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Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy

Discussion in 'Air Guns' started by cobalt327, Jul 17, 2016.

  1. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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  2. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Just not working on my end- asks me to log in, but I don't have an account w/warner cable.

    The only BB gun like the RR I know of besides the Cowboy is this one. I asked about it on another forum, maybe 6 months ago IIRC, no one had any real info. FWIW there's also an Annie Oakley version of that same BB gun.
     
  3. flightsimmer

    flightsimmer Member

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    Yes, that's the one I was trying to display.
    They also have a large loop model called the John Wayne.

    Their distributed by Air Venturi through Pyramid Air.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
  4. flightsimmer

    flightsimmer Member

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    Warning! Read the reviews.
     
  5. CCMacLeod

    CCMacLeod Member

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    Hi!
    I'm a newbie here and find this http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/ktw-winchester-m1873-carbine-spring-rifle.html#.WVL_IS5v9J8 like RR.
    I buy a RR here in Brazil and found you searching about custom.
    I have some questions: its possible to use nitro-piston?
    Its possible to change to another caliber? 4.5mm to 6mm pellet?
     
  6. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Hii CC and welcome aboard!

    That's a cool looking gun you linked to. It's airsoft and I do not know much about them.

    The way the power plant of a repeating Daisy BB gun like the Red Ryder is designed, using a nitro-piston would be difficult. A way would be needed to attach an air tube to the front of the piston in order for it to work as a repeater. Maybe making a BB gun that was a single shot like the model 499 might be more practical. But as sure as I say that and someone with skills and imagination beyond my own will make one!

    The biggest problem with using a Daisy BB gun for airsoft would be the small size of the compression chamber. But again- my knowledge of airsoft is very limited. And if I've learned anything while modifying these BB guns, it is that anything is possible!!
     
  7. CCMacLeod

    CCMacLeod Member

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    Thank you só much for answer me!
    As a novice, i will try my best to learn more about all of the knowledge you and others as my seniors write here and other places.
    I will read again all the posts here.
    In Brasil, do tests like yours are dificult because the import taxes and products prices but i will try.
    Sorry for my english.
    I am good to read because i am a Programmer but to write im a disaster hehehehehe.
     
  8. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    I can tell you that your English is a million times better than my Portuguese! Feel free to ask anything here. There are many knowledgeable people who will help.
     
  9. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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    Welcome! I really like the linked gun. I have a soft spot for the lever action guns. I only have one airsoft, so don't know a lot about them.

    Although I am one to attempt many modifications on the daisy guns, I tend to be with cobalt on the difficulty of adapting a nitro piston, or changing caliber.

    Feeding the airsoft "bb's" seems to require a spring action of some nature, which the 1938b platform is not conducive to.

    Cocking a nitro piston would also seem difficult. Not sure how that would work. Though I don't have any of those pieces to study.

    My airsoft is a Maruzen Type 96. The air chamber is much larger the the 1938B. It seems to need lots of air to move the pellet. It has MV around 400-415.

    So....I don't wish to discourage innovation! Let us know what you come up with.
     
  10. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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    IMG_0465.JPG IMG_0466.JPG IMG_0467.JPG IMG_0468.JPG IMG_0469.JPG IMG_0470.JPG Bit of an air tube research update. We have very successfully drilled stock air tubes to 1/8" ID. Started milling the port bigger to test for maximum mv. Then my brother got called away on a consulting job out of state. So... all the parts are locked up in his shop. Hopefully he'll be back so I can get the parts to do some testing! A few pics.
     
  11. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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    I now have qty 2 more 499 barrels in my hands. More research and testing.

    I also ordered 3 RR shot tube assy. 2 of them are seamed. 1 seamless. I even specifically asked them to only send the seamless. I have had a couple of phone conversations with them. They are trying to understand what I am talking about. Will be sending pictures to them this am.

    Also ordered another Aim brand picatinny rail. This one is the 0.31 thick version. It is to spec. I have another idea how to mount it. Stay tuned.

    I'm also waiting on delivery of a Bug Buster scope. Hoping it might help me with a bit of accuracy testing on the 499 hybrid.

    Lots to do.
     
  12. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    The 1/8" ID air tubes look killer! You guys are on a roll!!
     
  13. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Been too long since I visited, so thought I'd stop in and say hello. I hope everyone has been doing well and are still enjoying their Daisys! I've not had time to devote to any Daisy projects but I'm hoping to rectify that, now that things here have calmed down some (house painting inside and out, roofs and gutters on two houses along with other assorted chores getting in the way).

    Found an interesting thread on gas rams. IIRC, this might have been brought up earlier. Anyway, it turns out there are rams that have the OD and stroke length that is compatible with Daisy lever BB guns like our Red Ryders, Bucks, etc. The one I looked at is 19mm OD with a 2" stroke. I'm not sure how the specs for the gas ram energy relates to our springs, but I'll be looking into this in more detail. Just thought it would be neat to build a gas ram RR!
     
    Darkbob likes this.
  14. Chris USA

    Chris USA Member

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    Cobalt, Most interesting. If anyone can figure out how to cram a gas ram into a Daisy, it will be this bunch. I will be keeping an eye on this. Still love the 499 w/ R.R. spring! Chris
     
  15. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    thumbsup.gif thumbsup.gif

    Hinz57 and his brother could pull off the gas ram, I'd bet. Maybe if I send them a ram... mwink.gif
     
  16. cornbelt

    cornbelt Member

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    Just found this. Have not read all 18 pages, but I don't suppose anyone has asked, "Where can you get square cross-section spring stock?" I would love to wind a spring for my old Daisy out of that!
     
