Question for the Sheep Dogs

[Wheeler44]

Ooooooh.. I musta touched a nerve there 'Soldier. Sorry..

I'm not puttin' down your chosen job or the folks that do it so much, as commenting on the fact that you and your brothers and sisters in blue will probably show up after the action.... I mean, you're only human..

What I'm gettin' at and what fills me with mirth is the whole Sheep, sheepdog and wolf BS. I just received that beauty in my email,........ again.

What a bunch of self serving, self satisfying crap.

Assuming that the masses are "sheep" in need of protection is flawed in so many ways that it makes my head hurt to even think about it. How did
humanity survive without the thin blue line to keep us poor sheep safe.... oh my...

Assuming that Cops and soldiers are some sort of valiant guardians of society also has its issues, but I'm sure some folks think that they're accomplishing just that. When those same folks agree to do the job (and that's what it really is) for room and board then I'll buy into the sheepdog thing. After they police their ranks of the wolves in sheepdog clothing.

While I will agree that there are predators out there, depending on the Law enforcement officials to keep us safe from them is hopeful at best, incredibly stupid at worse.

Finally, our justice system as it exists in most places is just a series of compromises flying in close formation.

I ask that you, just for a minute, think of society as a bunch of humans with gifts and talents, strengths and weaknesses, just like you and your brothers and sisters in blue. Some of those folks have shooting skills to put you to shame, sorry that's true.
Some have physical strength and skill enough to crush you too, also true. Some are so adept at "situational awareness" that they will see the little things that make this scenario different from all other scenarios and be ready to be a good witness or whatever else that they think would be helpful.

Not all of us that have a different job than you are sheep. Not all that have the same job as you are sheepdogs. Life is rarely that black and white.

Wheeler44

 

[DarkSoldier]

Wheeler 44,

Undeserved disrespect will always strike a nerve with me, so in that regard you are correct. Beyond that, you are, in the words of our lawyer friends, making assumptions based on facts not in evidence.

Unfortunately for the safety and well being of my brothers and sisters in blue, we often show up right in the middle of the action, just in time to put our lives on the line. (Average Response time in my jurisdiction last time I checked was 90 seconds from first call to cruiser marking out on scene.) I've got the scars and dead friends to show for it.

If you'll check out a few of my previous posts you can see that I don't consider people who are not in my line of work as sheep. I'm not even ready to say that all of them even need our protection, (but most posters seem to think it probably saves a lot of wear and tear on the lawyer fees & medical bill budget to let us do the heavy lifting whenever possible.) In my career, I have never had a legally armed citizen who caused me a problem of any kind. In my own opinion, if anything, they lighten my load.

As to depending on LEOs to keep us safe, I never recommend that. What I said in response to your post was that it would seem prudent for you, or me, or anyone else who had loved ones out there (that we might not be able to be with 24/7) to hope that if they were in need and there was no LEO around, that some well meaning person who considers himself/herself a sheepdog, would be willing to help them.

Now, based on one of your statements in your last post, I'm going to follow your lead and make an assumption in the absence of facts. Based on your statement that being a cop or a soldier is just a job we perform to obtain room and board, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you sound as if you have never been either one. When we become cops, we don't just shake hands with the boss, sign w-4 forms and go punch the clock. We swear an oath on our sacred honor that binds us to a duty that transcends our obligation to self. If we were doing it for money, the price would be considerably higher.

As to policing our own ranks, I've established my bonafides there as well. I've disciplined bad cops, fired bad cops, arrested and prosecuted bad cops, and fought bad cops. I had a lot of help. The good news for me (and for the public) is that it wasn't that big a job since there just aren't that many bad ones in the ranks.

As for the justice system, I can't argue with you. it needs work. But that's the civilian side of things, lawyers, judges, juries.

As for your suggestion that I "just for a minute, think of society as a bunch of humans with gifts and talents, strengths and weaknesses, just like you and your brothers and sisters in blue..." I'm way ahead of you on that one. (I'm not the one who made the "short bus" comment, remember?)

