I don't understand why people always complain about the VEPR's weight. I have one, it's really not that bad. It weighs like 1.5-2 pounds more than similar-sized rifles. If you can't handle an extra 2 pounds maybe you should be hitting the gym.
Recommendation for 'Homeland Defense' rifle
- Thread starter Snark
- Start date
- Status
mustanger98
Member
Do ya'll notice how contrary everybody gets towards opinions other than those for the latestblackgreatestplasticultratacticool "1000yd fully automatic sniper assault rifle" wannabe? If it ain't ugly and expensive, some folks just can't handle it. Just like if a bolt rifle ain't scoped, some can't handle it. hehehe
Here's a case in point:
Hmmm. The problem with shooting semi-autos is you'll spend more time loading mags than you will shooting and putting rounds on target. A real rifleman knows how to make every shot count. If you don't, you will "spray and pray" and that ain't learning to shoot. I recall somebody's sig line that says you won't rise to the occassion; you'll default to your level of training.
So, rifles are romantic notions... hmmm... That's part of the problem with this country. I've heard more opinions to the effect that America ain't a rifleman's country anymore. IED's may have their place in Homeland Defense, but they ain't the whole story. I'm recalling what somebody said about "when your only tool is a hammer, all the problems start looking like nails".
BTW, who's the enemy in this case? I sure hope it ain't other Americans, since we've already been down that road once.
Here's a case in point:
Hmmm. The problem with shooting semi-autos is you'll spend more time loading mags than you will shooting and putting rounds on target. A real rifleman knows how to make every shot count. If you don't, you will "spray and pray" and that ain't learning to shoot. I recall somebody's sig line that says you won't rise to the occassion; you'll default to your level of training.
So, rifles are romantic notions... hmmm... That's part of the problem with this country. I've heard more opinions to the effect that America ain't a rifleman's country anymore. IED's may have their place in Homeland Defense, but they ain't the whole story. I'm recalling what somebody said about "when your only tool is a hammer, all the problems start looking like nails".
BTW, who's the enemy in this case? I sure hope it ain't other Americans, since we've already been down that road once.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
It wasn't the advocacy of a bolt rifle, but the sneer at those of us who prefer self-loaders, that drew the more pointed replies:
The false dichotomy of a bolt gun that can shoot vs. "semi-auto crap" that can only "blast" is just that, a false dichotomy.
modifiedbrowning
Member
The AR-180B would be a good choice if you can find one for $500.
Old Dude
Member
Yep, you can shoot well enough with both a semi-auto and a bolt action in a "Homeland Defense" scenario. I won't argue that point.
But a question I have is the question of simplicity/reliability/ease of use. What would I gain or loose in the previously mentioned terms by buying, say, a Savage bolt action rifle as opposed to, say, a Bushmaster in the same caliber--.223.
But a question I have is the question of simplicity/reliability/ease of use. What would I gain or loose in the previously mentioned terms by buying, say, a Savage bolt action rifle as opposed to, say, a Bushmaster in the same caliber--.223.
Commissar Gribb
Member
that's nice- I'll just stick with my garand and my old wood+ steel AKs.
true enough!
you dont usually hear someone say "wait till I scope out my snubby .357"
ABSOLUTELY TRUE! If you aren't trained to shoot you are more likely to spray with a semi than with a bolt.
I think, however that it's good to be trained so that you dont have to resort to spraying.
no- using sportster rifles and neutered semi autos against enemies with grenade launchers, full autos, armored vehicles etc. is a romantic notion.
neither are rifles.
all in all I think a person can spend just as much time if not MORE loading an internal magazine. It takes me about half a minute to load 30 rounds into a mag using stripper clips.
I think the problem is that I spend more time aiming and less time acquiring/cycling between shots.
Homeland Security/ Survival Rifle
Hey gang,
As we have seen from the Katrina disaster, the idea of gun serving a role in survival situations should be as relevant today as it was during the time of our Founding Fathers. The rampant looting, assaults, murders, and wonton destruction are just a reminder to all of us that danger can, and does strike when we're least suspecting it. And Katrina also illustrated that Uncle Sugar and our local powers to be cannot be counted on to hand hold us through the tough times. We should be like the greatest generation, self reliant and ready to take on trouble if the need arises.
