Blackstone
Member
It's fine, as long as the gun starts in my hand, I'd value my odds there
Probability of Bad Guy Snatching Gun
- Thread starter Tony k
- Start date
- Status
RBid
Member
Statistics for this *can't* represent an individual, unless they are subdivided by behaviors. The biggest determining factors are specific to the carrier.
To have your weapon taken from you *as a concealed carrier*, you almost have to be riding the fail train. To take it while you're wearing it, they have to know THAT you're carrying, they have to know WHERE you're carrying, they have to know grip orientation, and they have to clear your cover and get a secure grip, then move in line with the natural draw path from the holster (rather than pulling at an obstructed angle), AND they have to secure it without you moving in a way that foils the grab. Grabbing it once you've drawn is not easy, unless you stick it out and hang it in place. It's also worth noting that the same base instinct that causes flinch while shooting is very likely to cause a would be attacker to flinch or recoil from a cycling slide (and the associated bang). Again... You almost have to enable the grab.
Retention moves are simple, once trained.
To have your weapon taken from you *as a concealed carrier*, you almost have to be riding the fail train. To take it while you're wearing it, they have to know THAT you're carrying, they have to know WHERE you're carrying, they have to know grip orientation, and they have to clear your cover and get a secure grip, then move in line with the natural draw path from the holster (rather than pulling at an obstructed angle), AND they have to secure it without you moving in a way that foils the grab. Grabbing it once you've drawn is not easy, unless you stick it out and hang it in place. It's also worth noting that the same base instinct that causes flinch while shooting is very likely to cause a would be attacker to flinch or recoil from a cycling slide (and the associated bang). Again... You almost have to enable the grab.
Retention moves are simple, once trained.
Deaf Smith
Member
Tony,
If you go right up to the bad guy in condition white while waving the gun, yea you might get disarmed.
But of you take common sense precautions, no, the bad guy won't get your gun.
Precautions?
1. Be willing to use it if need be (and that means killing.)
2. Keep it concealed until needed.
3. Keep your distance from the BG.
4. Learn some retention skills.
Do those and you will be fine, momma notwithstanding.
Deaf
If you go right up to the bad guy in condition white while waving the gun, yea you might get disarmed.
But of you take common sense precautions, no, the bad guy won't get your gun.
Precautions?
1. Be willing to use it if need be (and that means killing.)
2. Keep it concealed until needed.
3. Keep your distance from the BG.
4. Learn some retention skills.
Do those and you will be fine, momma notwithstanding.
Deaf
Just don't attempt to engage your attacker in some cliche hollywood dialog and you'll be fine. Idle speculation on my part is that what your mother is saying is that she doesn't believe you will actually pull the trigger and that like some lame script the bad guy will walk up and calmly take it out of your hand because her son is too nice to shoot someone.
I rather doubt your mother is referring to retention.
I also would not recommend attempting to convince ones mother that you are capable of killing. No good will come of that.
I rather doubt your mother is referring to retention.
I also would not recommend attempting to convince ones mother that you are capable of killing. No good will come of that.
Deaf Smith
Member
taliv,
How can you say that!
I've watched 'The Last Boyscout' 2 dozen times I a can make them one line zingers while holding the naughty folks at bay!
Deaf
How can you say that!
I've watched 'The Last Boyscout' 2 dozen times I a can make them one line zingers while holding the naughty folks at bay!
Deaf
brownie0486
Member
Probability of Bad Guy Snatching Gun?
Slim and none.
Probability of BG attempting to snatch gun?
Slim and none.
Probability of BG getting shot for his efforts while wrestling for it?
High, using CAR retention skills.
Probability of BG taking it from a holster?
Slim and none.
Probability of BG getting stabbed for trying to take it from the holster?
High
Slim and none.
Probability of BG attempting to snatch gun?
Slim and none.
Probability of BG getting shot for his efforts while wrestling for it?
High, using CAR retention skills.
Probability of BG taking it from a holster?
Slim and none.
Probability of BG getting stabbed for trying to take it from the holster?
High
That's a pretty good assessment, provided that you see the "BG" before he learns that you are armed, decides to take your firearm, surprises you, and renders you incapable of resisting.
Good situational awareness can go a long way toward mitigating that risk, but we all have to stand in line somewhere from time to time, and we often find ourselves walking on crowded sidewalks.
Your only mitigation strategy under those circumstances is to not let it be known that you are armed.
Once you have had to produce your weapon, that strategy is not available to you. You need to keep the "BG" away from you, avoid turning your back on the unknown, and get out of the situation as soon as possible.
