Read This, All Fellow Gun Users

[Guy B. Meredith]

Why so many comments on firearms not meant to kill? Because the other side already has the litany on guns and bullets designed to kill and it needs the counterbalance.

The many millions of rounds loaded with bullets sufficient for paper or steel but not considered optimum for killing. Could be used for killing, but then we argue endlessly that they are not satisfactory for the killing and such and such hollow point round MUST be used.

Likewise, the raceguns, Olympic pistols and competition revolvers that shoot these rounds could be used for HD, but they were not designed for that purpose--they were designed to be superior in competition.

For myself, I have reloaded and purchased over 30,000 rounds meant for competition. I keep 20 rounds of Hydra-Shok on hand and cycle them through for practice and replacement about once a year.

 

[ruger270man]

wow.. I was actually thinking of contributing again, thought maybe vindi c wanted a good dicussion.. then he said that Michael Moore tells the truth?

:banghead:

 

[mnrivrat]

I don't know why so many people are unwilling to acknowledge that a great many guns are designed specifically for killing.

And your point is what ? It's an inanimate object with no capability of self manipulation . So who controls wether it is going to kill something ? What part of it is designed to kill independantly of the person who is in control of it ?

Ever been to a slaugter house ? There are things there designed for killing and some don't remotely resemble a firearm.

So to say it was designed to kill means what exactly ? That it is a more effective tool at killing perhaps ? (compared to what ?)

Well - go back and read my first paragraph "It's an inanimate object with no capability of self manipulation " . If you don't believe that ,then it makes little difference to debate what any firearm was made or designed for.

 

[only1asterisk]

Vindi, your village called and they want you to come home immediately.

David

 

[Itote]

Vindi-

Had you been armed on one of the two jets that hit the Towers in New York on 9/11/01 ,would you have stood by and let thousnds of innocents die?

Would you,if you were armed,let the pedophile drag your ten year old sister into his car and brutally rape and perhaps murder her?

Would you stand and watch your mother brutally savaged by a bunch of gangbangers if you had a firearm?

I know that I would not.

If you answered yes to any of the above questions,how does that make you feel?
How could anyone justify that?

I pray that you are never in any of the above mentioned scenarios,but it is a possibility.

Would you stand idle,or would you stand up?

I am proud to know that I have friends and neighbors(especially my friends here at The High Road) that would come to the aide of me and my family if any of the terrible things i questioned above came to light.

Im glad were in a country where were all free to choose(Thanks Barbera Mandrell)

God Bless everyone and God Bless the USA!

 

[Itote]

Vindi=

Oh,and by the way.

Bush is cool

America is the greatest country in the world

I was 15 once and I thought I knew it all.Looking back I realize just how ignorant i was too.

Dont feel to bad you'll grow out of it in a few years

And for the record Michael Moore IS an Idiot.

Initally you presented yourself like a gentleman.To bad that didn't last longer.Now be a good lad and go play.

 

[Spiphel Rike]

"while robberies and vandelisms may not be below the average the ammount of abductions, rapes, murders and takings of life are very low"

What tripe!!! Australia has the fourth highest rape rate in the world (tonight's episode of today tonight). vindi c do you have a sister? a girlfriend? a mother? if someone wanted to beat/rape/kill one of these three would you let them, or would you do your best to make sure they never do it again?

I know for a fact I'd fight to the last breath with whatever was at hand. I'm Australian too, and I think our gun laws are crap. Killing a person with a blade or blunt object leaves less physical evidence (residues e.t.c) which makes it more likely to get caught if you kill someone with a gun.

Guns are not dangerous, they are not something to be scared of. You cannot rely on the police to save you, in my city an old woman was raped because the police took over an hour to get there.

 

[ruger270man]

Vindi-

Had you been armed on one of the two jets that hit the Towers in New York on 9/11/01 ,would you have stood by and let thousnds of innocents die?

