Remington Rand 1911 with no SN

[rdmercer]

Last month I purchased a WW2 vintage Remington Rand 1911 for $650 which I thought was quite a buy. I bought it from the dealer with the number on the barrel because there was no serial no. on the right side of the frame. And there is no information like 'Property of US Government. It is 99% bluing and it has no lanyard. I have run 80 rnds thru it with no problems. Grips are plastic. There is a YouTube video entitled Lunch Box 1911 which describes Remington Rands similar to mine except they have the "Property of US Government" stamp and the lanyard but no SN. These were guns brought home by RR workers at the end of the work shift in their lunchboxes that were discarded as having flaws. Can anyone tell me what I have and maybe what it is worth? Thanks!!

 

[burrhead]

If the receiver truly has no serial number, what you have is a federal offense that may be worth some prison time. All firearms produced after 1968 MUST have a serial number on what the Gov't deems the "serialized part". Generally, and in particular to a 1911, that means the receiver. A number on the barrel, slide, wherever won't get it. Given what you've wrote, I doubt you can prove the receiver was made before '68.

If it we're me, I'd delete this thread, stay mum and contact an attorney that knows something about federal firearms law.

 

[gunlaw]

Remington Rand 1911's were produced well before 1968. If I remember my history correctly WWII ended in 1945. I have seen a few lunch box guns. They are usually priced in the 600- 700 range.

 

[burrhead]

Remington Rand 1911's were produced well before 1968.

Yes they were. Now prove that an RR frame.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The Government has to prove it isn't -- they have the burden of proof in criminal trials.

 

[burrhead]

Actually no. I don't know about this particular issue but there are several instances in the law that require an affirmative defense. Think of self defense; the burden of proof is on the defendant to prove their claim.

 

[macgrumpy]

Since Remington only made 1911s during WWII I'd say it's pretty easy to make the case that the pistol was built before 1968.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Actually no. I don't know about this particular issue but there are several instances in the law that require an affirmative defense. Think of self defense; the burden of proof is on the defendant to prove their claim.

And do you think the owner of this gun would claim self-defense?

 

[burrhead]

Remington only made 1911s during WWI; we're talking about a Remington Rand. Different companies. Anyway, I've never seen a Remington Rand with the manufacturer's name stamped on the receiver. The slide doesn't count.

 

[burrhead]

And do you think the owner of this gun would claim self-defense?

He could be arrested for an illegal firearm because, prima facie, it is. I suspect the burden would be on him to prove it's a legal gun. Like I said, how do you PROVE the frame was made pre '68.

If it were me, at the least I'd go back to the dealer and quietly get rid of it.

 

[macgrumpy]

Remington Rand, you know damn well what I was referring to, you're just being argumentative. Since your seem to want to be an expert and you know that Remington RAND only stamped the slide with their company name I'm sure that in a court it would be easy to find and expert that will testify to that fact. And if it's also equally simple to find a real expert that knows that Remington Rand is well known to have had guns sneak out of the plant without serial numbers on the frame.

Here is one example of a documented case

http://www.model1911a1.com/Remington.htm

 

[burrhead]

The OP asked for some advice about what he had and value. I gave an honest answer. I'm not picking nits but, I've spent several years in courtrooms and seen how much money can be spent by the state and defense. A $650 gun isn't worth it.

 

[MICHAEL T]

shoot it and enjoy it . That what made for.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Look under the grip.

My "sterile" Remington Rand had the serial number under the right grip. Here are three of the seven digits.

Could be back in the day someone felt uneasy about the GI markings and reapplied the serial number there after removing all the other stuff.. Could be it came that way. In any case, I bought it a very long time ago without a serial number showing and found it after I removed the grips.

I cut my Pachmayrs down to expose it now.

Todd.

 

[tark]

Burrhead, any 1911 expert could testify in court that that frame IS a RR and that they were all made before 1968. It's obviously a stolen, lunch box gun, but it isn't illegal to possess.

Also, if it ever HAD a serial # and that # was removed, it would be rather obvious to a trained eye. If you removed that much metal in the serial# area, it's going to leave a depression, that is glaringly obvious. If you surface grind the entire right side of the frame, to ensure there is no depression, THAT will also be glaringly obvious.

I have done both. In the early year's, when Les was just getting started, I stamped the serial #s BY HAND I screwed a few up and and, in trying the above methods, wrecked a few frames before I got it right.

