Remington Rand 1911 with no SN

[45_auto]

I'm going to agree with several previous posts...to be legal without a serial number, you have to prove that THIS pistol NEVER HAD a serial number pre-1968.

And you would be just as incorrect as they are. To be illegal without a serial number, someone would have to prove that THIS pistol was manufactured by a licensed FFL POST-1968. It's perfectly legal otherwise.

Once again, the legal requirements to mark a firearm are defined in 27 CFR 478.92.

You can read it here:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.92

 

[Tirod]

Much ado about nothing, guys. Pre 68, no serial numbers required, and guess what, millions were made. MILLIONS.

Serial numbers were a measure of inventory control that the Department of War required to keep an idea of what was theirs. There were NO legal requirements until 1968.

The same thing happened in 1954, when automobiles were required to have a vehicle identification number. Prior to that, millions were made with no VIN whatsoever. If they had anything it was whatever number the maker preferred for their own purposes. Not Uncle Sam. It's no big deal to the DOT and no number on a pistol pre'68 is no big deal to the ATF.

Arguing that somebody would have to defend themselves in court over this particular gun out of thousands of other others which are already documented to exist and even given a name - "lunch box 1911" - goes to show the number of cases already prosecuted over it.

Cite them.

Otherwise it's just chest thumping bravado on the internet.

One 1911 with no serial number in a sea of millions of other firearms with no serial numbers isn't worth the time for a prosecutor to even read up on a forum about.

Nice pistol. If I found one like that for $650 I suspect I would barely survive being trampled by the horde of THR members who would have a fist full of cash yelling "TAKE MY MONEY!"

 

[Jim Watson]

True, before GCA 1968, it was not required for a manufacturer to serial number a gun. There are myriads of cheap guns legally lacking serial numbers.

BUT: It is illegal to REMOVE or alter the serial number of any numbered gun of any vintage. It is illegal to POSSESS a gun of any vintage with deleted or altered serial number.

I have seen some very nicely refinished "scrubbed" guns, you cannot go by smooth metal.

The OP's dealer screwed up.
Just out of curiosity, does the "number on the barrel" happen to start 779----?

I doubt the feds will come calling, but that is a hot gun.

 

[AlexanderA]

Any reason not to have the number from the barrel stamped on the frame and not worry about it?

The number on the barrel (on GI replacement barrels) is a drawing number, not a serial number. There are probably thousands of barrels with the same number.

 

[AlexanderA]

Isn't the more simple answer here that it is not an actual Rem Rand frame?

Exactly.

In 1967, I purchased what I thought was a Remington-Rand 1911. It had the proper Remington-Rand markings on the slide, but the frame had no markings except for a faint, but legible, serial number. At the time, not knowing much about GI .45's, I just accepted that it was a Remington-Rand gun.

Later, I researched the serial number and discovered that it was in the Colt commercial range, but after the last known commercial Colt 1911 produced at the beginning of WW2, and before commercial production resumed after WW2. Wow! I thought I had a rarity!

Still later, in talking to some experts, it turned out that this was not a Colt frame at all. Most likely, this was an aftermarket frame, produced in the Philippines and imported in the late 1950's or early 60's. Some of these had cleverly devised serial numbers in the "nonexistent" Colt range, and some had no serial numbers or other markings at all! (Serial numbers were not required until the Gun Control Act of 1968.)

Someone had used this Philippine-made frame and assembled a gun using surplus GI parts, including a Remington-Rand slide.

Something like this may be the case with the OP's gun. The only thing that would argue against this theory is the faint "ordnance wheel" stamping on the frame. Could the Filipinos have faked that? I don't know.

 

[ljnowell]

He could be arrested for an illegal firearm because, prima facie, it is. I suspect the burden would be on him to prove it's a legal gun. Like I said, how do you PROVE the frame was made pre '68.

If it were me, at the least I'd go back to the dealer and quietly get rid of it.

Do you not realize how many firearms are out there with no serial number? Bits not rare or uncommon, it's seen everyday across America in gun shops. The atf is used to it and no one freaks out.

You are radically over reacting. It's really, really easy for the government to tell of a firearm was made without a serial number or if it had a serial number removed. If there are no dates on the gun them they can't prove that it was made after 1968. That burden is on them, not the owner.

 

[ljnowell]

True, before GCA 1968, it was not required for a manufacturer to serial number a gun. There are myriads of cheap guns legally lacking serial numbers.