  17. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Interested in hearing your results if you do this. Some thoughts that may (or may not :D) be of some use is it's pretty easy to over spring these Daisy lever action BB guns, so I'd say it will be a good idea to sneak up on the final spring rate unless you're going to use a beefed up plunger tube.I've found the factory plunger tube begins to deflect (causing drag on the spring ID) at rates around 22-24 lbs./in. give or take. But hinz57 has found that adjusting the stock configuration spring anchor so that it holds the spring squarely to the plunger adds capacity before deflection becomes an issue. So that spring rate isn't written in stone by any means- but securing the spring squarely IS important by all indications, especially once spring rates climb. The new production plastic trigger 'module' will also begin to strain at higher spring rates. Using a gun w/the earlier style 1-piece stamped steel trigger can give some added leeway.

    Good luck and keep us posted!
     
  18. AJumbo

    AJumbo Member

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    If a BB measures .177, and 1/8" equals .125, what did I miss? Are Hinz and Brother producing sub-bore Red Ryders? I'm not sure I hate the idea.

    Ooops..... OK, I get it now. Air tubes, not barrels. Derp.
     
  19. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Haha! The Daisy IS loaded with 'tubes' of one sort or another; air, shot and plunger tubes- but it's extra easy to mix air tubes and shot tubes!

    I'm a Doxie fan myself. I have to ask, in your avatar is that the start of a canine birthday party?
     
  20. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Today I was shown a trigger that’s new to me for sure! This trigger (and the plastic modular triggers without an anti beartrap rack attached to it) would have to among the shortest runs of any trigger Daisy has used. Scarce, for sure!

    YvWuV7J.jpg


    Does anyone happen to know what on gun(s) this “3-piece steel” trigger was used on? And which type of plunger tube it uses? Two varieties are shown below.

    YOt4qse.jpg


    And I’m happy to say I was briefly in touch with hinz57. He’s likely to be very preoccupied for the foreseeable future but it was real good to hear from him! And do I ever have a ‘neat bit of kit’ (as the Brits say) that he sent me to show everyone! This was just the thing to rekindle my interest in these Daisy lever guns! Photos and details to follow...
     
    LoonWulf likes this.
  21. rick-o-shay

    rick-o-shay Member

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    HAHA my red rider was about the same, I used an 8 inch crescent wrench to adjust windage.
     
  22. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Hey, whatever works, right! lol

    FWIW, in case you missed it I did find that the Daisy rear sight blade for the model 880 works good on the Red Ryder to give windage adjustment, but it takes a bit of drilling to do it. The part number is 169367-K00 SIGHT GROUP, cost is $3.00. Unfortunately, just the windage blade is not sold separately- the part number is for the rear windage blade and screw, rear elevation slider (also fits the RR), and the front sight for the 880. Still reasonable but it would have been nice to get the blades alone.

    I haven’t done it yet but plan to install one of these 880 adjustable rear sight blades on my hopped up model 104. It really needs help- the rear sight on it is totally non-adjustable. The rear sight is like the Buck- it’s just a notched spring anchor.

    Some details of installing this sight blade is HERE.

    RR-1ADJ_WINDAGE.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2017
  23. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    I just picked up a HF combo belt/disc sander. Couldn’t resist when I found that I could use a print ad coupon code online- it brought the delivered cost down to $60. I’m going to use it to make a buttstock or two.

    Here are the air tubes from hinz57. Factory unmodified on far left, incrementally larger until the custom made tube on far right.

    AIRTUBES_H57A.jpg


    Hinz57 reports he’s found that the ID of the air tube should be matched to how much spring preload is being used. More preload needs more tube ID. But just swapping the factory tube for one of the largest tubes won’t give as good of a result in an otherwise stock gun, as would using a tube that’s only been enlarged a smaller amount. I suspected this might be the case but never followed up on actually testing the theory, mainly because I had such a hard time drilling out the darned air tubes w/o snapping drill bits! So I want to see what size tube works best with what amount of preload and document it here- this should be useful info for anyone modifying a Daisy BB gun.

    Another gem hinz57 sent me is a really neat piece of work. At first glance it looks like a preload spacer that has an “oops” where the cutter slipped. In actuality, the cut is a carefully designed correction cut made on the back end of the spacer that allows the main spring to be compressed evenly instead of causing the spring to deflect when it’s compressed. Also seen is how the air tube intake cut has been made through both sides of the tube to help flow.

    SPACER_H57_ABC.jpg

    Look at the cutaway of a cocked Red Ryder below and you can see how the back end of the spring is at an angle (red line) where it contacts the spring anchor. This causes unnecessary friction between the spring and plunger tube, and this becomes even more critical as preload is added.

    RR_cutaway_cocked11.jpg

    This cutaway gun was done by the excellent airgun machinist Grant Stace, more of it can be seen HERE. I recently got a Crosman roller trigger made by him- it’s a work of art and works as good as it looks:

    GSTACE_FRONT.jpg GSTACE_LEFT_FRONT_QRTR.jpg

    GSTACE_RIGHT_FRONT_QRTR.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  24. Tom Austin

    Tom Austin Member

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    Excellent info! I eagerly await results of your trials with the tubes. I'm especially curious how much difference the double sided hole makes. That seems like a long overlooked performance opportunity.

    What Crosman(s) does that beautiful trigger fit?
     
  25. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Hi Tom

    Thanks for the kind words. I've widened the air tube slots before but never tried one that went through both sides so it'll be interesting to see how they do. I suppose I should try just opening up the slot on one without drilling the tube ID to see exactly what happens. It would be a hoot if opening up the slot w/o drilling the ID gave a substantial increase!

    A nice thing about Crosman is they share many parts between models. The trigger fits pumpers like the 1322, 1377, etc. (aka 13xx models) along with CO2 guns like the 2240, 2250, 2260, 2300KT, 2400KT (aka 22xx models).
     

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