That said, my choices for a Homeland Security/ Survival Rifle are based on my personal requirements. Here are the requirements:
1. The rifle should fire a caliber that is capable of stopping a man sized target, rabid dog, wild animal, etc. and be prevalent, easy to acquire, and fairly cheap to buy. (.223, 5.45x39, 7.62x39, 30-30, .308, 30-06).
2. The rifle should be fairly light weight (4.5 to 9 pounds MAX).
3. The rifle should have easily acquired after market products that can be easily replaced at any gunshow, gunstore, or sporting goods department, such as magazines, rail systems, scope mounts etc.
4. The rifle should be rugged and reliable enough to handle abuse use if the need arises to use it in a emergency situation. REMEMBER, this rifle is supposed to save your life during a survival situation. Don't just go with the cheapest solution, but don't overlook a rifle just because its not at the same price level as a "real rifle" like an AR or M-1A. An AK or 30-30 lever action will work just as well as the high priced weapons if you can shoot it well, under stressful conditions.
5. The rifle should have reasonable accuracy out to 250 yards (1-3 moa). This should provide you the enhanced likelihood of hitting your intended target within reasonable engagement ranges whether it be man or beast.
So, based on these requirements, here are my suggestions, based on budgets.
$100-$699:
1. SKS ($100-$200) 7.62x39, 10 rounds, plenty of aftermarkets products
2. 30-30 lever actions ($250-$400) .357 Mag, .44 Mag, .30-30 6-10 rounds
3. Kel-tec SU-16 ($450-$500) .223, uses M-16 mags, picattiny rail for scope
4. Romanian AKs ($350-$450) .223, 5.45x39, 7.62x39, Plentiful aftermarket products.
5. CMP M1 Garand ($500) 30-06, 8 round enbloc, plenty of surplus products.
6. Armalite AR-180B- ($550-$650) Takes M-16 mags, lightweight (6.5 lbs), very reliable
7. Olympic Arms Plinker- AR for $595
8. Savage Arms 10GXP3- $539, adjustable trigger, lightweight, comes with scope.
9. CETME- .308 on a budget ($500)
$700-Above
1. AR-($900-$2,500) .223, .6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, .308, .300 RSAUM, Armalite, Bushmaster, DPMS, Olympic Arms, Rock River Arms. Battle Proven, tons of after market products, dominates Camp Perry Matches, controversial gas system.
2a. Robinson Arms XCR- ($1,300) Multi barrel length, multi-caliber .223, 6.8 SPC, M4 Modularity, AK reliability. Utilizes M-16 mags.
2b. Robinson Arms M96- ($1,500) Multi barrel length, M4 Modularity, Cadillac Gage Stoner enhanced design. Utilizes M-16 mags
3. M-1A- ($1,500-$2,500) .308, plenty of aftermarket products, proven war horse that has been taken out of mothballs to serve the US Soldier, Sailor and Marine in Afghanistan and Iraq. Heavy (9-10.5 lbs)
4. FN-FAL- ($750-$2,000) .308, plenty of aftermarket products
5. G-3- ($750-$1,500) .308, Proven German battle rifle.
Well folks, there is my suggestions. My personal picks would be a CMP M1 Garand ($500) or VEPR K 7.62x39 ($550) on a budget.
Without a budget I would pick a Springfield M-1A in .308 or a FN-FAL in .308.
I hope this was helpful.
Hey gang,
As we have seen from the Katrina disaster, the idea of gun serving a role in survival situations should be as relevant today as it was during the time of our Founding Fathers. The rampant looting, assaults, murders, and wonton destruction are just a reminder to all of us that danger can, and does strike when we're least suspecting it. And Katrina also illustrated that Uncle Sugar and our local powers to be cannot be counted on to hand hold us through the tough times. We should be like the greatest generation, self reliant and ready to take on trouble if the need arises.
That said, my choices for a Homeland Security/ Survival Rifle are based on my personal requirements. Here are the requirements:
1. The rifle should fire a caliber that is capable of stopping a man sized target, rabid dog, wild animal, etc. and be prevalent, easy to acquire, and fairly cheap to buy. (.223, 5.45x39, 7.62x39, 30-30, .308, 30-06).
2. The rifle should be fairly light weight (4.5 to 9 pounds MAX).
3. The rifle should have easily acquired after market products that can be easily replaced at any gunshow, gunstore, or sporting goods department, such as magazines, rail systems, scope mounts etc.