As to respecting the fact that there are some civilians who can out shoot the average cop...sorry ahead of you there too. I used to bring in members of the local Civilian Combat Shooters clubs to train my special ops people because I couldn't find any LE guys that could bring that kind of training to the table. Civilian physical skills? I never disrespect them. Where do you think we got the scars? But, you don't know me so I'm sure I can't blame you for making incorrect assumptions.

I don't consider the public as sheep or as helpless. But, neither do I disrespect those well meaning members of the public (regardless of what term they use to describe themselves) who feel a need or obligation to help their fellows. Apparently you do, and that is where we disconnect.

Respectfully,

DarkSoldier

 

[Doug S]

Dark Soldier,

I appreciate your comments very much. After reading some of the hyperbole in this thread, your comments were refreshing.

Wheeler,

Assuming that Cops and soldiers are some sort of valiant guardians of society also has its issues

Agreed, although I don't think Dark Soldier was insinuating anything of the sort. Some others obviously are though, and although I greatly value the service of our soldiers/police, I think the comments expressing the above are baloney. Our nation was founded on the premise of the individual, not organized police forces, or standing armies, and this founding philosophy (IMO) most likely accounts for much of the country's greatness both militarily, and in the fact that we have a police force oriented toward public service, not a Gestapo serving a government ideology.

The purpose of this thread seemed to be nothing more than keeping the already exaggerated, and one-sided "Sheepdog" discussion/silliness going. Funny how it (for the most part) has turned into a 3 page thread of mostly the same people talking to themselves. Evidently we've got some bored fellows, most of the so called "Sheepdogs" must have better things to do. For those looking for any possible way to advertise their associations while at the same time barring all others from aspiring to, partaking of, or in anyway commenting on such associations, this thread's for you.

So that leaves me with only one question, if blatant "Sheepdog-aphobia" doesn't warrant closing a thread, if I mention the contents of my survival pack, will it get this thread closed? I have a flashlight, a blanket, some paracord... Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Wheeler44]

No disrespect for anyone that altruistically stands in defense of our nation or its citizens.

Much disrespect for anyone that categorizes people into one of the three categories mentioned in my previous posts.

Much more disrespect for those internet commandos that are are just one brick shy of gecko45 and his ilk.

To the OP; since you didn't know what to do and couldn't wait around for the outcome you did the right thing...there is a fifty fifty chance that you would have done the wrong thing. Anybody that encourages you act without understanding is irresponsible.

Assuming that Cops and soldiers are some sort of valiant guardians of society also has its issues

I agree here also, although I don't think Dark Soldier was insinuating any such thing. Some of the others obviously are though, and although I greatly value the service of our soldiers/police, I think the comments expressing the above are hogwash. Our nation was founded on the individual, not organized police forces, or standing armies. I'd even go as far as saying that the premise of the individual citizen having the ability to contribute to the country's destiny, probably accounts for much of our nation's success,

I couldn't agree more.

I don't particularly like the term "sheepdog", but evidently they've been around for quite some time.

I don't like the term nor the mentality that evolves from such thinking.

Sheepdogs exist not so much to protect the flock (there are other breeds more suitable for this duty)but to herd it at the whim of the sheepdogs master, oftentimes herding the flock to their death.

This country was founded by farmers, craftsmen, doctors, mechanics and shopkeepers, with some writers/publishers and lawyers thrown in the mix. In other words a bunch of big doofy mutts..... that was our strength then and it is our strength now. Most big doofy mutts don't need a sheepdog to herd them, in fact they find the yapping of the self proclaimed sheepdogs annoying.

Wheeler44

 

[Doug S]

In other words a bunch of big doofy mutts..... that was our strength then and it is our strength now. Most big doofy mutts don't need a sheepdog to herd them, in fact they find the yapping of the self proclaimed sheepdogs annoying.

