Question for the Sheep Dogs

[Odd Job]

An interesting anecdote from the Odd Job files:

One night back in 1998 (well it could have been 1999 I suppose) I was working night shift at a large Johannesburg hospital. There was a big commotion at the casualty entrance and much swearing and some laughing. It turns out that a domestic dispute had gone a bit far and a husband and wife had got themselves injured. Here's what went down:

1) Wife and husband got drunk and wife got slapped around by the husband. Husband then went to bed.
2) Wife got out a large potjie (a large iron pot) and cooked up some porridge oats, the sticky rolled kind with sugar and butter.
3) Wife pulled back the covers on the husband, and poured this scalding hot porridge on him from head to toe, burning him badly.
4) Husband screamed, rolled out of bed, ran out of the room. Wife got in the bed and went to sleep.
5) Husband went to the kitchen, cooked up some oats in the same pot, drew the covers back on the wife, and gave her porridge also.

The two of them came to hospital with serious burns.
But...they were swearing more at the inconvenience of being in hospital than the fact that they had burned one another. As far as they were concerned, the matter was settled. It was one for one and that was all. You could smell the oats all the way in the X-ray department, stuck to their skins.
The woman was so drunk that when the nurses drew a bath for her, she sat on the edge and crapped in the water.

That's one of many 'fine' experiences in a large trauma unit. If those are the ones we are seeing, there must be several times as many that we don't get to see.

 

[SaxonPig]

Unless I actually saw physical harm being done I would never involve myself in a domestic dispute. Ask any cop and he'll tell you this is the most dangerous situation he faces. Also, if you make even a tiny mistake you are WIDE OPEN for civil action.

BTW- Twice I have tried to break up a fight and in both cases I wound up fighting both parties. Nobody seems to appreciate strangers butting in.

 

[simple_rule]

if one of kills the other one, who cares?

 

[Odd Job]

if one of kills the other one, who cares?

I wouldn't go that far....Lone is a doctor and it wouldn't look good if he didn't at least call the cops if things got really out of hand.

 

[rust collector]

I would be afraid that if my presence stopped the verbal abuse, mutual though it may have been, it would have resumed and possibly escalated later on. Different couples have different dynamics we may not understand, but one confrontation is not likely to change much long term. Getting it out of their systems may have been a pressure relief valve.

I'm not sure I know what I would do when confronted by a situation like this or involving physical abuse. As Hippocrates said, first, do no harm. In this instance, I sure would want to find out later why nobody was picking up in the security office. I'd probably get in the car, note a time and plate number, and keep an eye on things until they left.

 

[Mannlicher]

why would anyone care what they do? Remember, no good deed goes unpunished.

 

[TRGRHPY]

Those saying that the woman would have turned on you for interveining are absolutely correct. You would be an outsider who doesn't understand and they would both turn on you. White trash or not, the baby still needs protecting, so calling the police would be about the best thing anyone can do.

The woman was so drunk that when the nurses drew a bath for her, she sat on the edge and crapped in the water.

So did you get her phone number?

 

[jlh26oo]

Depending on your own personal sheep-dogging style, either growl something under your breath like "time to take out the traaash" as you walk over, or just flash your Concealed Weapons Badge and yell "C.C.W.! Stop or I'll shoot!" What would all these sheep ever do without us? Stupid sheep.

 

[qajaq59]

Jumping into the middle of a domestic dispute when you aren't duty bound is one of the stupidest, most foolhardy acts one could possibly do.

It sure is. While you're arguing with him, she'll let you have it with the nearest heavy object.

 

[husbandofaromanian]

HELLO, reality check. There's a child here. There so much concern for a woman to be abused (physically, verbally, emotionally, spiritually, or anything else we can dream up). The fact is, if he touches her he goes to jail. She can physically harm him in a serious way and get away with it by playing the victim. Then she can divorce him and take him to the cleaners.

But the child? Now here is a victim. 911 should have been called for him to possibly get him into protective services.

