198 for cast 45-70 ammo. With jacketed bullets (which were rare) I used 3031. Once I gave AA5744 I never used any other powder in the 45-70. Like you noticed it is very fluffy so the case fill is good. The powder lights easily and burns completely too. Pressures are fairly low compared to some other powders generating similar velocities. Accuracy has always been good in both my rifles. What's not to like? Add the fact you said it's available near you, I would think it's worth buying a pound and giving it a try.

The Trapdoor load data runs from 24gr to 29gr AA5744 with a 405gr cast bullet. My Trapdoor rifle shoots accurately with the 29.0gr load but of course you should try the entire range to see which is most accurate in your Sharps and which charge generates the velocity you are looking for.

Good luck on the CAS side matches!

This.

 

[AJC1]

This.

This initial post is way down the road from this initial post.....

 

[coondogger]

This initial post is way down the road from this initial post.....

oops. forgot to add the attributing quote. I'll fix it later when I take a break from work.

 

[JimGnitecki]

The 5744 has proven to be a GREAT choice. The standard deviations are single digit, with both cast and jacketed bullets, and primers look great,

Jim G