Cool Hand Luke 22:36
member
Speak for yourself. I don't hold with that opinion at all.
The US justice system provides more protection for the innocent, and better conditions of incarceration, than the vast majority of other nations.
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Prison rape
- Thread starter zahc
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Speak for yourself. I don't hold with that opinion at all.
The US justice system provides more protection for the innocent, and better conditions of incarceration, than the vast majority of other nations.
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
Preacherman speaks the truth.
I was a prison guard for five months in 1980. The prison supposedly took action against rapists; then again, many the guards were breaking lots of rules, and weren't, in fact, more than half a notch above some of the inmates.
There's never any jutification for a.) rape, or b.) turning a blind eye to it.
justice4all
Member
I have a friend that was raped in prison.
He heard His wife scream in the night, woke up and found a creep coming at Him with a pick handle. He shot the SOB. That part was OK, but then, He panicked, and shot the perp again, while the perp was on the floor. He drew a jury of urban liberals, and a 10 year sentence.
He never deserved prison, for a minute.
Just one more reason why I live in Colorado.
He heard His wife scream in the night, woke up and found a creep coming at Him with a pick handle. He shot the SOB. That part was OK, but then, He panicked, and shot the perp again, while the perp was on the floor. He drew a jury of urban liberals, and a 10 year sentence.
He never deserved prison, for a minute.
Just one more reason why I live in Colorado.
Aguila Blanca
Member
Yes
thorn726
Member
Thank God
from what i hear, it is NOT quite as bad as we often hear, but it sure does happen.
WHAT DOES HAPPEN= fights, stealing, constant beatings.
a friend of mine, smaller guy, idiot, spent 2 years in pen= one of the few who learned his lesson, he really got back on track-
how bad was it? "well, after the first FOUR MONTHs i wasn't being beaten down every day"
yeah, pretty bad. he basically had to fight multiple adversaries constantly, and the COs do little to stop it.
i really think prisons at this point have gone beyond cruel and unusual to downright torture, essentially pure physical and mental cruelty for the most part.
Unless of course, you are a HUGE hardcore criminal/.
that's the bigger problem. half the prisoners are enjoying the heck out of being the "tough guy" in prison.
so some end up tortured, others end up turning harder, very very few are rehabilitated in any sense of the word.
from what i hear, it is NOT quite as bad as we often hear, but it sure does happen.
WHAT DOES HAPPEN= fights, stealing, constant beatings.
a friend of mine, smaller guy, idiot, spent 2 years in pen= one of the few who learned his lesson, he really got back on track-
how bad was it? "well, after the first FOUR MONTHs i wasn't being beaten down every day"
yeah, pretty bad. he basically had to fight multiple adversaries constantly, and the COs do little to stop it.
i really think prisons at this point have gone beyond cruel and unusual to downright torture, essentially pure physical and mental cruelty for the most part.
Unless of course, you are a HUGE hardcore criminal/.
that's the bigger problem. half the prisoners are enjoying the heck out of being the "tough guy" in prison.
so some end up tortured, others end up turning harder, very very few are rehabilitated in any sense of the word.
thorn726
Member
this is so far from true. sure, a good portion of them are, but that's the problem.
those guys you mention are all you hear about.
there are tons of "prey" in there also, idiots who just screwed up, mostly drug addicts, plenty of people who well deserve to be taken off the streets (drunk drivers come to mind), but do they desreve to be beaten daily???
is that American???
AS USUAL= the 2nd Amendment is the only one that really stands on The High Road
Preacherman
Member
Thorn, I'm afraid you're wrong. Criminals get to be criminals by preying on others. Some do it at a distance, through crimes like fraud, ID theft, and other so-called "white-collar" crimes. Some do it up close and personal, through crimes of violence, theft, burglary, etc. However, by definition, all of them - I repeat, ALL of them - are basically preying on others. They've now been sentenced to a term in jail for their crimes, and are locked up with all the other predators. Some of them are more predatory than others.