 

[KansasMustang]

Even LEO's say the worst case scenario is a Domestic Dispute. I'd have called the police and watched in case it went south

 

[Cyborg]

A Security Officer's Perspective

I am Security Officer licensed to work armed. I have had training in this sort of incident. I also consider my self a sheepdog - at least in the sense that I am willing to use force but unlike a "wolf" I don't consider sheeple prey (remember, biologically wolves and dogs are a single species since a cross between them produces viable fertile offspring).

If I had been working security at that post and you had called me, I would have approached the scene and observed for a moment from a safe distance - at least 10 yards/meters. If my presence - the first level of force - failed to calm things down (you 'd be surprised how often a guy in a uniform with a badge and carrying a sidearm calms things down) I would then say in a command voice "Excuse me!" or some such. I would repeat theat and add things like "Hey!" or "Yo!" or other attention getting words or even blowing my whistle until I finally got their attention. Having done that I would - firmly but respectfully - instruct them to leave the premesis - that being most property owners' instructions in case of an altercation. If they failed to leave as instructed, I would call 911 and ask for PD for help for a Criminal Trespass problem. I at that point would begin taking notes for my incident report.

AT NO TIME, absent evidence of a weapon, would I approach them at closer than 10 meters. Nor would I intervene any further. There was nothing in the OP's scenario that justified any higher level of force than voice. The minor would not have been my responsibility. If a weapon was produced, I would draw down immediately and advance to approx. 7 meters and instruct the wielder to put "Put the weapon DOWN!" Unless the weapon wielder did something that I believed put either the other adult or the minor at risk I would not have discharged the weapon. When PD arrived I would have explained the situation and let the TCLEOSE Licensed Peace Officers earn their (all too meager) pay.

Unless there was imminent danger of life and limb, I would not physically intervene in any domestic dispute. The two most dangerous tasks a LEO performs are "routine" traffic stops and domestic disputes. As a private citizen I have even LESS legal - or even moral - duty to intervene in an altercation such as this than a LEO. When I am on the job my duty is to the property owner. Also, it should not matter whether the couple looked "trashy" or they were dressed in Armani and standing next to a Benz. Rich people commit domestic assault, too.

 

[XTerminator]

I can't help wonder what Gecko45 would have done in this situation. Sounds like it would have been right up his alley.

 

[ZombieHunter]

lol @ sheep dog.

 

[Highland Ranger]

sheepdogs are not responsible for suicidal sheep

 

[Joe Demko]

Back to a world of killers, rapists, psychos, perverts.
A brand new evil every minute, spewed out as fast as men can think them up.
A world where pitching a criminal dwarf off a skyscraper to tell his fellow scum you're back is a sane and rational act.
The angels thought it would be Hell for me.
They were wrong...

 

[shaka]

I agree with Jeff White

Jeff White writes:

Jumping into the middle of a domestic dispute when you aren't duty bound is one of the stupidest, most foolhardy acts one could possibly do.

Domestic situations are very dangerous and it's not at all uncommon to have the "victim" you are trying to help turn on you and side with the aggressor, then you have both of them to fight.

Your "duty" as a "sheepdog" is nothing more then calling 911 and letting the professionals deal with the situation.

I really wish LTC Grossman's essay would have stayed where it as intended, in military and police circles. Public fear of wannabe "sheepdogs" running around involving themselves in situations they haven't the training or experience to handle is one of the big things those of us in the states where we don't yet have CCW are trying to overcome.

I fully agree.

And I'm glad to see that everybody else who has replied to this thread is also mostly in agreement. There is no such thing as a "sheepdog." (Apologies to actual sheep dogs, such as the one in the photo above.)

Short of squeezing the trigger of a gun in your waistband before actually pulling it out of your pants, there few stupider things you can do with a pistol than to inject yourself between a husband and wife who are arguing.