Would you,if you were armed,let the pedophile drag your ten year old sister into his car and brutally rape and perhaps murder her?

Would you stand and watch your mother brutally savaged by a bunch of gangbangers if you had a firearm?

I know that I would not.

well, you could spray mace at them, or maybe shoot them with a tazer.. hey abdu muhammed ali, hold on a second, let me yank the prongs out of this guy, so I can shoot you with my taser.. :banghead:

 

[280PLUS]

evidently,,,

plastic knives and forks weren't effective.

Poor vin got a lotta reading to do. I didnt know he/she was only 15?

Anyhoo, i had another thought to add. A friend of mine and I once found ourselves confronted by 2 South Korean railroad security types.

We were amusing ourselves taking pictures of the trains in the yard. They were using this leaky old steam engine to shuttle cars around. It was cool, I still have the pics somwhere.

Apparently they weren't amused. Their carry weapons?

Nice shiny hammers. Pointy ones at, my guess, 10 -12 ounces. Long handles.

We smiled alot and bowed a lot as we backed on out of there and beat feet.

 

[fistful]

mnrivrat and Guy,

Most of the guns I own, like my Mauser, were designed for killing people. If my S&W Mod 19 were not so designed, I'd have no use for it. This doesn't imply that it will kill on its own, it just means that the designer/manufacturer designed and built it for being used to end human life. There is nothing wrong with being prepared to kill, and there is nothing wrong with having weapons designed to kill. Why are we ashamed of our people-killing guns?

So to say it was designed to kill means what exactly ? That it is a more effective tool at killing perhaps ? (compared to what ?)

Mmmm, compared to a large, heavy, .22 target rifle, naturally. Compared to a doily. Compared to a rubber band. One could kill with a plastic icetray, perhaps, but not as easily as with a Glock 19.

 

[mmike87]

The myth of "shootouts in the streets" is just that - a myth. Despit 39(+?) states having right to carry laws in place, with hundreds of thousands of Americans carrying concealed in the United States, tales of reported shootouts are few and far between.

However, tales of guns used to thwart a crime are commonplace.

You make your choice for self defense. I will make mine. Why are you placing the responsibility for preserving the life of someone who is trying to kill me in my hands?

No one is taking my wallet. Yes, I will defend my possessions with my life. You can choose to roll over if you like. That is your right. But do NOT try and make yourself feel better about your own weak cowardess by implying that I don't have the right to defend myself or my property.

If someone is trying to kill me, can I call you and you can come with your Taser and save me?

Guns are certainly not for everyone. Owning and carrying are a great responsiblity. Everyone should choose the method of protection that suits their needs, feelings, and comfort level.

But don't anyone for a minute think you'll make my decision for me ... it's not going to happen.

Guns are NOT the problem. Drugs, poverty, and a society of ever increasing entitlements are the problem. Attacking guns is like blaming the dog food because your neighbors dog crapped on your lawn.

CCW permit holders have PROVEN themselves to be reliable, law abiding citizens. Leave us alone.

The English language does not have a word for how ticked I get when people cry about guns.

Liberalism is a disease.

 

[mfree]

I want to make some points.

The tribal gun factories in Pakistan crank out "excellent" copies of any gun you want, by hand, with usually nothing more than a file and a drill, out of scrap steel and wood. They reload cartridges too.

I can go into my workshop, find some car part that's a thick rod of hardened steel, weld one end closed, drill it to 1/2" or so, drill a little hole out the side, mount it in some manner of stock, melt some wheel weights into a bullet, and I've got an old fashioned matchlock pistol that would be *lethal* at short ranges. It takes nothing, really.

A couple pieces of water pipe and you've got a Filipino style slamfire shotgun, ala WWII. Research what it takes to make a Sten or an M3, or a liberator, or heck, a kentucky long rifle.