Agreed, but such independence of mind might make you a "Sheepdog", whether you like the breed selected by the author for the analogy or not. Besides, aren't there other herding dogs, such as the German Shepherd, Belgian Sheepdog, Belgian Malinois that have much more "presence", in the field and in the home. Also isn't the GS dog, according to the AKC, listed as the worlds leading police, military, and guard dog. I think they've herded a few sheep along the way. Now that I think about it, isn't there a dog show this weekend...you know I have a Norwegian Elkhound...if I had it to do over again I'd get the German Shepherd...my Elkhound is a pretty fair watchdog, but I'd prefer a dog with a little more Hutzpa to protect me since I don't have any EMTs, Marines, or small town police guy types living in the immediate vicinity to save my bacon...speaking of hutzpa have you noticed the Israeli stance on the Iranians building nuclear weapons...just waiting on the mighty, thread closing gavel, of Jeff White to come slamming down...

Me, I'm just a dumb mutt who prefers to be left alone, but who every now an then (just when I thought I'd given them up for good), gets caught up in another chest thumping thread. Alright, I've had my fun, so I'll sign off now

 

[DarkSoldier]

Wheeler,

I appreciate your thoughts even though I might not agree.

Doug S. Thanks for the thoughts.

If the "last guy who posts" wins the argument, I'll bow to you, Wheeler. I've said my piece. I'm done here.

Respectfully,

DarkSoldier

 

[XTerminator]

I see Oprah is having a show today about just the sort of thing mentioned in the original post.
Could be interesting.........or just the usual fluff.

Steve

 

[LightningJoe]

It's a quote from a Punisher comic book.

No, it's from the parking lot behind my mother's apartment.


PS. If you're old enough to own a gun, you're too old for comic books. Just my opinion.

 

[Cyborg]

Sheepdogs Vs Wolves

George Orwell wrote:

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

I am one of those "rough men". I raised my right hand and swore to defend the constitution against all enemies. For 10 years I did my best do do my part to defend our nation. These days I babysit parking lots and construction sites while wearing a sidearm 8-12 hours at a time.

I see the whole "sheepdog vs wolves" thing as being a valid analogy. Like any analogy it breaks down after a while but that does not deminish its validity. Here is my take on the whole "sheepdogs vs wolves" thing.

Dogs and wolves are both carnivores. Biologically they are a single species since a wolf/dog cross produces viable, fertile offspring. Their major difference is in outlook. Wolves consider anything that they can eat to be prey. Dogs consider livestock and certain other creatures and charges to be protected.

There are predators in our society. They look at the people around them and have no trouble doing whatever they wish to fulfill their own desires. If it means taking a baseball bat to a former girlfriend and her family then they will do it. If getting what they want means beating an 84 year old woman half to death, stuffing her into the trunk of her own car and then setting her on fire while still breathing, they will do so. Those are the "wolves".

I do not believe that most people are capable of using deadly force - even in the defense of their own lives and/or the lives of their loved ones - absent some truly shattering circumstances. They are the "sheep".

But there a few of us who are capable and prepared to use deadly force when it is called for but who still do not see our fellow citizens as prey. We feel the call to become Law Enforcement Officers or we enlist in the armed forces or we serve in other ways. We are the "sheepdogs". We are the men - AND WOMEN - who stand ready in the to do violence in behalf of our fellows that those same fellows can sleep peacefully in their beds. WE serve because we feel a need to do so.

Make fun of us as you will, we will still serve. We will serve in the Sandbox, or the Rockpile or in a squadcar or wherever. We do not do it because we seek your approval. We do it because it is what we do. A wise man would be glad that there ARE such people around.

Cyborg

 

[rbernie]

I am one of those "rough men". I raised my right hand and swore to defend the constitution against all enemies. For 10 years I did my best do do my part to defend our nation.