There are very few people locked up by mistake - I'd reckon less than 1% overall. This is still a troubling number of people: with over 2 million in the US penal system at the moment, even half-a-percent would mean that there are some 10,000 innocent persons locked up with the guilty. We do our very best to safeguard the health and safety of all our inmates, the good and the bad: and I think that on the whole, we do a pretty darn good job. We didn't put any of them there, but we have to keep them there - innocent or guilty.
However, if you lock up hundreds and hundreds of predators within spitting distance of each other, you are inevitably going to have a problem with increased predation. It's the nature of the beast. You have three choices:
1. Become a survivor, by being too dangerous for a would-be predator to tackle (which can include banding together with others for mutual defence);
2. Become a serious predator yourself, and thus be accepted by the other "top dogs" (and perhaps join one of their gangs);
3. Become a victim.
There are no other choices in this environment... so take your pick. Innocent or guilty, those are your options.
There are very few people locked up by mistake - I'd reckon less than 1% overall. This is still a troubling number of people: with over 2 million in the US penal system at the moment, even half-a-percent would mean that there are some 10,000 innocent persons locked up with the guilty. We do our very best to safeguard the health and safety of all our inmates, the good and the bad: and I think that on the whole, we do a pretty darn good job. We didn't put any of them there, but we have to keep them there - innocent or guilty.
However, if you lock up hundreds and hundreds of predators within spitting distance of each other, you are inevitably going to have a problem with increased predation. It's the nature of the beast. You have three choices:
1. Become a survivor, by being too dangerous for a would-be predator to tackle (which can include banding together with others for mutual defence);
2. Become a serious predator yourself, and thus be accepted by the other "top dogs" (and perhaps join one of their gangs);
3. Become a victim.
There are no other choices in this environment... so take your pick. Innocent or guilty, those are your options.
El Rojo
Member
I was a teacher at a federal low and minimum security facility for nearly three years. I don't recall more than one case of a sexual assault in our two facilities. The low and minimum federal levels are pretty laid back. Unless you are a child molestor or a snitch, there is really little reason for you to request protective custody (PC). Being stuck in the SHU (special housing unit, the hole) is not fun because you can't watch TV, go to the store, play any number of recreational sports, work in the hobby shop, make clay sculptures, gamble with your friends, or use the law library in person.
There were plenty of "females" (its a male prison, but they think they are a girls) in our facility that were more than willing to perform services for you that you didn't need to go about raping people. Also, we had a fair number of female staff that were willing to give it up unfortunately.
Prison is a very interesting place. I know we had it pretty good where I was at, nothing like our PRK state system. I could see being concerned in one of those places. However on the federal side, that is some easy time that any one of us here wouldn't have much trouble doing. In fact, if weren't a felony, it would almost be worth it to have a year or two off of having responsibilties of the real world. Look no further than Martha Stewart for evidence of this.
As far as condoning rape? It never happened where I was at. I knew exactly who the child molestors and rapists were and as tempting as it was to drop their cover, we followed the rules and did not. If inmates were harrasing other inmates, you report it and stop it. Were all of the staff good people and did the right thing? No. The vast majority did though.
There were plenty of "females" (its a male prison, but they think they are a girls) in our facility that were more than willing to perform services for you that you didn't need to go about raping people. Also, we had a fair number of female staff that were willing to give it up unfortunately.
Prison is a very interesting place. I know we had it pretty good where I was at, nothing like our PRK state system. I could see being concerned in one of those places. However on the federal side, that is some easy time that any one of us here wouldn't have much trouble doing. In fact, if weren't a felony, it would almost be worth it to have a year or two off of having responsibilties of the real world. Look no further than Martha Stewart for evidence of this.
As far as condoning rape? It never happened where I was at. I knew exactly who the child molestors and rapists were and as tempting as it was to drop their cover, we followed the rules and did not. If inmates were harrasing other inmates, you report it and stop it. Were all of the staff good people and did the right thing? No. The vast majority did though.
