Thanks again, all very interesting. Obviously bigger slugs are superior, but I went for the rapier vs the cutlass as it were. To me the gun is an easy-to-reach equalizer---for the unlikely, rare situation where I might need to threaten deadly force. After all, how many gunfights are there in the US? How often do citizens actually brandish, much less use the weapon? I decided on a front-pocket gun that's unobtrusive, easy to reach, and something I could afford to extensively train with. I understand the ballistic limitations of .22, but it seems to me an equalizer I know well in my pocket is way better than one I know less well. Unless you're pretty well off the bigger slugs are expensive---rather rich for my tastes. As for the "panic" comment, I have seen reports that even trained users often stumble and fumble in test live-fire situations: if you're being charged, there's just no time. And if there is time, with a cool nerve you brandish, warn, and if necessary pop 8 rounds in. 7 or 8 Velocitors should make anybody take some notice. So of course, go with it and enjoy those huge cannons, but my point is, my little PT-22 is nothing to sneeze at and gives excellent reinforcement should I need it.
Reality vs Fantasy: the case for .22 Carry
- Thread starter slicer22
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fallout mike
Member
Actually if they are further than 10 ft you may have a better chance of hitting them with a sneeze than that gun. It looked like a 1" barrel.
Sergei Mosin
Member
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2011
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- 1,918
A gun, any gun, is a deterrent to someone who can be deterred - but what happens when deterrence fails? Then you have to use your gun, and if that happens, it's highly likely you'll wish you had something more than a .22. Nobody has ever walked away from a gunfight thinking, "Man, I wish I'd brought less gun." But plenty of people sure would have liked having more.
The standard defensive handgun calibers in the US are .38 Special and .357 Magnum for revolvers, 9x19 and .45 ACP for automatics (with sizeable minorities who favor .380 ACP and .40 S&W.) There's a reason for that. A handgun may be a deterrent, but it's also a weapon that may have to be used when deterrence fails. When you have to use it to stop a threat, you need a caliber that is capable of reliably stopping a threat. .22LR does not fall into that category. That it has killed and can kill is not in question - but it cannot be trusted to reliably stop a threat. When you are threatened, you need to neutralize that threat as quickly as possible. It follows that you need to carry the best tool for the job - and the .22LR is not that tool. A defensive handgun should be chambered for one of the centerfire cartridges named above, or something similar - NOT a rimfire.
The standard defensive handgun calibers in the US are .38 Special and .357 Magnum for revolvers, 9x19 and .45 ACP for automatics (with sizeable minorities who favor .380 ACP and .40 S&W.) There's a reason for that. A handgun may be a deterrent, but it's also a weapon that may have to be used when deterrence fails. When you have to use it to stop a threat, you need a caliber that is capable of reliably stopping a threat. .22LR does not fall into that category. That it has killed and can kill is not in question - but it cannot be trusted to reliably stop a threat. When you are threatened, you need to neutralize that threat as quickly as possible. It follows that you need to carry the best tool for the job - and the .22LR is not that tool. A defensive handgun should be chambered for one of the centerfire cartridges named above, or something similar - NOT a rimfire.
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gun addict
Member
why do you refer to everyone else's gun as "big canons?" is a 9mm too much for you to handle? And honestly im not sure if you should even have a CCW with attitude like yours, you are much more likely to hurt bystanders if you arnt willing to train, practice and listen other people's suggestions.
And there is no rapier vs cutlass comparison, this isnt a martial art forum or discussion group. There is a dramatic difference between getting hit by a .22LR out of a tiny taurus versus a 9mm hollowpoint or a 45acp slug.
And there is no rapier vs cutlass comparison, this isnt a martial art forum or discussion group. There is a dramatic difference between getting hit by a .22LR out of a tiny taurus versus a 9mm hollowpoint or a 45acp slug.
Slicer appears to be one of those who makes a post not to learn, but to validate his point. When people disagree, he proves it.
The .357 revolver, or .380/9mm/.40 S&W/.45 ACP are not "huge cannons". .44 magnum, .357 sig (maybe), 10mm auto, or something like that could be considered a "huge cannon", but these rounds are considered the staple personal defense rounds for a reason.
The purpose of a gun as an equalizer is that if you are looking at me (5'6, 150 lb.) and a 5'10, 200 lb. attacker, both unarmed, then you're looking at the physicality of the people. If you look at us both armed with a firearm, then it matters not what our build is, but about what weapon we have and how we use it. While I wouldn't want to get shot by a .22, I'd much rather be on the side of a 9mm should there be a 9mm and a .22 on opposite sides of the firefight.