So did a whole bunch of us. Don't make us special - just makes us veterans. Unless you raised your hand in a time of war and willingly went to a Known Bad Place - you are just like me and millions of other service members who enjoyed three hots and a cot in exchange for some amount of indentured servitude performing largely menial labor.

We are the "sheepdogs". We are the men - AND WOMEN - who stand ready in the to do violence in behalf of our fellows that those same fellows can sleep peacefully in their beds. WE serve because we feel a need to do so.

Would you still do it if you didn't get paid to do it?

Frankly, I'm ok with the whole sheepdog analogy to a point, but I can clearly see how it becomes a label that some folks apply to themselves to make themselves somehow *different* and vaguely superior to others.

I get it. We're the sheep and you're the benevolent sheepdog. The only reason that I can sleep peacefully at night is because of your sacrifice. Blah blah blah.

Well, I have a newsflash for all you self-described Internet sheepdogs. You have saved me from nothin'. Your intentions and actions have impacted my ability to sleep not one bit. There is no noble sacrifice in what you do; you work for a paycheck just like the rest of us. If you did not get paid to do what you do, chances are you would not do it.

Freakin' spare me the self-aggrandizing bullscat. More to the point, I suggest that you think twice about tarnishing the good name and reputation of those that truly sacrifice themselves for the greater good by dragging their actions down to the level in which your job as an armed babysitter is corrolary.

 

[longbeard48]

"I see Oprah is having a show today about just the sort of thing mentioned in the original post.
Could be interesting.........or just the usual fluff. "

Who is Oprah?

 

[Joe Demko]

PS. If you're old enough to own a gun, you're too old for comic books. Just my opinion.

Thanks for sharing your opinion on that matter, though I don't recall asking you for it.

 

[Joe Demko]

WRT this whole "sheepdog" analogy:
If you chose to simply describe yourself as a person who cares about the welfare of his fellow man, I seriously doubt that there is anybody who'd say boo to you about that. I daresay most people would find such an attitude commendable. Where describing yourself as a sheepdog rubs a lot of people the wrong way (including me) is in its overtones of you describing yourself as a better class of person. The poor, timid sheep (i.e. average people) are defenseless without you. The evil wolves (i.e. criminals) would do well to fear you in all your sheepdog might and glory.
That is exactly where the accusations of self-aggrandizing by CCW holders comes from.
Call yourself a concerned citizen.
Call yourself a humanitarian.
Call yourself a good Samaritan.
Any of these perfectly adequately express that you care about others, even total strangers, enough to intervene on their behalf without making you sound like a jack-ass.

 

[Joe Demko]

George Orwell wrote:

So what if he did? Being able to dredge up a quote from somebody famous that is marginally applicable to the debate doesn't mean a thing.

 

[px4storm]

Jeff White:

I really wish LTC Grossman's essay would have stayed where it as intended, in military and police circles. Public fear of wannabe "sheepdogs" running around involving themselves in situations they haven't the training or experience to handle is one of the big things those of us in the states where we don't yet have CCW are trying to overcome.

I'm not sure LTC Grossman intended his books to only be ready by LEO and Military but I could be wrong. If that is what he intended, then perhaps he should stop giving lectures to us civililians.

I don't know if I just misunderstood his books, which is possible, but I didn't understand his point to be that we should go around and get involved in situations we are not prepared for. My understanding was just the opposite, which is be prepared and to know the seriousness and consequences of your actions.

If the people in Illinois are worried about people running around half-cocked and that is the reason your state will not pass CCW laws, then perhaps they should research the other 48 states that do allow CCW and see that just does not happen instead of being influenced by uninformed views. I always understood that there are other reasons why Illinois does not allow CCW. I didn't know it was because they were afraid of sheep dogs.

In response to the OP,
I would have just called 911 and waited for the Police to arrive. The situation would dictate my response since there was a woman and child involved. If the situation had escalated, I don't believe it would be good citenship to stand by and watch a woman and child get beaten . At that point, I probably would have yelled at him and tried to distract him long enough for the police to arrive. I'm no hero but at the same time I have a conscience.

