Recommendation for 'Homeland Defense' rifle

[Warner]

cslinger wrote,

.... All that being said I keep coming back to the old adage that in a practical SHTF situation have a gun........any gun.

In your post you've also outlined just a scant few of the thousands upon thousands of all the variations of real situational factors like foe capability/friend capability/cover availability/concealment/terrain/structure(s) and vehicle(s) that one could face - and that's the short list. Among your examples, you've picked only a few of the easiest and most difficult scenarios one could face.

This manner of thinking may work to justify YOUR planning and preparation style, but not mine. I'd like to give myself an honest chance at effectively handling the other 95% of the situations that could and would occur somewhere between those extremes.

As the saying goes, I have no "crystal ball" nor would I hazard much of a guess as to how/when/where or why any future bad things could happen. Or even where I'd be or whom I'd be with.

But it seems prudent to have the capability, knowledge, equipment AND MINDSET available to cover as many bases as humanly possible.

And that style of planning all but mandates a rifle designed for fighting.


W

 

[cslinger]

Warner,

I agree 100% with you and I am one of those people lucky enough to have the income, brains, time etc. to have lots of firearms, lots of ammo, food, water etc. and plans or at least outlines of plans in place.

What I was trying to get at is that after something N.O. we are and will get lots of new folks who will come along looking for a defensive firearm that may not have any "interest" in firearms or the money or time to build up a serious social long arm or brace of firearms.

I just don't want these people to be pushed away by too much technical jargon, or feel that they need to spend thousands of dollars on hardware to protect themselves.

I truely believe that mindset, training and preparing are much more important then the hardware bought. Now if all hell broke loose I personally would be happy to have the "armory" that we have but I would not feel undergunned with a good lever or bolt gun either. Heck I wouldn't feel undergunned with a good multi purpose shotty.

Just my uneducated, low speed, high drag opinion and we all know what opinions are like

 

[Warner]

cslinger,

Understood.

I'm just not convinced that all those who choose a 9m/m carbine, a 30-30 lever or shotgun as their primary longarm for "all things bad" do so out of a lack of funds. And that way of thinking is often pervasive throughout the forum whenever serious issues like this arise.

And hey! This other side of you is very comforting.


W

 

[Thin Black Line]

.45Guy,

The Soviets themselves got rid of the SVT series because it was unreliable.

 

[Sewerman]

my 2 cents worth i have a closet full of fancy guns, i grew up toting a lee enfield, its still my favorite gun, ive never had to shoot a deer with it more than once and i still shoot it almost every weekend. the point being get good with something simple then when you break out the heavy hardwear you can really make it count. just about any gun beats the s#%t out of a rock and sharp stick.

 

[jAK-47]

With the Mauser and the Mosin you have excellent 250+ yard powerful weapons and CHEAP ammo. What you need now is a gun that will rapid fire many bullets with reasonable accuracy through a RELIABLE platform.

You cannot beat the VEPR for that in 7.62X39. It is a tad heavy but the reliability, capacity, cheap ammo, decent accuracy and knockdown power are worth it. In order to get a comparable gun that is 7 pounds you'd have to go with a Krebs KTR or Robinson XCR and they are both $1,000+. Neither one has the track record of the standard AK either.

There's nothing wrong with a "cheaper" AK for $350 or less either; they're all reliable even though some have trigger slap. You could get (10) 30 round mags and 1,000 rounds of ammo and still be under $500 for everything! Then all you need is a Kobra or even BSA cheapo scope!

IF they ever make 6.8 in quantity and the mags are reasonable, THAT is MY ultimate gun for the SHTF scenario. BUT, you need to have a LOT of ammo and mags for SHTF and 6.8 is the last thing I'd want right now because of cost and availability.

jAK-47

 

[Snark]

Thanks everyone for all the recommendations. Still haven't decieded exactly what I am going to get, but you have certainly given me alot to think about. Thanks.

 

[jAK-47]

Just noticed that you had requested a pic of the Krebs Custom 103K. This is mine, but I paid over $700 for it - worth every penny. I am looking at getting their KTR-03S for Christmas!

jAK-47

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

$500 budget?

That means NO AR's. FORGET doing a kit-gun. Kit guns are just that, kits. They shouldn't be trusted for a serious scenario.


For $500 or under, I'd find a used Arsenal or a Vepr. Next best is just any AK.


Might want to consider a CMP Garand for $550 or rack grade for $325. You can still find plenty of evil black-tip 30-06 armor piercing. That's a great hard hitting, fast loading rifle with range.

 

[jAK-47]

Might want to consider a CMP Garand for $550 or rack grade for $325. You can still find plenty of evil black-tip 30-06 armor piercing.