Fletchette
Member
There are plenty of people in prison right now because they put the wrong spring in their shotgun. How did they prey on other people?
When people joke about "going to prison and meeting Bubba" they are condoning the idea that rape is normal, and therefore accepted, in prison. This is wrong in so many ways, some of which I listed before. Yet consider one more reason that this is a bad thing...
Why did people cower and not rebel against Saddam Hussain? Ans- they were scared out of thier minds of going to prison and being raped and tortured. In Iraq, it was the guards that would do such things. In the U.S., the guards sometimes do it, but it is generally accepted that other inmates will (hence the Bubba jokes). The effect is the same. People are scared out of their minds to oppose the government for fear of being sent to prison and being raped and tortured. This is inhehently unAmerican.
People, all people, even criminals, have rights. Violating those rights hurts society as well as the immediate victim.
For all those inclined to look the other way on this issue because "prisoners are bad", I ask you this. What would you do if the government sent you a letter telling you to turn in your gun. Would you risk going to prison?
jefnvk
Member
Show me some examples. I don't see how springs would send you to prison, anyways.
I don't think it was rape that was on their minds, but of disappearing and never being heard from again.
People should be scared out of their mind to go to prison. But is the average person where I live scared to oppose the gov't? Absolutely not.
Fletchette
Member
I guess you haven't been paying attention to our favorite Federal agency lately. The infamous "9 piece gun" rule is a good example. If you have 9 American made parts on an otherwise imported gun, it is ok. If only 8, you have committed a felony. Meet Bubba.
Funny you have mentioned this. Ask Hose Pedia if this is happening in the U.S.
So the average person where you live would not register/forfeit their firearms and risk going to prison (and meeting Bubba)? Brave neighborhood.
rock jock
Member
All rapists should be put to death, in prison and out.
jefnvk
Member
Actually, it is 10 or less foreign parts, if the gun is in an unimportable configuration that will get you in trouble. It is how many foreign parts that matter, not how many American parts.
And seeing how springs aren't on that list, my original statement stands.
Even with that law, I haven't heard of anyone being prosecuted. If you have any ccases, I'd like to know.
No, the average person I know isn't thinking 'Im not gonna do this, because I might meet bubba'
And if cops ever started going door to door, I think a lot of people would have more serious charges brought against them than failure to give up guns.
I don't know who he is, and I don't know if I really care who he is. Most people (at least I would think) are not trying to stay out of jail because they might be raped. They stay out because jail is simply somewhere you don't want to be.
El Rojo
Member
Plenty eh? How many? I got an idea for you, it doesn't matter how many; don't put the wrong spring in your shotgun and you won't go to prison. If you don't like that rule, then lets keep fighting to change it, but excuse me if I don't have a lot of sympathy for federal inmates. If I get busted on some minor gun charge and I have to go to prison, I don't expect any sympathy out of you either. I know the laws and if I choose to ignore them as a means of civil disobedience, then I also accept responsibility for getting caught.
Until the law changes, those are the rules. Break 'em and down river you might go. Anyone doing federal time for minor gun charges could be in much worse situations and they won't get much sympathy out of me. Sorry. I spent three years in a federal prison and they don't have it too rough. The worst part is just being behind a fence and not getting laid. It is a mental game more than a physical game. They can handle it.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
I'm retired from the MD system. I worked at both medium and max facilities.
All rape is about power and aggression. In prison, lots of people without any power and plenty of aggression are locked up in close proximity to others. Prison rape is a power trip more than sex. So's rape outside the system.
Rape happened at the institutions I worked at. More common was consensual sex. When two inmates were found while having sex, the first question that was asked was if force was involved. Both were also examined for any signs of a struggle.
Some prison rapists were well known to us, others maintained a low profile and picked their victims carefully. We watched the ones we knew, and made certain that their cell partners(Most MD cells are for two inmates) were not easy prey.