Gunpowder consists of sulfur, saltpeter, and charcoal. Those aren't terribly hard to find. Nitrocellulose (guncotton, predecessor of modern smokeless powder) is only slightly more difficult, nitric acid and cotton, with the additional step of chemical dehydration and ph stabilization.

See, guns were invented, IIRC, back in the 14'th century, though I could be wrong on that detail. Regardless, the average person with a workshop has technology that would put the best King's shops to shame. In fact, the only thing we don't do in our shops and garages these days is blacksmith, and that's because there's prefab metal *everywhere*.

You simply cannot get rid of guns... it's too easy to improvise.

 

[ckyllo]

vindi C, if you think that Moore is telling the truth,google any of the truth about BFC, watch that movie again and check the clothing that Mr. Heston is wearing in it during an NRA speech, he must be good in order to chang what he was wearing in the middle of a speech! there are many more but do the research yourself!

 

[Partisan Ranger]

I've never understood why people think an argument against guns is 'they're made for killing."

Even if guns have no other purpose, and I disagree on that, so what? If you take that line of argument, you are saying that there is never moral justification for killing someone in any circumstances. I think we've seen plenty of examples on this thread that shows that to be nonsense. If a terrorist savage is about to blow up a building and kill 5,000 people, and I am standing there with my Glock, I don't see how you can argue I am not justified in killing him. True, I would try other avenues first -- shouting I AM GOING TO SHOOT YOU, LIE DOWN NOW! for example -- but I would have no qualms ending the life of an animal who is about to murder innocents.

 

[entropy]

Vindi C, your naiveté is refreshing, but the fact remains that human nature is human nature. There have always, and will always be, those who do harm to others unprovoked. Even such a notable pacifist as The Dalai Lama has been quoted as saying, "If one were attacked with a gun, it would be reasonable to respond with your own gun." No greater a pacifist than Jesus Christ has exsisted, and yet his advice to his Apostles in Luke 22:36 is, 'Then he said unto them, "But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. " ' (Ryrie Study Bible, KJV) To put it into perspective, nakedness was reviled by first century Judeans. Jesus is telling them that being armed is more needed than the humiliation of going undressed in public.
Guns were developed as a response to armored vehicles on the battlefield. They were the most effective method of stopping these armored vehicles. The fact that these armored vehicles were knights, who were often killed in the event of stopping them, does not change the fact that stopping them was the primary objective. It was actually counterproductive financially, because captured knights could be ransomed.
A gun is a tool. Nothing more. Nothing less. It is one among many tools which are potentially lethal, including Tasers, as has been cited by many posting before me. Any intent lies with the bearer of a gun, not in the gun itself. Even if all guns on earth suddenly vanished, as has been cited, construction of new ones would immediately commence. You cannot uninvent a technology. Only a complete change in human nature can stop offensive attacks of all types, resulting in total peace. Until that happens, there is only method of defense against them:


(Thanks again, Oleg for this poster! )


I close quoting Flavius Vegetius Renatus :

Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.

Until human nature is changed, there is no other way.

Peace out.

 

[mnrivrat]

Fistful

it just means that the designer/manufacturer designed and built it for being used to end human life.

I think first of all you sorta missed my point . I have no disbute that there are weapons designed for war and therefore built to end human life.

My point is sorta - So What ? How many people have you killed with your mauser ? What real substance does it bring to the issue by saying guns are made for killing ? Many of them are made for sports, but are certainly capable of killing.

Your Model 19 is a civilian gun - not military issue , and not a weapon "designed for war" . Does that make it something designed for killing humans, or does it make it something that is capable of killing a human ?

There is a difference - and the difference is in the perception, based on how it is presented. And that IS important . WHY is it important ? Look to the so called "Assualt Weapon" ban for the answer. And listen to the arguments of the anti-gun people when they exclaim things like "You don't need this type of gun for hunting". (including you model 19)

What I'm saying is that the reference to designed for killing is irrelivant and potentialy harmful when used improperly. You can in fact kill someone with a gun , any gun , including those "designed" for hunting ducks, or those "designed" for compitition on paper targets.