A poor man's 50 CAL (almost). I've been wondering about the need for stopping someone in a vehicle aimed at your home; 20-30 AK rounds would probably be more than enough but damn, you could damage a truck engine with those black-tips Probably damn expensive but you wouldn't need too many...

jAK-47

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Well, I don't know what 'Homeland Defense' includes. Does it mean a Red Dawn invasion? Does it mean a war against the government? I gather the requirements are greater than that of "shtf" which I opt for the AR-15.


If so, I need to be able to swiss-cheese armored personel carries, engines of their vehicles, I need to be able to use incindiary ammo against their fuel tanks used for their vehicles and helicopters.....

Not to mention, I need vest-busting power against personel out to any range I can see. I need to make 2 nice holes through their blue colored class III helmets. One in the front, one through the back.


The main beauty of the "black tip" is cover-denial. All of a sudden, 99% of everything in an urban or suburban area is nothing more than concealment rather than cover. Stand off range increases immensely as the first responding enemy will see holes go through the barriers that shield them.

 

[jAK-47]

Do they have a similar "Black-Tip" in .308? I did a cursory search for 30.06 to check out prices and availability but no luck.

Katrina and Rita made me think about the difference between them and 9/11. Although 9/11 was spectacular and deadly, it was isolated. People in a wing of the Pentagon and, obviously, the workers in the WTC were either killed or had to work somewhere else for a while or forever.

Katrina's damage is more widespread and, while less deadly, will cost a lot more to fix. 9/11 shook us up and it was designed more for a propaganda/recruiting tool. Katrina showed us what happens when there is a breakdown in our society. If you multiply Katrina by 20 or 30 you can see the value of stocking up on supplies and defensive items; you'd be on your own for weeks or even months before serious help arrived.

A "dirty" or real nuke would be pretty scary but would also be somewhat isolated. People only 100 miles away wouldn't feel the immediate threat; the prevailing winds could change that. IF the terrorists can get a quantity of deadly virus and the means to distribute it in multiple locations, then you'll see a REAL panic over a large area.

You can't SEE a virus. Think about people on public transportation with someone coughing or sneezing next to them. Would you go to work or to the mall or even outside with a major outbreak taking place? IF I were a terrorist, this is what I would do.

Can't find a virus? Have 10 or 20 "cells" made up of 5 terrorists each walk into crowded malls at the same time across the country and spray 100+ people with AK rounds. Maybe have a couple of dozen suicide bombers walk into WalMart at 1pm on a Saturday. How long would it be before you ran out for diapers again?

How safe would you feel and what would it do to you psychologically if they targeted 10 or 20 grammar schools? If you have kids and you heard on the news that a number of schools were attacked and there were 100s of dead children wouldn't you race to your child's school? Can you imagine the 10s of thousands of parents racing from home or work to their child's school? The phone lines would be USELESS. It would become a police state around all schools.

What I'm getting at is PANIC. It wouldn't take much. In NOLA we saw what happens when society breaks down. How many ran out of gas and were stranded in Texas?

Bin-Laden has NEVER failed on a promise. For the past two years he has been getting permission from head clerics to use a WMD on U.S. soil. He has warned us many times over the past two years to get out of Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. He has told us we would be punished. Recently he was challenged by other nut-jobs who use the Muslim religion as a shield; they questioned him attacking innocent non-military targets. His answer was that we are a democracy and WE are responsible for electing Bush so WE are a viable target.

Yeah, he's an evil b@stard but he usually does what he says. It ISN'T a question of whether there will be another 9/11, it's WHEN. And he has promised that it will eclipse the horrors of 9/11. We'll see - but it's best to be prepared to protect and defend yourself - and visit the Survival Threads! And if they capture or kill him tomorrow it won't really change a thing as far as us being attacked again.

jAK-47

 

[mustanger98]

Check out CMP.

http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/m1garand.htm

I like my M1 and better than any AK/SKS I ever had in my hands (and your mileage may vary). Prices vary.

Just plain M2 ball will punch through car bodies. AP is just more impressive and will do more damage on engine blocks.

Tell you my opinion... get two M1's. Get a Service Grade or Field Grade and keep it '06. Get a Field or Rack Grade and rebarrel to .308/7.62mm.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

Do they have a similar "Black-Tip" in .308? I did a cursory search for 30.06 to check out prices and availability but no luck.

No.
It's illegal to own because .308 is classified as handgun ammunition (due to it being chambered in the various single-shot pistols).

The black tip bullets can be pulled and loaded into .308s. However this is also illegal. It's not illegal to have black tip .30'06, nor to have the carbide-core bullets. Just don't load them into .308s until after the universe ends.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

I'm not at my home PC, but I do have a link to a place that sold pulled military surplus bullets. SOme of which were the AP rounds for 30-06. They could be loaded into 308. That would require breaking the law, and having a loading press and equipment. As components they are legal. But hey, if there is a revolution, SHTF, war etc....exactly who is going to care to prosecute you for AP 308?