The .357 revolver, or .380/9mm/.40 S&W/.45 ACP are not "huge cannons". .44 magnum, .357 sig (maybe), 10mm auto, or something like that could be considered a "huge cannon", but these rounds are considered the staple personal defense rounds for a reason.
The purpose of a gun as an equalizer is that if you are looking at me (5'6, 150 lb.) and a 5'10, 200 lb. attacker, both unarmed, then you're looking at the physicality of the people. If you look at us both armed with a firearm, then it matters not what our build is, but about what weapon we have and how we use it. While I wouldn't want to get shot by a .22, I'd much rather be on the side of a 9mm should there be a 9mm and a .22 on opposite sides of the firefight.
I guess the "General Gun Discussions" heading is without meaning and the forum is only open to some elite few, to judge by some of the "Troll!" and similar comments. I put out my original post with a strong assertion, in hopes the rhetoric would stimulate some responses and challenge my theories. That it has! As for the Taurus PT-22, it has proven fair at 15 yards, good at 10 and very good at 5. But my theory of deterrence and equalization appears to be in ruins. I will train at length with the .22 and look to move up in due course. Thanks to all for taking the time to reply.
toivo
Member
OK, I'll play...
I have a bunch of handguns in a bunch of different calibers. I too am fond of the pocket pistol concept -- the convenience factor makes it almost a no-brainer for me. The circumstances I live and work in are such that carrying a larger pistol is mostly not an option. I regularly carry a .32 pocket pistol. I have even been known to carry a .25 on occasion. But I wouldn't carry a .22, and here's why.
I have a PT-22, and I think it's a really fun little gun. That's what I use it for: fun. However, more than once -- quite a few times, actually -- I have pulled the trigger and the gun went "click." This is with ammo that is generally considered very reliable: CCI Mini-Mags. When I pull the trigger again, it goes "bang" -- most of the time. When it doesn't, I have to pop the barrel up and pry the round out with my fingernail because this pistol has no extractor. Not a big deal on the range, but if I were in a situation where I had to defend myself, it would be a great big huge hairy deal. Rimfires are prone to misfires: it's in the nature of the cartridge. Some cartridge/gun combinations are worse than others, but all things being equal, centerfire is more reliable than rimfire by a large margin.
If you're going to carry, the rule of thumb is to carry the largest caliber that you feasibly can. I can rationalize carrying a smaller caliber. What I can't rationalize is carrying a pistol that is less than 100% reliable.
Train with your Taurus, but carry a centerfire. (Train with your carry pistol too, of course.) That would be my recommendation. Kel-Tec P32, Kel-Tec P3AT, Ruger LCP: these are all reliable pocket pistols. If you're moving away from the pocket pistol concept and are looking at Bersas, consider pairing a Firestorm .22 and a Thunder .380 as a training/carrying combination.
I have a bunch of handguns in a bunch of different calibers. I too am fond of the pocket pistol concept -- the convenience factor makes it almost a no-brainer for me. The circumstances I live and work in are such that carrying a larger pistol is mostly not an option. I regularly carry a .32 pocket pistol. I have even been known to carry a .25 on occasion. But I wouldn't carry a .22, and here's why.
I have a PT-22, and I think it's a really fun little gun. That's what I use it for: fun. However, more than once -- quite a few times, actually -- I have pulled the trigger and the gun went "click." This is with ammo that is generally considered very reliable: CCI Mini-Mags. When I pull the trigger again, it goes "bang" -- most of the time. When it doesn't, I have to pop the barrel up and pry the round out with my fingernail because this pistol has no extractor. Not a big deal on the range, but if I were in a situation where I had to defend myself, it would be a great big huge hairy deal. Rimfires are prone to misfires: it's in the nature of the cartridge. Some cartridge/gun combinations are worse than others, but all things being equal, centerfire is more reliable than rimfire by a large margin.
If you're going to carry, the rule of thumb is to carry the largest caliber that you feasibly can. I can rationalize carrying a smaller caliber. What I can't rationalize is carrying a pistol that is less than 100% reliable.
Train with your Taurus, but carry a centerfire. (Train with your carry pistol too, of course.) That would be my recommendation. Kel-Tec P32, Kel-Tec P3AT, Ruger LCP: these are all reliable pocket pistols. If you're moving away from the pocket pistol concept and are looking at Bersas, consider pairing a Firestorm .22 and a Thunder .380 as a training/carrying combination.