4. The rifle should be rugged and reliable enough to handle abuse use if the need arises to use it in a emergency situation. REMEMBER, this rifle is supposed to save your life during a survival situation. Don't just go with the cheapest solution, but don't overlook a rifle just because its not at the same price level as a "real rifle" like an AR or M-1A. An AK or 30-30 lever action will work just as well as the high priced weapons if you can shoot it well, under stressful conditions.
5. The rifle should have reasonable accuracy out to 250 yards (1-3 moa). This should provide you the enhanced likelihood of hitting your intended target within reasonable engagement ranges whether it be man or beast.
So, based on these requirements, here are my suggestions, based on budgets.
$100-$699:
1. SKS ($100-$200) 7.62x39, 10 rounds, plenty of aftermarkets products
2. 30-30 lever actions ($250-$400) .357 Mag, .44 Mag, .30-30 6-10 rounds
3. Kel-tec SU-16 ($450-$500) .223, uses M-16 mags, picattiny rail for scope
4. Romanian AKs ($350-$450) .223, 5.45x39, 7.62x39, Plentiful aftermarket products.
5. CMP M1 Garand ($500) 30-06, 8 round enbloc, plenty of surplus products.
6. Armalite AR-180B- ($550-$650) Takes M-16 mags, lightweight (6.5 lbs), very reliable
7. Olympic Arms Plinker- AR for $595
8. Savage Arms 10GXP3- $539, adjustable trigger, lightweight, comes with scope.
9. CETME- .308 on a budget ($500)
$700-Above
1. AR-($900-$2,500) .223, .6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, .308, .300 RSAUM, Armalite, Bushmaster, DPMS, Olympic Arms, Rock River Arms. Battle Proven, tons of after market products, dominates Camp Perry Matches, controversial gas system.
2a. Robinson Arms XCR- ($1,300) Multi barrel length, multi-caliber .223, 6.8 SPC, M4 Modularity, AK reliability. Utilizes M-16 mags.
2b. Robinson Arms M96- ($1,500) Multi barrel length, M4 Modularity, Cadillac Gage Stoner enhanced design. Utilizes M-16 mags
3. M-1A- ($1,500-$2,500) .308, plenty of aftermarket products, proven war horse that has been taken out of mothballs to serve the US Soldier, Sailor and Marine in Afghanistan and Iraq. Heavy (9-10.5 lbs)
4. FN-FAL- ($750-$2,000) .308, plenty of aftermarket products
5. G-3- ($750-$1,500) .308, Proven German battle rifle.
Well folks, there is my suggestions. My personal picks would be a CMP M1 Garand ($500) or VEPR K 7.62x39 ($550) on a budget.
Without a budget I would pick a Springfield M-1A in .308 or a FN-FAL in .308.
I hope this was helpful.
mustanger98
Member
You know, I wasn't wanting to get too aweful heated over this, but sneers can come from either direction. I've heard plenty of it from EBR owners who say a bolt or lever is flat out inferior just because it's not what they prefer. For a new shooter or somebody looking for opinions, I think all opinions not coming from trolls are to be considered. The final decision, however, is based on the individuals own needs and it ain't always what everybody else thinks is cool.
As I said, I own a couple of semi's too.
Old Dude:
Well, I have a Savage Model 11GL (sights on the barrel- mine's left handed) in .243Winchester- it also comes in .223Rem. and .308Win. They don't cost as much as either a Rem. or Win. in either caliber while shooting just as well, IMO. The Savage also don't cost as much as the Bushmaster AR, by half the money. Reliability; it should function when everything else don't. Ease of use; this crankbolt is very easy to use. Real good accuracy too.
Commissar Gribb:
That would mean the French, Dutch, and Belgian Resistance outfits, as well as several Latin American revolutionary groups were a romantic notion, because they used anything they could get. Granted, the weapons the WW2 resistance folks used the most were Stens and anything they captured off the Germans, but they also used a cheaply made pistol to commandeer stuff, but they probably used anything else they could possibly get. Their enemies were armed much as you described.
Get shot by a guy with "sportster rifles and neutered semi autos" and you're just as shot as if you'd got it from somebody with anything pre-ban and/or w/ "da switch".
That was the point. Neither rifles, nor IED's are the whole picture. Like I said about "when your only tool is a hammer..."
Sandmann, Good points. However, price vary.