A local store in my area has a whole case of the black tip. Dunno if it is authentic, will have to bring a magnet to the store next time

 

[jAK-47]

Good info - thanks. Man, if you don't know what you're doing you could end up in deep doo-doo on a "technicality".

jAK-47

 

[Marshall]

A lever gun or semi-auto that shares the same ammo as your sidearm is another option. A Deerefield .44mag Carbine, 1894, etc.

 

[sp40cal]

One shot one kill.

simple!!!!

sp40cal

 

[Zen21Tao]

I am a big fan of ARs (own 2 and currently building my 3rd) so I can’t bring myself to properly appreciate an AK. If money weren’t an issue I’d go with an AR in .50 Beowulf (great when you absolutely positive gotta kill something)

If you don’t mind a carbine then how about a Hi-point 9mm carbine? They only run about $200 and gun grabbers hate them (makes it money well spent in my opinion).

You also could consider Cetme? Last I heard they were running around $350-$400. Not too bad for a .308 semi-auto

If you want something in an AK you also have the option of one in 5.45x39 or .223 instead of 7.62 for around $330 (AIM Surplus) or a High Cap. Romanian AK for around $275 (Sarco). Also, you could go for an SKS for around $175 and add aftermarket stock and pistol grip.

Personally, I would save up an extra $100 and go for a decent AR. Either an Oly Arms plinker or a Model 1 kit on a Stag receiver (that’s the receiver I just built). I don’t know why the complaints about AR kits. The lowers are EXTREMELY easy to build and the upper half will come already completed (putting barrel on upper receiver is the hardest part).
Also, check gunbroker. They might have some ARs in your price range.

 

[JShirley]

Oh, boy.

America ain't a rifleman's country anymore.

It never was. "The Myth of the American Rifleman". Even back at the beginning, as the British marched back to Boston from Lexington and Concord, the Americans fired an estimated 250,000 shots or more at them. IIRC, British casualties were 90; American casualties were 60, all from friendly fire. (If you just do a web search on this, you'll come up with a lot of misinformation, including that the British fired upon the Americans at Lexington Green. THIS DID
NOT HAPPEN. After "the shot heard 'round the world" was fired, the British regulars performed an unauthorized bayonet charge, driving the Colonials from the field.)*


John


*Information from Hubert van Tuyll, ASU History Dept

 

[Dienekes]

This can be easily beaten to death to no avail. The high-end gee-whiz stuff is nice, but not hardly crucial. Not a thing wrong with the M1, M1A, or a decent scoped bolt gun, all in .30 cal.

OTOH an awful lot can be accomplished with a Model 870 or an SKS--both of which are very affordable, common, and appropriate to the infrequent shooter.

I do know that my SKS is a lot closer to hand in my pickup than the M1A is in the gun safe.

 

[VG]

I already own a Mauser and a Mosin-Nagant, plus a ruger 10/22 and a few handguns. But now I need to fill in the niche for 'Homeland Defense'.

Remington 870 - pump shotgun available in many configurations for less than $300 new - some models a little over 200. Six million served. The most popular HD model is a 7 round 12 ga with 18.5" barrel. The 20 ga youth model is also popular due to lower cost and recoil.

 

[lee n. field]

$500. Don't forget that a "homeland defense rifle" isn't any good without ammunition.

SKS, bunch of stripper clips, and as much ammo as you can buy with what's left. Maybe an AIM "shooter grade" for spare parts.

 

[Zen21Tao]

OTOH an awful lot can be accomplished with a Model 870 or an SKS--both of which are very affordable, common, and appropriate to the infrequent shooter.

(regarding the SKS) Like pissing off liberals by owning one. This makes the $150 price tag money well spent in its own right.

 

[Dr.Rob]

What ever rifle you get make sure you get the biggest boat-tail HOLLOW POINT bullets you can find as these make all the difference in the world.

Can't say I agree here... most 'hollow point' rifle ammunition isn't designed to expand... while boat tails definitely stabilize a bullet in flight this has nothing to do with them being more lethal.

Nation of riflemen

You have to admit, fewer folks are gowing up shooting rifles.

Quality made assault rifle

I'm pretty sure I'd count on my commie made 'by peasents for peasents' rifle to function in bad weather... because it's been out in bad weather before.

Hit The Gym

Sure if I had $3k laying around I'd pick up a semi-auto BAR cuz only a wussy carries a rifle that weighs less than 15 pounds and shoots pellets that wouldn't kill a poodle.

all in fun kids... but I do have a point.

Whatever you pick, be it a .22 or a .50 cal be sure to shoot it a lot, and not just off a bench someplace. Take it out 'in the woods' in bad weather, hunt with it. You'll be a better 'rifleman' for it.