Deaf Smith
Member
Kleanbore,
While are am not against Open Carry, still I feel it is wise not to let them know you are armed. The reason is mainly the one you give. Now cops have buddies, two-way radios, bullet proof vest, and a retention holster.
Most of us do not have any of that. Thus concealed is a wise choice (and do learn some retention techniques to, just in case.)
Deaf
pittspilot
Member
http://www.king5.com/news/local/Sur...-from-West-Seattle-bus-robbery-236508751.html
Although this is in reverse, good guy grabbing bad guy's gun, it's instructive.
Although this is in reverse, good guy grabbing bad guy's gun, it's instructive.
I'm going to answer the question only as it relates to a having a drawn gun taken away, not as it relates to having a holstered gun snatched.
I have read a few self-defense scenarios where the good guy snatched the bad guy's gun and used it to defend himself. That's not exactly the question you asked but it does demonstrate that it is possible to take someone's gun away from them.
It's impossible to figure the probability, but it is a possibility that we should understand exists. That understanding should drive us to get training so we can practice properly to minimize the chance of having our self-defense weapons taken away from us.
I have read a few self-defense scenarios where the good guy snatched the bad guy's gun and used it to defend himself. That's not exactly the question you asked but it does demonstrate that it is possible to take someone's gun away from them.
It's impossible to figure the probability, but it is a possibility that we should understand exists. That understanding should drive us to get training so we can practice properly to minimize the chance of having our self-defense weapons taken away from us.
Vincent Price
Member
that's exactly the point. A gun is no substitute for training in hand to hand combat.
no it wouldn't. It is rather easy to steal candy from a baby. That doesn't mean however that it is easy for the baby to take it back from you.
I don't follow. Aren't we talking about adults? Any adult human possesses all the physical attributes needed to beat any other adult human to death. What most lack is the will to get it done, skill is less important.
Criminals don't have any advantage over anyone else, they are built the same. They just know if you want to hurt someone and take something you do it. They don't worry about whether their victims have a gun, or martial arts training, or a rape whistle or retention distance counter-disarm shooting techniques.
If you fight for you life, all-out, with a singular focus on injuring them until they are non-functional via whatever tool is at hand, you are at least on an even level with them.
Of course, some of us aren't equal. That is exactly the point of the cliche, "Colt made men equal."
Whether, say, I was 16, or 60 (now am,) an average male has it over me by a few pounds, about 15-20% in strength, and a few inches in height and reach.
What makes the difference is attitude. The usual pattern is that the perpetrator attempts to blindside or ambush his target to make the odds more likely he can prevail. The weaker person has to exercise more awareness, have effective skills, and be more committed early on in the fight to overcome by whatever means necessary.
That's because we aren't equal, regardless of how much some of us wish we could be. Therefore, someone attempting a disarm would need to be confronted with seriously disabling strikes meant to incapacitate them early on. That doesn't necessarily mean lethal blows as much as ones that have a high degree of interfering with their ability to continue the fight.
Those blows would also interfere with their ability to use the weapon if they did get it.
Thank you, Mr. and Mrs. Taxpayer for hiring the professionals who taught me what those are.
As for the gun banners, they don't have a clue how easy it is for a determined individual to create harm with their bare hands.
What we don't want it to have someone with those skills to use them against us. Unfortunately, the criminal element is getting exposed to them by the same methods we use to communicate and train. They play the same games, lurk in the same forums, and get some of the same training now. It's been a deliberate effort on the part of some gangs and groups to send select individuals into the military to learn the skills they need to use against us.
The good old days of a wayward kid being told by a judge "straighten up or enlist" are gone because of it. They don't get the option to learn how to beat down victims by professionals anymore. The military doesn't need or want troublemakers.
On the other hand, be careful what you ask for. Now life is a lot more about being constantly aware of who might be a threat and how to maintain control and distance over an encounter. It looks less than sociable and impedes friendships. You have to make a conscious decision to even hug someone. It's no longer natural.
All because of a few unthinking bullies in school, who could care less because that's the way they were raised. Which raises the question, who's winning?
Whether, say, I was 16, or 60 (now am,) an average male has it over me by a few pounds, about 15-20% in strength, and a few inches in height and reach.
What makes the difference is attitude. The usual pattern is that the perpetrator attempts to blindside or ambush his target to make the odds more likely he can prevail. The weaker person has to exercise more awareness, have effective skills, and be more committed early on in the fight to overcome by whatever means necessary.