Finally, and most importantly, to Dark Soldier,

I hope if I am ever in need of a Police Officer, the one who comes to my aid is just like you! I can tell from your well reasoned and measured response that you have the heart of a great "cop".

 

[Jeff White]

I'm not sure LTC Grossman intended his books to only be ready by LEO and Military but I could be wrong. If that is what he intended, then perhaps he should stop giving lectures to us civililians.

The presentation it came from "The Bullet Proof Mind" was a closed presentation, not intended for the public.

I don't know if I just misunderstood his books, which is possible, but I didn't understand his point to be that we should go around and get involved in situations we are not prepared for. My understanding was just the opposite, which is be prepared and to know the seriousness and consequences of your actions.

You obviously haven't seen or heard the Bullet Proof Mind seminar that the analogy came from. The entire essay is directed at professionals, those with a duty to go into harms way. Not private citizens. Not CCW holders.

If the people in Illinois are worried about people running around half-cocked and that is the reason your state will not pass CCW laws, then perhaps they should research the other 48 states that do allow CCW and see that just does not happen instead of being influenced by uninformed views. I always understood that there are other reasons why Illinois does not allow CCW. I didn't know it was because they were afraid of sheep dogs.

If you read the internet postings of the CCW community, here and on any other firearms forum, you'll find that a significant number of people who choose to carry a gun, think that a CCW permit makes them some kind of guardian of society. We have discussions here all the time where members feel they have some kind of duty to intervene in situations they are neither prepared nor trained to handle just because they are armed.

Fear of untrained people intervening in situations they have no business messing with has been one of battles that have been fought in every state where CCW was passed. BY and large this isn't a problem. However, if the normal person were to read the internet postings of the "gun culture", they would get a totally different attitude then what reality seems to bear out.

If one were to base their opinion of the average CCW holder on what's posted on the internet, you certainly wouldn't get the picture of a reasonable, prudent person who is concerned about his safety and that of his family.

It really doesn't matter that most of it is meaningless chest thumping and blowing off steam. The average person who is not a member of the gun culture is going to take what's posted here and at places where the rules of civility are lax or non-existent seriously.

Anyone who is not a soldier or peace officer who thinks that he is benefiting society by carrying a gun needs to re-examine his motives for carrying a gun before he gets himself in trouble and starts reversing the gains that have been made.

 

[Cyborg]

Didn't Even Ruffle Your Hair As It Went Over

rbernie, Joe Demko, you take me wrong. I do not consider myself superior. Different but not superior. What I do not understand is the level of vitriol in your posts. I carry primarily to protect my family. I keep my Uzi Eagle beside my bed for the same reason. That doesn't make me superior. I certainly never said I consider myself in any way superior. So whence comes the vitriol? If you are going to be wroth with me, at least be wroth with me over something I ACTUALLY SAID and not something you READ INTO my post.

Demko, why do you care how someone describes themselves? Are you saying that someone applying the appelation "sheepdog" to themselves in some manner injures or diminishes you? You do not wish to apply the appelation "sheepdog" to yourself? Fine. It is certainly your right not to do so. But why are you so vehemently against someone ELSE applying that appplation to themselves? I say again, in what way does it injure or diminish you?

For the record, I was attempting to inject a bit of logic and reason here. And as for the Orwell quote, is there something inherently wrong or dishonest about quoting one of the 20th century's better writers and political philosopher's work? I happen to think Mr. Orwell was spot on. I think it is "rough men" who make it possible for those who would take away or seriously curtail the RKBA to have to freedom to espouse their noxious philosophy.

Now will you both accord me the freedom to describe myself as I see fit? Or must I conform to YOUR notions of "the way things ought to be"? Of course if you DO demand I conform to YOUR worldview then we have a problem. In fact we may have a problem that can only be resolved at 10 paces.