Dorms occur in prisons, my last institution had three in what had been the gym. One was quite large with over 100 inmates. Gang activity was monitored, but chronic short staffing meant some stuff went on unknown to us. Some gangs commit rapes and beatings just to make themselves look powerful. Advertising, as it were.
Rape is vile,wherever it happens and regardless of the personal worth of the victim. COs joke about "Bubba's B!tch" but all but the most stupid know that allowing rape leads to much trouble.
All rape is about power and aggression. In prison, lots of people without any power and plenty of aggression are locked up in close proximity to others. Prison rape is a power trip more than sex. So's rape outside the system.
Rape happened at the institutions I worked at. More common was consensual sex. When two inmates were found while having sex, the first question that was asked was if force was involved. Both were also examined for any signs of a struggle.
Some prison rapists were well known to us, others maintained a low profile and picked their victims carefully. We watched the ones we knew, and made certain that their cell partners(Most MD cells are for two inmates) were not easy prey.
Dorms occur in prisons, my last institution had three in what had been the gym. One was quite large with over 100 inmates. Gang activity was monitored, but chronic short staffing meant some stuff went on unknown to us. Some gangs commit rapes and beatings just to make themselves look powerful. Advertising, as it were.
Rape is vile,wherever it happens and regardless of the personal worth of the victim. COs joke about "Bubba's B!tch" but all but the most stupid know that allowing rape leads to much trouble.
Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
Let me give ou an example of a "minor gun charge": imagine a Mak90 receiver. Now count the pins on the side. A certain number is legal, one more pin, even without any select fire control parts, is apparently a felony. At least that was the explanation I got from a guy who manufactures MGs. Not having seen many AKMS receivers, how was the buyer to know he was committing a felony (possession of an unregistered machine gun)? "Unintended Consequences" wasn't that far off in describing the arbitrary and insance nature of gun laws.
TallPine
Member
Amazing logic ....
CAS700850
Member
First, as I am often in a position to argue, a crime is still a crime, even if the victim of that crime is, himself, a criminal. A murderer is no less guilty if his victim was a thief, a drug dealer, or even a fellow murderer. As for rape, it is still both criminal and wrong even if the "victim" is a convict serving time in a penetentiary.
So, why aren't more prison rapes prosecuted? Evidence. You need evidence to prosecute any crime. Rape is especially difficult, as you must prove the absence of consent, in addition to the sexual acts. In the prison setting, witnesses are difficult to find, out of a valid concern for their own safety. Victims often don't report, for fear of something worse the next time. Or, sometimes, they don't report until later, after the physical evidence has been damaged or lost.
Now, as for the corruption and randomness of the criminal justice system, I can say that for 10 years, I have been a prosecuting attorney. And, if the system is as corrupt as some people say it is, well I feel cheated, because I haven't gotten anything more than a paycheck every two weeks, some fringe benefits, and about 2500 rounds of training/qualifying/duty ammo. WHERE"S MY BRIBE MONEY?
So, why aren't more prison rapes prosecuted? Evidence. You need evidence to prosecute any crime. Rape is especially difficult, as you must prove the absence of consent, in addition to the sexual acts. In the prison setting, witnesses are difficult to find, out of a valid concern for their own safety. Victims often don't report, for fear of something worse the next time. Or, sometimes, they don't report until later, after the physical evidence has been damaged or lost.
Now, as for the corruption and randomness of the criminal justice system, I can say that for 10 years, I have been a prosecuting attorney. And, if the system is as corrupt as some people say it is, well I feel cheated, because I haven't gotten anything more than a paycheck every two weeks, some fringe benefits, and about 2500 rounds of training/qualifying/duty ammo. WHERE"S MY BRIBE MONEY?
Fletchette
Member
It is very doubtful that you know the laws. Federal laws today are commonly several pages long - each. Even the members of Congress do not read them.