That's because we aren't equal, regardless of how much some of us wish we could be. Therefore, someone attempting a disarm would need to be confronted with seriously disabling strikes meant to incapacitate them early on. That doesn't necessarily mean lethal blows as much as ones that have a high degree of interfering with their ability to continue the fight.
Those blows would also interfere with their ability to use the weapon if they did get it.
Thank you, Mr. and Mrs. Taxpayer for hiring the professionals who taught me what those are.
As for the gun banners, they don't have a clue how easy it is for a determined individual to create harm with their bare hands.
What we don't want it to have someone with those skills to use them against us. Unfortunately, the criminal element is getting exposed to them by the same methods we use to communicate and train. They play the same games, lurk in the same forums, and get some of the same training now. It's been a deliberate effort on the part of some gangs and groups to send select individuals into the military to learn the skills they need to use against us.
The good old days of a wayward kid being told by a judge "straighten up or enlist" are gone because of it. They don't get the option to learn how to beat down victims by professionals anymore. The military doesn't need or want troublemakers.
On the other hand, be careful what you ask for. Now life is a lot more about being constantly aware of who might be a threat and how to maintain control and distance over an encounter. It looks less than sociable and impedes friendships. You have to make a conscious decision to even hug someone. It's no longer natural.
All because of a few unthinking bullies in school, who could care less because that's the way they were raised. Which raises the question, who's winning?
It is easy for most of us to acquire a license to carry a concealed firearm.
What is significantly harder to acquire is the situational awareness of surroundings, the people and other things visible, as well as the ability to accurate analyze the intentions of all that stuff.
Once someone is within reach of you, the likelihood of a successful defense probably plummets to an unacceptable level, no matter your choice of weapon.
Practice may not make perfect, but it sure increases the odds of a good turnout. Keep people away from you, even those with better intentions until you can safely determine their need to be close.
Things are a lot different today.
What is significantly harder to acquire is the situational awareness of surroundings, the people and other things visible, as well as the ability to accurate analyze the intentions of all that stuff.
Once someone is within reach of you, the likelihood of a successful defense probably plummets to an unacceptable level, no matter your choice of weapon.
Practice may not make perfect, but it sure increases the odds of a good turnout. Keep people away from you, even those with better intentions until you can safely determine their need to be close.
Things are a lot different today.
ToraBoraBlues
Member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2010
- Messages
- 82
Krav Maga has some relevant drills on this.
Creating distance then shielding with one arm while you draw and fire with your other arm with a 'from the hip' stance just shooting at your opponent's gut.
If you do martial arts get a plastic training gun and practice. Recommend cutting the finger guard off though if you're gonna get rough.
Creating distance then shielding with one arm while you draw and fire with your other arm with a 'from the hip' stance just shooting at your opponent's gut.
If you do martial arts get a plastic training gun and practice. Recommend cutting the finger guard off though if you're gonna get rough.
HisStigness
Member
I found a video of how that usually goes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9-LOxQXUmU
First of all, mom is a victim.
If I were going to open carry in polite society, I would use a retention holster like a Safariland or Blackhawk.
That said, if you properly conceal, how would the BG know where to grab. I've had times where my cop buddy couldn't tell where my gun was on me, and he knew I was carrying.
If I am forced to use my weapon, it's coming out of it's holster firing. There won't be any chance fir a BG to grab it. My handgun is a weapon of last resort.
If I were going to open carry in polite society, I would use a retention holster like a Safariland or Blackhawk.
That said, if you properly conceal, how would the BG know where to grab. I've had times where my cop buddy couldn't tell where my gun was on me, and he knew I was carrying.
If I am forced to use my weapon, it's coming out of it's holster firing. There won't be any chance fir a BG to grab it. My handgun is a weapon of last resort.
Mike1234567
member
Ha, ha, ha, ha... that one had me laughing.
gamestalker
member
I can think of three primary reasons why our self defense weapon could get used against us.
Carrying OC presents an opportunity to the bad guy. I've actually encountered this situation a few years back in a convenience store.
Second would be either OC or CC-ing, we draw our weapon in a SD situation, we then fail to commit to using it, and then the bad guy removes it from us and uses it against us.
A weapon if left at home, loaded, and visible to bad guy committing a burglary, and then bad guy uses it against the unsuspecting home owner as they enter their home.
GS
Carrying OC presents an opportunity to the bad guy. I've actually encountered this situation a few years back in a convenience store.
Second would be either OC or CC-ing, we draw our weapon in a SD situation, we then fail to commit to using it, and then the bad guy removes it from us and uses it against us.