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Dr.Mall Ninja
Member
Now that idea is pretty Hollywood... are you going to be in Dodge City or something?
Ya know that you can get SAA Clones in 22lr...
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Have you tried to test your own theories in any way? If so, how did you go about doing it?
wildehond
Member
You choose your weapons and you take your pain. But do not tell me I am wrong for choosing a 40S&W. I have experienced incoming fire. I will stick with the 40S&W for now thanks.
I guarantee that the first time you need to even think about drawing your gun to defend your life, you'll wish it were something much bigger. OTOH, a .22 in the pocket is better than a .45 sitting in the safe.
One point I disagree on is speed. I can't imagine digging a little pistol out of a pocket could be faster than drawing a larger gun from a holster.
One point I disagree on is speed. I can't imagine digging a little pistol out of a pocket could be faster than drawing a larger gun from a holster.
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In times in my life, I've come close to looking down the barrel of a gun, in particular a Walther PPK/S, .380. What went through my mind was if that drunk/high ass points that thing at me, he's loosing his eyes, throat, and I'm going to kill him, no matter what. I had no gun at the time.
He did have two huge friends I was going to also kill or maim. He cut my skull with the gun, but, I never looked down the barrel, thinking he was going to do anything but brandish, and I was right. I survived, with a few stiches.
My point is simple. You point the thing at me, I'm going to do everything I can to kill you before your round takes effect. I'm not going to stop, and I don't much care about pain. You really want a .22lr in that situation? Ex-boxer, martial artist, etc. Given those limitations, a .22lr hurts like hell. Better then an ice pick.
He did have two huge friends I was going to also kill or maim. He cut my skull with the gun, but, I never looked down the barrel, thinking he was going to do anything but brandish, and I was right. I survived, with a few stiches.
My point is simple. You point the thing at me, I'm going to do everything I can to kill you before your round takes effect. I'm not going to stop, and I don't much care about pain. You really want a .22lr in that situation? Ex-boxer, martial artist, etc. Given those limitations, a .22lr hurts like hell. Better then an ice pick.
bottom shelf
Member
Not too likely you'd be able to do this, with any amount of training. After the presentation, you'd have a moving target. It might even be shooting back. If you then emptied the magazine like you do at the range on a stationary piece of paper, it would most likely result in 0 hits.
Consider a Ruger 22/45. It has the grip and feel of a 1911 type weapon, and you can afford to shoot .22's for hours. While it will not replicate the recoil, the trigger pull and sight picture acquisition practice should improve your accuracy. This particular model seems to have no feeding issues with whatever cheap stuff you run through it. They make several 1911 type models in different calibers including 9mm if you are wanting to go the "cheaper" ammo route. Another option is some companies make slides that will convert your larger caliber handguns into .22's. The downside with these are the charge in standard .22lr cartridges sometimes do not have the powder to effectively and repeatedly move the slide back. FTF's can result. EA imports the "Witness" which is a decent .45 with the .22 slide included if you buy that set, for about $500. Good luck. Be careful using a gun as a deterrent, if some clown accosts you on the street, and you pull a weapon and do not fire it, he can run, flag down a cop, and have you arrested for brandishing.
olafhardtB
Member
- Joined
- May 8, 2011
- Messages
- 393
You show more wisdom than most. I carry a 38 snub because I like it and it is as portable as my 22 snubs. If I was limited to one I think I would take the 22.With all this blovating on training and practice I must point out that both are easier, cheaper, more available and more fun with a 22You can train your self to be quite capable with a cheap 22. Every living critter I have seen shot with a 22 changed its behavior. However I have beheaded or dramitically disemboweled critters that continued to fight.
oldfool
Member
"ninja-warrior's space-age"
that do seems to be THE focus of OP, far more so than sight picture, CCW, or SD
suspicion - doesn't own a centerfire handgun ?
suggestion - find a sensei friend with a 357 (space age styling optional), visit a gun range, seek enlightenment...
every ninja-warrior wannabe ought give it a whirl,
(or at least watch a rerun of "Raiders of the Lost Ark")
that do seems to be THE focus of OP, far more so than sight picture, CCW, or SD
suspicion - doesn't own a centerfire handgun ?
suggestion - find a sensei friend with a 357 (space age styling optional), visit a gun range, seek enlightenment...
every ninja-warrior wannabe ought give it a whirl,
(or at least watch a rerun of "Raiders of the Lost Ark")
Lex Luthier
Member
To each his own.