Well, you are entitled to your opinion. However, I must point out that we, as a nation, were very critical of the German populace for this exact logic.
Fletchette
Member
I absolutely disagree. People in a just, sovereign government will obey the law because they believe in it. People in a dictatorship obey the law (even unjust ones) because they are afraid.
Allowing prison rape is one of the many tools of a dictatorship rising to power.
pcf
Member
Going to prison is not that hard. You don't have to be a hardened criminal, or even commit a crime.
Shoot someone in self defense, can't make bail, trial in 4 months, go to Prison.
Bail hearing isn't for 48 hours, jail's full, room in nearby prison, guess where you go?
I know I'm not the only one here that does not have $25,000 in reserve for bail money. Putting together bail money can take weeks.
Shoot someone in self defense, can't make bail, trial in 4 months, go to Prison.
Bail hearing isn't for 48 hours, jail's full, room in nearby prison, guess where you go?
I know I'm not the only one here that does not have $25,000 in reserve for bail money. Putting together bail money can take weeks.
jefnvk
Member
My point is, that the rape isn't the reason I (and most people I know) don't want to go to prison. Even if no one got raped in prison, I still wouldn't want to go.
I said that, because he stated that there were plenty of people in prison due to them putting on the wrong spring. I asked him to show me one case where that was why they were in prison. He made the accusation, it is up to him to prove it.
I said that, because he stated that there were plenty of people in prison due to them putting on the wrong spring. I asked him to show me one case where that was why they were in prison. He made the accusation, it is up to him to prove it.
TallPine
Member
jefnvk: but of course the law is still there, just waiting to be used against somebody.
And since it is the "law" then anyone breaking it even unintentionally is automatically a rotten person and deserving of punishment
And since it is the "law" then anyone breaking it even unintentionally is automatically a rotten person and deserving of punishment
10shooter
Member
I think this thread is about like talking about how bad alien abductions are. Yes its bad and we all hear about it but its still rare. Really where do you here about all these rapes; TV, movies the same ones that talk about all the machine guns on the streets. I have 11+ years of law enforcement, incuding the county jail which has an average population of nearly 4,000. I know of 2 jail rapes and both were prosecuted. Yes it happens, yes its rare, yes its prosecuted, yes some fall in love and date during and after prison.
cracked butt
Member
I feel pretty terrible about the whole situation, in fact I'll probably squirm in bed all night without sleep with the problem gnawing at me.
Here we have poor johnny who is in prison probably because he wasn't held enough as a child, had poor social skills, and had no choice but to make a few bad decisions while an adult. Johnny might have known that he would end up in prison for doing things like carjacking, armed robbery, dealing drugs, molesting children, or raping women, but he had no idea that prison could be such a hard unforgiving place. I think we can blame the media for always portraying prison as a summer camp-like setting and making johnny think that prison would be a place where everyone laughs, holds hands, and sings "its a small world." I'll go as far as to blame myself as I spend a great deal of my time working, paying taxes, taking care of my family, and yes, obeying laws instead of spending my time and money teaching the disadvantaged that prison is not a nice place. Maybe I'm just a bad and uncaring person who doesn't think raping, stealing, and murdering are things that I should be do.
Here we have poor johnny who is in prison probably because he wasn't held enough as a child, had poor social skills, and had no choice but to make a few bad decisions while an adult. Johnny might have known that he would end up in prison for doing things like carjacking, armed robbery, dealing drugs, molesting children, or raping women, but he had no idea that prison could be such a hard unforgiving place. I think we can blame the media for always portraying prison as a summer camp-like setting and making johnny think that prison would be a place where everyone laughs, holds hands, and sings "its a small world." I'll go as far as to blame myself as I spend a great deal of my time working, paying taxes, taking care of my family, and yes, obeying laws instead of spending my time and money teaching the disadvantaged that prison is not a nice place. Maybe I'm just a bad and uncaring person who doesn't think raping, stealing, and murdering are things that I should be do.
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