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Revolver Justice
Member
Buy a used Winchester or Marlin lever gun in 30-30 for about $200 and spend the rest on ammo. That is all the firepower you need.. A lever action in the hands of a determined man is as fast and deadly as some commie surplus. Besides what is a more fitting end to a piece of terrorist slime than to be done in with the classic American rifle and caliber.
Just wanted to point out that the CMP M1 Garand can be had for less than 400$ as long as service grade is not required. Were I making this choice, if all 500$ went to the gun I might get a shooter's grade Yugo SKS AND a field or rack grade CMP M1 Garand. But I noticed you have the mauser and mosin, so maybe the M1 is not necessary for penetration or distance. Perhaps, I would go with the SAR-1. I love mine and it never has let me down, just plan on potentially getting a replacement trigger (drop in part, no big deal). But, after witnessing the Katrina situation I think that the ability to defend ones self and property must be balanced with the ability to keep your weapon concealed from the authorities. That said, either the SAR-1 with a folding stock or the SU-16C (I have shot this folded and unfolded and it works well) will fit in a normal backpack thus allowing some measure of concealment. I might give the nod to the SS-16C becaue it is lighter, as is its ammo.
Here's the solution to the autoloader/bolt action controversy. Buy a Yugo SKS with the grenade launcher. Put the gas selector on the grenade position. Fire it as a straight pull bolt action rifle until you learn to shoot. Put the gas selector back in semi-auto mode. Perforate the target ten times rapid.
Everybody happy now?
And for you real old schoolers out there...
Fix bayonet and have your friend reel in the target. Gut your target as it "charges" your position.
Everybody happy now?
And for you real old schoolers out there...
Fix bayonet and have your friend reel in the target. Gut your target as it "charges" your position.
Tylden
Member
I agree with RevolverJustice.....I recently bought a like new vintage Marlin lever action .30-30 (country boy assault rifle) and I'm very pleased with it. I'm looking for a rear apeture peep sight for it now and then it will be ready for homeland defense duty (along with my Mossberg 590A1 12ga. pump shotgun). I feel confident I won't be underarmed if the SHTF.
nyresq
Member
For "homeland defense" I personally have a Colt 6920, not because its a "AR-15, best assault rifle on earth, super assault weapon, EBG, blah blah" but because I qualify with it at work, and can justify it as a LEO. I use it at work, I'm familiar with it and carry it daily.
I always use the "next day headline test" for hard choices. Think what would look better... "man shoots intruder with deer rifle" or "man guns down local boy with machine gun". Given your limited funds, I would go with a lever action winchester. Lever actions don't care what posistion their in when you cycle them like bolt actions do. turn a scoped bolt action on its side and cycle it and its likely to jamb. And I'd rather hit someone with a .30-.30 winchester then a .223.
nothing looks better from the media standpoint then a person shot by a wanna-be mercinary with an assault weapon with a 30 round magazine. do the same deed with a lever action deer rifle with open sights and your just a man defending his family.
Don't read me wrong here, I encourage everyone I know to own a gun, and I believe the RTKBA is not about "hunting"; but I have know personally, and been involved in cases where good people who were legally in the right got raked over the coal by the media for defending their lives and family. Don't let the bastards get the chance, and they won't be able to make you look like a "vigilante" and prosicute you in the papers.
I always use the "next day headline test" for hard choices. Think what would look better... "man shoots intruder with deer rifle" or "man guns down local boy with machine gun". Given your limited funds, I would go with a lever action winchester. Lever actions don't care what posistion their in when you cycle them like bolt actions do. turn a scoped bolt action on its side and cycle it and its likely to jamb. And I'd rather hit someone with a .30-.30 winchester then a .223.
nothing looks better from the media standpoint then a person shot by a wanna-be mercinary with an assault weapon with a 30 round magazine. do the same deed with a lever action deer rifle with open sights and your just a man defending his family.
Don't read me wrong here, I encourage everyone I know to own a gun, and I believe the RTKBA is not about "hunting"; but I have know personally, and been involved in cases where good people who were legally in the right got raked over the coal by the media for defending their lives and family. Don't let the bastards get the chance, and they won't be able to make you look like a "vigilante" and prosicute you in the papers.
Commissar Gribb
Member
and I would do the same thing too- but dont tell me that if came upon a crate full of thompsons, garands and BARs that they would shun them in favore of some old flintlocks.
though I guess even an old musket can't be much worse than one of those liberator pistols....