Cyborg

 

[Wheeler44]

Now will you both accord me the freedom to describe myself as I see fit? Or must I conform to YOUR notions of "the way things ought to be"? Of course if you DO demand I conform to YOUR worldview then we have a problem. In fact we may have a problem that can only be resolved at 10 paces.

Cyborg

I figure that you just described yerself better'n anyone else could have.......got any trauma plates to duct tape to your back?

 

[jlh26oo]

That doesn't make me superior. I certainly never said I consider myself in any way superior.

I won't speak for anyone else, but I did get the impression they were referring not so much to that explicit statement as much as the tone of someone claiming their service the reason others sleep easy, much less when that service is a construction site security post.

And in fleshing out the analogy of wolves, sheep, and sheepdogs- you defined the latter two by splitting everyone up between those who are incapable of using deadly force vs. those are are capable AND serve because they feel the need to do so (I.E. being capable of using deadly force and feeling the need to serve you presented as mutually exclusive categories, which I KNOW is one stance the majority of members here would take issue with). Also, I think someone was essentially calling B.S. on your claim that "WE serve because we feel a need to do so", in that if you were not being payed for it- would you still man that parking lot & construction site every night (just for the satisfaction of knowing the sheep can sleep well)? I.D.K. if you addressed this or not.

But in double checking, just an F.Y.I.- because this might be pure coincidence that you are a security guard, but making statements like the following will get you outted as a "gecko" on the internet gun-boards, but that's J.M.O. and Y.M.M.V.:

In fact we may have a problem that can only be resolved at 10 paces.

 

[Cyborg]

in that if you were not being payed for it- would you still man that parking lot & construction site every night

FYI Most of the time I babysit parking lots it is unarmed. BUT now I realize your conceptual/knowledge error. You are assuming that there is a significant financial advantage to working security armed versus unarmed. Thus the only reason I work armed is for the money.

While I cannot speak for other areas, around here there is little financial advantage to working armed. I work security because it is an easy way to earn my pay. I work armed because I choose to do so. I have a lot of coworkers who do not work armed - WILL not do so. Hate the thought of carrying.

The problem you have is ascribing your own motivations to me. Also you are essentially saying I am bragging. Not so. Merely describing the situation as I see/experience it.

I am not entirely sure what you mean by "gecko". But you completely sidestepped MY questions. To wit:

whence comes the vitriol?

why are you so vehemently against someone ELSE applying that appelation to themselves? I say again, in what way does it injure or diminish you?

Now will you both accord me the freedom to describe myself as I see fit? Or must I conform to YOUR notions of "the way things ought to be"?

 

[Kleanbore]

From Jeff White:

If you read the internet postings of the CCW community, here and on any other firearms forum, you'll find that a significant number of people who choose to carry a gun, think that a CCW permit makes them some kind of guardian of society. We have discussions here all the time where members feel they have some kind of duty to intervene in situations they are neither prepared nor trained to handle just because they are armed.

Fear of untrained people intervening in situations they have no business messing with has been one of battles that have been fought in every state where CCW was passed. BY and large this isn't a problem. However, if the normal person were to read the internet postings of the "gun culture", they would get a totally different attitude then what reality seems to bear out.

If one were to base their opinion of the average CCW holder on what's posted on the internet, you certainly wouldn't get the picture of a reasonable, prudent person who is concerned about his safety and that of his family.

It really doesn't matter that most of it is meaningless chest thumping and blowing off steam. The average person who is not a member of the gun culture is going to take what's posted here and at places where the rules of civility are lax or non-existent seriously.

Anyone who is not a soldier or peace officer who thinks that he is benefiting society by carrying a gun needs to re-examine his motives for carrying a gun before he gets himself in trouble and starts reversing the gains that have been made.

Very well put.