A weapon if left at home, loaded, and visible to bad guy committing a burglary, and then bad guy uses it against the unsuspecting home owner as they enter their home.
GS
While I agree with your point, I feel obliged to defend my mother and ask that we don't bash my mom (or anyone else's mom). But yes, as others have pointed out, her argument is not that well thought out and it is typical of people who act like victims.
FWIW, my mom was an ER nurse at Denver General Hospital for about 10 years. They called it the "knife and gun club" because of the volume of shootings and stabbings they dealt with (I even used to have t-shirts that said "Denver General Knife and Gun Club"). She hates guns because of her first hand experience with dumb thugs using them on each other. While I think her distain should be pointed at the dumb thugs rather than their tools, I have to respect what she dealt with.
Better yet, just avoid society
. None of us are as dumb as all of us.NavyLCDR
member
I have to address the theory that people who open carry are more likely to have their gun taken away. I feel that it is just as plausible theory that concealed carriers are more likely to have their gun taken by a criminal during an attack than if the gun is openly carried.
Why would a criminal choose to attack the fraction of 1% of the population that they can see has the means to kill them readily available to them? There are much easier, less dangerous, and plentiful ways of obtaining a gun than planning and taking it from the person wearing the gun.
Let's look at the examples of the gun grabs presented so far:
The Minnesota case: gun was taken after it was searched for and found concealed. The concealed gun did nothing to deter the criminal from choosing the victim as a target.
The Washington bus case: the gun was taken when the potential victim was completely surprised by the unexpected sight of the gun. I think it is much more likely that a criminal will attempt to grab the gun when there are surprised by it's presentation than it would be that they would devise a plan ahead of time to take it from a Joe Civilian carrying it.
The LEO cases: completely different motivations and dynamics for a criminal to disarm a LEO than exist for a criminal to plan ahead of time to disarm Joe Civilian.
It is my theory that the KNOWN existence of the gun will cause the majority of criminals to simply choose a different target rather than to execute some plan to take the gun. There are no absolutes, of course. I will play the odds that the criminal, if they see my gun before the attack, will just move on; and if they don't see it, than it is no different than concealed carry. But whether you carry your gun concealed or open, your ability to effectively use the gun greatly increases your chances of surviving or minimizing a criminal attack.
Why would a criminal choose to attack the fraction of 1% of the population that they can see has the means to kill them readily available to them? There are much easier, less dangerous, and plentiful ways of obtaining a gun than planning and taking it from the person wearing the gun.
Let's look at the examples of the gun grabs presented so far:
The Minnesota case: gun was taken after it was searched for and found concealed. The concealed gun did nothing to deter the criminal from choosing the victim as a target.
The Washington bus case: the gun was taken when the potential victim was completely surprised by the unexpected sight of the gun. I think it is much more likely that a criminal will attempt to grab the gun when there are surprised by it's presentation than it would be that they would devise a plan ahead of time to take it from a Joe Civilian carrying it.
The LEO cases: completely different motivations and dynamics for a criminal to disarm a LEO than exist for a criminal to plan ahead of time to disarm Joe Civilian.
It is my theory that the KNOWN existence of the gun will cause the majority of criminals to simply choose a different target rather than to execute some plan to take the gun. There are no absolutes, of course. I will play the odds that the criminal, if they see my gun before the attack, will just move on; and if they don't see it, than it is no different than concealed carry. But whether you carry your gun concealed or open, your ability to effectively use the gun greatly increases your chances of surviving or minimizing a criminal attack.
The flip side of that one is, why would someone who desires to take a gun unlawfully from someone else choose as his victim anyone other than a person he knows to possess one?
Yes, the open carrier has the means to defend himself, but if the objective is in fact a gun grab, he will certainly not be afforded the opportunity.
The lone open carrier is vulnerable to surprise from behind and to being disabled by a blow or an edged weapon. The concealed carrier is of course also vulnerable to having his gun taken, but he will present a target of opportunity only after he has produced the weapon.
Mainsail
Member
The volume of cars and trucks stolen every few minutes far exceeds the number of handguns stolen from their owners while carrying, openly or concealed, in all of the last century. It seems to me that vehicles appear far more desired by criminals than guns. Yet not a day goes by that I don't see someone walking down the street with a set of car keys in their hand or hanging from their belt and not one of them had those keys snatched by a bad guy. Some people even seem to enjoy dropping their BMW or Porsche keys on the counter when they pay for their shopping items. Still, never seen or heard of a key grab.
Anything of which the human mind can conceive is certainly possible; but is it likely?
Last edited:
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