Donald R Doyle
Member
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2005
- Messages
- 3
What is the best "Homeland Defense Rifle"???
In some ways guns are like cars, you get what you pay for. Old bolt action rifles belong in museums, and Com-Bloc weapons are "Made by peasants, for peasants." If you are just talking about defending your physical house then a shotgun would suffice. But if your talking about run and gun with the "enemy" then a QUALITY military assault rifle is in order. What ever you get practice with it a lot, read all the info about it you can, before and after the purchase. Also honesty consider your age, general health, your vision and what these factors will be in the next few years. Another factor is this firearm just for you ?? or are other family members expected to be able to use it ?? I love my Steyr-Aug and will put it up against any rifle in the world for fast multi target situations but it is very expensive for most people again, you get what you pay for. For most people a short barreled AR-15 will do fine. What ever rifle you get make sure you get the biggest boat-tail HOLLOW POINT bullets you can find as these make all the difference in the world.
In some ways guns are like cars, you get what you pay for. Old bolt action rifles belong in museums, and Com-Bloc weapons are "Made by peasants, for peasants." If you are just talking about defending your physical house then a shotgun would suffice. But if your talking about run and gun with the "enemy" then a QUALITY military assault rifle is in order. What ever you get practice with it a lot, read all the info about it you can, before and after the purchase. Also honesty consider your age, general health, your vision and what these factors will be in the next few years. Another factor is this firearm just for you ?? or are other family members expected to be able to use it ?? I love my Steyr-Aug and will put it up against any rifle in the world for fast multi target situations but it is very expensive for most people again, you get what you pay for. For most people a short barreled AR-15 will do fine. What ever rifle you get make sure you get the biggest boat-tail HOLLOW POINT bullets you can find as these make all the difference in the world.
WOW!! Does someone need to justify all of the money they spent?
Really people, it is the tactics and skill that matter most (broken record), as long as the gun goes bang and is pointed in the right direction it will for the most part do the job. Unless of course it can't penetrate cover, more a problem for some calibers and bullet types. I think this thread was very specifically asking what HDR to get for less than 500$ given the weapons already owned by Snark. And unless I am mistaken Homeland Defense Rifles are not limited to home defense and suggest a situation in which the long term legal system or media or not a primary concern, hopefully situations we can plan for but will never experience.
mustanger98
Member
Commissar Gribb Quote:
I never said they would shun Thompsons, Garands, and BARs in favor of a flintlock. I said they used what they could get. A lot of times, that was a K98k Mauser commandeered with a Liberator pistol. Thing I'm saying is that todays bolt action sporters, some scoped and some with irons, are every bit as usful as a K98k would be. And all those boltguns are useful as Homeland Defense rifles. You just have to set up your scenario to your advantage when and where possible.
I never said they would shun Thompsons, Garands, and BARs in favor of a flintlock. I said they used what they could get. A lot of times, that was a K98k Mauser commandeered with a Liberator pistol. Thing I'm saying is that todays bolt action sporters, some scoped and some with irons, are every bit as usful as a K98k would be. And all those boltguns are useful as Homeland Defense rifles. You just have to set up your scenario to your advantage when and where possible.
Lever action can be quick to shoot, but not so quick to reload. For many situations short of full combat, reloading speed isn't a huge issue if a couple of people work together and have a plan.
My concern is how reliable a lever gun is when it gets HOT. After 60 (or more) rounds of rapid-fire, not an unreasonable number of shots for an ambush or defense situation, will the lever gun still be feeding, firing, and ejecting reliably? Will the shooter still be able to hold onto it due to heat from the barrel? Will the precisely machined lever-action parts get hot, expand, and then not move so well or at all? ARs, AKs, Garands, M1A/M14s, FALs, and other military pattern semi-autos should have zero problem firing 60 shots quickly and be ready for more.
As far as semi-auto vs. bolt action, semis can be fired slowly or rapidly depending on the operator's needs. I'm thinking some on this thead would be happy to have seen M1 Garands removed from WW2 US troops hands and replaced by 1903 Springfields. That'll make 'em shoot better, instead of spray and pray...
My concern is how reliable a lever gun is when it gets HOT. After 60 (or more) rounds of rapid-fire, not an unreasonable number of shots for an ambush or defense situation, will the lever gun still be feeding, firing, and ejecting reliably? Will the shooter still be able to hold onto it due to heat from the barrel? Will the precisely machined lever-action parts get hot, expand, and then not move so well or at all? ARs, AKs, Garands, M1A/M14s, FALs, and other military pattern semi-autos should have zero problem firing 60 shots quickly and be ready for more.