 

[Steve Raacke]

A Hospital Security Officers Perspective

Say it happend in one of the parking lots/garages at one of the 2 hospitals where I work as a Security Officer.
As you already mentioned in the OP, the hospital is a gun free zone. So you call Security. Guess what. I'm unarmed too. You know what I'm gonna do? About the same as Cyborg. Stay at a safe distance, get their attention and shout to them, "Take that somewhere else." They can then get in their rust bucket junker and head home to the trailer park or they can continue to yell and curse each other. If they stick around I radio my dispatcher in the security office and have the police respond to handle things. There is little more that I or my fellow unarmed hospital security officers can do for a domestic dispute in a parking area.

 

[jackstinson]

Anyone who is not a soldier or peace officer who thinks that he is benefiting society by carrying a gun needs to re-examine his motives for carrying a gun before he gets himself in trouble

Thank you! This is one of the basic things taught in CCW class. My CHL isn't to protect America, it's for me and mine. However, due to this thread, I now feel so much safer when walking near construction sites.
BTW: The terms "sheeple", "sheepdogs", and such....are just plain goofy.

 

[px4storm]

What I have learned:

From now on, on The High Road forum, I will never enter into a "discussion" when the title has anything to do with the "sheepdog". This thread has been the most distressing that I have read on this forum. I just don't get the extreme anger in some posts and thankfully, it is not the norm for THR.

I am a member of 5 different forums where people with CCW permits post and this is the only one where I've seen this level of anger about this subject. I completely agree that I am not an LEO and it is not my job to keep society safe. I think my previous post bears that out. Whether I had my CHL or not, I would not stand by while an innocent person was being beaten with the excuse that I called the police and that was the end of my duty as a citizen. If someone is in distress in any way, it is my nature to want to help (Not in the role as an LEO but as a Good Samaritan). I cannot turn my back on someone in need. If that makes me an unreasonable or imprudent person, in the eyes of "anti-ccw" people, then so be it. I do not agree.

I never said that I attended one of Grossman's seminars, I only said that they shouldn't be public if not intended for civilians. The Bullet Proof Mind was offered in Ohio for the general public and although I wanted to go I was unable due to work. Here is the link:
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/5437

We have obviously had different experiences on gun forums and I respect your opinion on the matter even if I disagree. I guess I am naive because I thought the OP was asking a question so he could learn what others thought he should have done. Perhaps on this forum, people are not trying to learn but only post to start an argument . . . if that is the case, I am sorry that I got involved. On the other forums I am a member of, we post questions to learn from each other and not have venom spewed at us. As you can see, I am rather new to this forum and I didn't realize there was a war going on between two different factions.

I'm sure the anti-gun people would love to read these threads because it makes them feel stronger that there is this level of division among gun owners. It makes it seem like we eat our own. A divided enemy is always better to fight than a unified one.

I hope your state gets a CCW law passed soon and I hope nothing I have said aids the anti-gun establishment to prevent that from happening. I believe that as U.S. citizens, we all have the right to carry and for those of us who choose to do so, that we do it responsibly. Happily, that has been my experience.

 

[jackstinson]

I realized that I failed to address the OP: Unless someone is actually getting beaten, I'd mind my own business.
From what was written, it's very probable that this couple fight this way often....many people do. The wife was not cowering for her life, she was cussing right back at the husband. And as was posted many times already; getting involved directly in such a situation will normally end up with you on the short end of the stick. With both of them turning on you for interfering with their business. After all, it really is their business.
Now I'll know to call the security person who is sheepdogging that parking lot.

The man was wanting the woman to get in the car, and apparently she was not moving fast enough to suit him, so he started yelling at her. This didnt speed her up to his satisfaction so he started cussing badly, and beating physically on the car. She started cussing him back. They were yelling loudly. It really looked like it could degenerate into a physical altercation. The cussing match then continued for another couple of minutes. She never got in the car. He said something to the effect of " I ought to beat your ass" but never assaulted her.