I choose 9 mm or .40 cal only for personal carry. In the case of an altercation with a bad guy, I want to knock him down, not tickle him or make him more aggressive.
Certainly most self-respecting bad guys wouldn't dream of carrying a .22.
I choose 9 mm or .40 cal only for personal carry. In the case of an altercation with a bad guy, I want to knock him down, not tickle him or make him more aggressive.
Certainly most self-respecting bad guys wouldn't dream of carrying a .22.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Sadly, you probably won't do either.
IMHO the OP needs to do a lot more reading and studying about self defense. There's a lot of mentions of "deterrence" (you don't 'deter' anything with a concealed piece) and "brandishing" (you don't draw unless you're ready to shoot) and "rational" opponents (if you need to draw, by definition your opponent is no longer rational).
I agree that if a .22 is all you have when you need it to defend yourself, it is certainly better than nothing.
Self defense, however, is a much bigger equation than what caliber you have sitting in your holster. I recommend you read up on the other aspects, legalities, and tactics of true self defense with a firearm before pontificating on the use of a particular gun or caliber in that role.
I agree that if a .22 is all you have when you need it to defend yourself, it is certainly better than nothing.
Self defense, however, is a much bigger equation than what caliber you have sitting in your holster. I recommend you read up on the other aspects, legalities, and tactics of true self defense with a firearm before pontificating on the use of a particular gun or caliber in that role.
M2 Carbine
member
Probably there's few guys badder than the Israeli Mossad.
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tactical-weapons/israeli-mossad-22-lrs/
I have a Beretta 70S but don't carry it.
I choose to carry a 45 Kimber Ultra but seldom can in the long hot Texas Summers.
Because of the way I dress I try to pocket carry a Ruger LC9.
Many times I pocket carry a .380 Ruger LCP.
If I ever have to use the LCP I suspect the first thing I think is, "I wish I had a bigger gun".
The average shooter counting on putting multiple (22) shots in a BG is a dream. I practice 5-6 days a week (home range) and I guarantee under stress and movement I'll be lucky to hit the BG a couple shots out of five.
Look at it this way. The BG is probably as good (or bad) as you are. So if you can put multiple shots in him, he will be putting multiple shots in you. You better make the first shot, out of a powerful gun, count. Forget the multiple hits stuff because you probably can't or won't get a chance to do it.
JohnBT
Member
"Some of us don't know everything yet so we get on forums to learn things."
We all do it. The thing is, you weren't asking for information in your first post, you were lecturing. You learn things by asking or just listening. Feel free to stick around and do both.
John
We all do it. The thing is, you weren't asking for information in your first post, you were lecturing. You learn things by asking or just listening. Feel free to stick around and do both.
John
You must have a crystal ball, I envy you.
Again that must be some sort of amazing crystal ball.
It's that line of thinking that gets people hurt. If you aren't going to take the time to develop credible skill and have faith in your ability you shouldn't carry any gun.
I spend more money on better guns and more effective calibers because they are better at stopping a threat quickly and more reliable. The only reason I see for someone to carry a .22 is because they are extremely recoil sensitive or can't afford to own/shoot anything else.
"rational assailant"
If they are an assailant, are they acting in a rational manner?
Seems contradictory.
If you want "reasonable" protection from a pocket size pistol, then a Ruger LCP or Kel-Tec P3AT would be a "good" choice.
Out of my pocket 380 (average for 5 shots)
Winchester Ranger T 95 gr. @ 876 fps / 162# KE
Federal Hydra-Shok 90 gr. @ 845 fps / 143# KE
I don't like to think about my odds if I only had that 380 against a very irrational, armed, and possibly drugged person intending to do me harm. Would I score a hit, maybe; would it (380) hit hard enough to prevent them from inflicting injury to me, doubtful.
Onward Allusion
Member
Troll? Bored? Heck of an intro post if you ain't...
Listen, carry whatever you want, but don't come up with rationalizations that could get newbies killed.
Sure, any gun is better than no gun, but with the size of modern 32ACP, .380ACP and even 9mm - why in the world would ANYONE carry a RIMFIRE 22LR in this day and age? Heck if you are just absolutely in love with the Taurus Poly pocket pistol - get it chambered in 25ACP. No, really! Get educated on ballistics! No, your little Taurus isn't going to throw a 40 grain 22LR bullet downrange at 1,300 fps.
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