As far as semi-auto vs. bolt action, semis can be fired slowly or rapidly depending on the operator's needs. I'm thinking some on this thead would be happy to have seen M1 Garands removed from WW2 US troops hands and replaced by 1903 Springfields. That'll make 'em shoot better, instead of spray and pray...
Commissar Gribb
Member
well there you go
I guess a broken bottle or a good knife and the right circumstances is a good homeland defense rifle.
Because they can get you a gun from a JBT or similar badguy.
well- probably. But given the time frame that mausers were used and the weapons that were shooting back (mosins? garands? enfields?) along with the weapons that were coupled in (subguns, pistols, LMGs), and the ammo supply of the day you get a different picture. If you've got a buddy with an Mp40 behind you I think it might make your chances a little better with that K98k.
mustanger98
Member
This brings up a real good point- that with such a mix of weapons as we have in this country, we all have back-up. The boltgunner has semiauto support. The semiato guy or the automatic rifleman as sniper support. This is why semiauto guys shouldn't sneer at bolt/levergunners any more than a bolt/levergunner should look down his nose at a good semi-auto. The key to this situation is, as we've already observed, does the guy with the MP40 know how to use it as well as does the boltgunner know how to provide accurate aimed fire.
And don't count out an outfit made up of levergunners who are used to shooting Cowboy Action. That crowd will know how to lay down some fire. Get three or four squads rotating, firing while the other squad's reloading and the enemy has their hands full.
bogie
Member
I think the theory behind a lot of the folks who want semi-autos is that after they miss with the first shot, they can scare 'em to death with the rest of the magazine.
BTW, I own several semi-autos... But the bolt rifles are more accurate.
BTW, I own several semi-autos... But the bolt rifles are more accurate.
In a fighting situation, what advantage does a 30-30 lever-action rifle have over a basic, semi-auto AK-47 pattern rifle? none. You use the 30-30 because that's the best choice of what's available. If an AK anything is available, grab it instead.
As far as "groups" of cowboy shooting trained people, the weapon choice is limiting their tactics. Give them military semis and they don't have to operate in such a large group to be effective. Good shooters CAN adapt to whatever weapons are available, but why limit yourself from the start? Nostaglia is nice, but battles aren't nice, and bad decisions can get people and their families killed. choose wisely.
As far as "groups" of cowboy shooting trained people, the weapon choice is limiting their tactics. Give them military semis and they don't have to operate in such a large group to be effective. Good shooters CAN adapt to whatever weapons are available, but why limit yourself from the start? Nostaglia is nice, but battles aren't nice, and bad decisions can get people and their families killed. choose wisely.
cslinger
Member
Why are we arming up again? If any of the past SHTF situations has shown me(N.O., Riots in California, etc.) any weapon you are comfortable and capable with should do you just fine. An argument could be made that a break barrel double barrel shotgun would be just fine in most situations as typically the scum runs off when confronted with any kind of resistance.
Now could an argument be made for an ubertacticool semi auto with all the doodads, of course but would I feel completely undergunned with a thutty thutty lever, no not really.
I guess I am more of a realist in that I know that I am not going to pick fights and would most likely fight a completely defensive war so to speak.
Now if we are talking about fending off well trained military troops be they Chinese, ATF, Aliens or the infamous Blue Helmets, when then technically we are screwed. We are not trained as groups and are very loosely combined. Sure you might kill a few foes but you are going down with them.
All that being said I keep coming back to the old adage that in a practical SHTF situation have a gun........any gun. Ohhh and ammo of course.
Chris
Now could an argument be made for an ubertacticool semi auto with all the doodads, of course but would I feel completely undergunned with a thutty thutty lever, no not really.
I guess I am more of a realist in that I know that I am not going to pick fights and would most likely fight a completely defensive war so to speak.
Now if we are talking about fending off well trained military troops be they Chinese, ATF, Aliens or the infamous Blue Helmets, when then technically we are screwed. We are not trained as groups and are very loosely combined. Sure you might kill a few foes but you are going down with them.
All that being said I keep coming back to the old adage that in a practical SHTF situation have a gun........any gun. Ohhh and ammo of course.
Chris
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