Incidentally, I started a poll at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=412968 on what I thought was an equally obvious self-defense issue. We the Armed, where this post was originally posted, banned me for saying that it is wrong to shoot unarmed men. So I re-printed the post with a poll here at The High Road. I would be interested in hearing what you guys think.

Postscript:

Jeff White- I'm not sure what essay by LTC Grossman you are refering to, but I have read quite extensively in Grossman's writings and would be interested in the link to this paper.

 

[DarkSoldier]

What a great thread. Serious question on a serious subject. Not only did we get some really well thought out posts, but to spice them up we also get Coffee, Donuts, gun related Hiaku, suggestions for cool background music, and even inspirational quotes to keep our spirits up as we go back out into the fray. Gee, does it get any better than this, or did I miss something?

Cyborg, among the hilarity of the last few posts I was lucky enough to find your extremely well thought out analysis of how you would have handled the situation in your role as a security officer. I certainly can't argue with you calling yourself a sheepdog based on your job. While there might be some areas where I'd have used different tactics, I was very impressed with your reasoned approach to the problem and your clear understanding of responsibility and mission as it relates to your employment.

Ever consider shipping over to the LEO side? From what I read in your post, you'd transition well. If you are as tightly wrapped in all the other areas as your post would suggest, we'd be lucky to have you.

Respectfully,

DarkSoldier

 

[george29]

So sheep dogs, what would you have done?

Wet all 4 of his tires and then dare him to wet them over mine. If he did, I would re-wet his tires and then growl at him.

 

[hankdatank1362]

Joe, what was that from? It looks so familiar...

 

[HexHead]

I don't get the whole "sheepdog" thing in the first place. To quote our "Dear Leader", it's above my pay grade.

 

[LightningJoe]

I've been in a similar situation. I'm not saying I did the right thing (and I didn't carry a gun back then), but I just stood not far away and watched. The man started threatening to attack me (for watching). He was clearly about to attack me so I removed my glasses and placed them on the roof of a nearby car. When his wife saw this she intuited that I would stand and fight so she shouted at me to leave them alone. At which point, I concluded she did not want help, put my glasses back on, and kept walking.

 

[Joe Demko]

Joe, what was that from? It looks so familiar...

It's a quote from a Punisher comic book.

 

[Wheeler44]

The paid sheep dogs would show up afterwards, take notes and file reports.

The unpaid (short bus) sheep dogs would jump in and have their @sses handed to them. (Either on the spot or later in court)

The big doofy mutt would watch for a while (high entertainment value and big insight into human interactions, especially for those that don't get exposed to "different" folks much) then gone looking for a hydrant to pee on or a garbage can to knock over.

Your mileage may vary

Wheeler44

 

[DarkSoldier]

Wheeler 44,

Just thought I'd take a break from doing nothing but showing up afterwards, taking notes, and filing reports to respond to your post.

I have no reason to doubt that you are a competent and capable person and are smart enough, well trained enough, well armed enough, and brave enough to take care of your loved ones in any situation where human intervention could make a difference. I mean that sincerely.

But having said that, let me remind you that life often puts our loved ones into harms way when we are far away from them and unable to do anything to help them. After all this Sturm & Drang about labels, and analogies, and who should or should not be a sheepdog is said and done, that one fact remains indisputable.

Therefore, I would offer you this thought. If life ever (God forbid) puts those you love in jeopardy beyond their own abilities, and you cannot be there to handle it, I hope "the short bus" happens by and one of those unpaid sheepdogs you so cheerfully disrespected is willing to put his/her own safety and self interest aside long enough to do whatever it takes to help them. Hopefully, all the "big doofy mutts" standing around watching and being entertained and getting insight into human interaction will at least have the decency to stay out of the way.

As to your disrespect of me and mine (LEOs), I won't dignify it with a response. I've already heard it all.

And my mileage? Over the road I choose to travel...it never varies. It's always expensive. But, thanks for asking.

Respectfully,

DarkSoldier