Les was not happy. If any of you know Les Baer....you know that that is not good....

 

[burrhead]

Burrhead, any 1911 expert could testify in court that that frame IS a RR and that they were all made before 1968.

I agree; absolutely true. Let's break that down a bit in case you haven't had much experience with expert witnesses.

Expect to pay $3-500 per hour plus transportation and per diem. It's not unusual for there to be separate rates for preparing a pretrial report for the defense attorney and for testifying at trial. Lets call it a low of $3k to who knows for an expert. That all assumes it is a RR frame. Neither you nor I know what the frame is.

Attorneys are sort of expensive. If you don't believe me just ask 'em. An arrest with bond, lawyer, expert and stress is something to be avoided. One NEVER wants to be entered in the "system".

All that said, it's unlikely the OP would ever have a problem. But, if he were pulled over for a traffic violation that escalated (happens everyday) and the officer is a by-the-book, just having-a-bad-day kinda guy, it could all go bad.

I'm a 64 year old Judge, pretty much supportive of LEOs, and pretty easy going but average people get jammed up every day. The OP MAY be legal and MAY never have a problem but, if the odds go against him it could end up costing him a lot of time, money, and heartburn. I do my best to stay out of the system and advise others to do the same.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[rdmercer]

I filled out the 4473 form at the FFL's gun shop and he used the number on the barrel. The left side of the slide says Remington Rand Inc. Syracuse New York. The only marking on the receiver is on the right side above and slightly behind the grip and it is very faint but it is a wheel with little nubs on the outside of the wheel. And the right side of the receiver is very smooth and there has been no scrubbing or removal of any marks or numbers. And no marks or numbers can be found beneath the grips. I have no way of posting pictures.

 

[highlander 5]

Remington Rand was a company best known for typewriters. I had a R-R 45 ages ago that was "liberated" and AFAIK there was no serial number on it. Property of the U.S. Government was the only writing on the frame.

 

[Ed Ames]

Any reason not to have the number from the barrel stamped on the frame and not worry about it?

That is, as far as the paperwork is concerned, the serial number.

 

[jmr40]

I'm no lawyer, but there are several here who moderate. Hopefully one will offer his opinion. But I don't see anyone making an issue over a 70 year old gun not having a "normal" SN when they weren't required at the time of manufacture.

 

[burrhead]

Here's a good site for identifying the RR variations.

http://www.model1911a1.com/Remington.htm

 

[Hacker15E]

Isn't the more simple answer here that it is not an actual Rem Rand frame?

 

[45_auto]

All firearms produced after 1968 MUST have a serial number on what the Gov't deems the "serialized part".

Incorrect. Only firearms produced by a LICENSED firearms manufacturer (FFL holder) must have a serial number and manufacturer markings. A homemade firearm, such as one made by an individual using an 80% receiver, is NOT required to have a serial number or any other type of identification. As long as you do not hold an FFL and are not engaged in manufacturing firearms "as a business" (as determined by the ATF) you are not required to mark any firearms you build. These perfectly legal unmarked firearms are what created the "ghost gun" scenarios you see in the news these days.

"Ghost gun" article here:

https://www.thetrace.org/2015/10/ghost-gun-lower-receiver-california/

80% 1911 receiver examples here:

https://1911builders.com/collections/80-kits

ATF regulations (478.92) for firearm markings are here. Note that they apply ONLY to licensed manufacturers:

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3&idno=27#se27.3.478_192

§478.92 How must licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms, armor piercing ammunition, and large capacity ammunition feeding devices?

(a)(1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:

 

[rklessdriver]

So it has the Ordance stamp on the right side at the rear.

That tells you or rather anyone that knows about USGI issue firearms alot.

What about markings on the left side of the frame? What inspector initials? Should be right behind the slide stop above the magazine release.

I'm gonna tell you straight out that 99.9% claimed "Lunch Box" USGI pistols are fakes made from issue pistols that their owners pilfered from the Govt and didn't want to be caught with, so they filed, machined the SN and US Property marks off.

The ATF are not people to fool around with. They are very judicious in the prosecution of people who run a foul to Federal firearms law. If that pistol of yours ever had a SN they can find it, even after it was removed.

So, I would recommend that you never carry that pistol or put your self in a position to have it examined by LE.
Will

 

[jrmiddleton425]

I'm going to agree with several previous posts...to be legal without a serial number, you have to prove that THIS pistol NEVER HAD a serial number pre-1968.