You can also kill someone or something using a mutitude of other devises.

 

[Selfdfenz]

entropy

Good post.
S-

 

[hey_hi_its_me_vlad]

I don't know I'm 19 and have already used a gun for protection.

The point you made was made good enough I guess, but all I have to say is that I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for my winchester 1300 pistol-grip shotgun. A few weeks ago some guys decided that they have a grudge against me and that if I don't pay compensation and apologize, they would break down my door, and beat me everyday untill I payed them what they wanted. They are from a country where guns aren't common and to them it just isn't something they can comprehend. They are in general, a gunless group and use their large numbers to intimidate. They showed up at my house in number and I had no choice but to load the 12ga. with 8 rounds of buckshot and come out side. A simple "get the @#$% off my land!!!!!!" and " I get any more threats and your all dead!!! " was enough to keep them away. Some of my peers in this town had nothing to stand up for themselves with and had either been beaten, robbed or both by the same group. If guns are banned then groups of youngsters will always be looking for an easy way to get something they want, it's been proven over and over.

 

[Amadeus]

 

[Typhoon]

Troll or no, at the very least this person gave us another opportunity to refine our arguments and place them out into the public forum.

Let's just continue to do this whenever and wherever we can...

 

[Linux&Gun Guy]

nitric acid and cotton

Don't forget sulfuric to remove the water formed in the reaction and keep the equilibrium in favor of the formation of the nitrated ester now!

Treat all guns as if they are loaded - NEVER POINT THEM AT ANOTHER LIVING THING (i'm talking about on the shooting range, not when a burglar rapes ure friend)

remember - lots of guns spring load a bullet into the chamber as soon as you load up a clip - taking the clip out does NOT make the gun safe.

Use the safety hook always - and get your guns checked by a professional regularyly for any breaches on safety.

this is probably the most important one of all - keep your finger away from the trigger untill you are ready to fire!, keep it out of the trigger gaurd even!

Good advice of course but it was THR that came up with the 4 rules in their modern form(or was it TFL?)

Anyway - your wrong; read other peoples posts for more detail

BTW Im age 15 as well

 

[Typhoon]

Good advice of course but it was THR that came up with the 4 rules in their modern form(or was it TFL?)

It was Col. Jeff Cooper who first published them, if my information is correct. But not exactly in the same manner as stated by our Australian visitor...

 

[pezo]

A gun in your hands while an intruder is breaking in , is in fact a tool to assist you in preserving your life.

 

[P14Enfield]

Vindi, I invite you take a trip with me back to the American Revolution.

The Americans won the war due to many things, one of which was the militias. Almost every able man possessed a gun and at one time or another was in a militia.

Now lets say King George decided to ban guns in only the American colonies. The only weapons available would be smuggled, and this would have come from one of two places, either A. Spainish Florida, or French West Indies.

This proves that no matter what you ban it will still be available and sometimes the "bad" people can get a hold of guns. There is no way a total ban can occur unless it is a universal.

Lets go back to the American Revolution. Lets say King George did a ban on guns in all of the British Empire. The Redcoats would probably have guns due to the fact they are in the military. Yet the Americans would not need weapons, they could rely on redcoats for support. Ohh no wait we want taxation without representaion in Parlement, but wait we cannot over through the unjust government and tyranny of the king because of no weapons. I'm sorry, but martial arts wouldn't have cut it.

Guns have not only defended the people of the United States, they have saved the people of other countries too.




"The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation where the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." Madison


"Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties." Lincolin

The Constitution of the United States of America gaurentees the rights of men, I do not know what it is like there, but you cannot just say ... hmm let's ban guns. I do not see guns ever being banned, and if they do here, I predict a massive change in government.

 

[Bruce H]

Firearms were invented to launch a projectile at high sped in a preplanned direction. Thehuman being that planned the direction is completely responsible.