BUT: It is illegal to REMOVE or alter the serial number of any numbered gun of any vintage. It is illegal to POSSESS a gun of any vintage with deleted or altered serial number.



I have seen some very nicely refinished "scrubbed" guns, you cannot go by smooth metal.



The OP's dealer screwed up.

Just out of curiosity, does the "number on the barrel" happen to start 779----?



I doubt the feds will come calling, but that is a hot gun.

Let's hear the proof you have that the gun is "hot?"

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I can't stand it when someone comes here, asks a simple question and then gets hit with all kinds of very inaccurate information by people acting like they know the law but really have no idea.

On more than one occasion I have LEGALLY bought a gun from an FFL where the letters "NSN" we're put in the spot in the paperwork where the serial number goes.

 

[Jim Watson]

Me, too, but it was not USGI which is ALL serialized.

Let's hear the proof you have that the gun is "hot?"

The proof is in the pudding.
If the serial number was removed, simple possession is illegal, they don't have to prove you did it to establish a crime.
If you contend that it is a "lunchbox gun" or a never serialized pre-68, or a homebrew, you would get to pay the lawyer to tell the court about it.

I doubt there are many if any cases being prosecuted. But that just means a lot of pilfering grandpas have gotten away with theft of government property and good luck to the heirs.

We have not yet heard about "the number on the barrel" which an ignorant or greedy dealer registered the gun by.

 

[jrmiddleton425]

The only marking on the receiver is on the right side above and slightly behind the grip and it is very faint but it is a wheel with little nubs on the outside of the wheel.

The "wheel with little nubs on the outside of the wheel" are ordnance cannons. This was applied AFTER government acceptance. It SHOULD have at least a "United States Property" stamp. May or may not have a serial number, because replacement frames that have no serial number DO exist.

 

[Old Fuff]

I have no intention of getting into this catfight, but will point out they're a number of ways to determine if the frame is a Remington-Rand, made during World War Two, and if so, property and serial number markings have been removed.

If the pistol (and or) frame was being examined one of the first things to be checked should be the side-to-side width of the frame in the area where the markings are supposed to be. If this dimension was noticeably less then .757" - .762" as called for in official government blueprints the next step would be to try and recover the apparently missing information. The former is easy to do, while the latter is more difficult and somewhat destructive.

I suggest that the pistol's current owner find someone with a micrometer or calipers.

 

[ljnowell]

Me, too, but it was not USGI which is ALL serialized.







The proof is in the pudding.

If the serial number was removed, simple possession is illegal, they don't have to prove you did it to establish a crime.

If you contend that it is a "lunchbox gun" or a never serialized pre-68, or a homebrew, you would get to pay the lawyer to tell the court about it.



I doubt there are many if any cases being prosecuted. But that just means a lot of pilfering grandpas have gotten away with theft of government property and good luck to the heirs.



We have not yet heard about "the number on the barrel" which an ignorant or greedy dealer registered the gun by.

Do you not realize how many firearms are out there, and completely legal? Bits the governments job to prove it was made after 1968 IF they wanted to.

 

[Jim Watson]

I'll say it again, the year made has nothing to do with the illegality of a removed serial.

I have seen people to argue "antique" on a scrubbed SAA or S&W top break.
But I sure wouldn't buy one.

 

[burrhead]

I find it interesting that some posters say "the Gov't gotta prove it". Maybe, maybe not but, let's say that's true. The thing that's not mentioned is the attorney with Federal criminal trial experience that is sitting next to the defendant. They are the opposite of free. I'll take a WAG and say, if everything is short and sweet, a dismissal before trial, etc., you're looking at $5-10K. I donno, I could afford it but I sure wouldn't like it. As I posted before, one should do their best to avoid EVER going into the system.

 

[ljnowell]

I'll say it again, the year made has nothing to do with the illegality of a removed serial.

I have seen people to argue "antique" on a scrubbed SAA or S&W top break.
But I sure wouldn't buy one.

I'll say it again, you have no idea that a serial ever existed. Nada. Zip. It can be checked by the right people, but you, here on the internet, have no idea. You are merely spitting out what ifs and conjecture.

Someone has to PROVE that gun had a serial number. That burden of proof would lie on whoever wants to press charges. The whole concept is extremely unlikely to ever happen. They won't simply cuff him for possessing the gun.

 

[ljnowell]

I find it interesting that some posters say "the Gov't gotta prove it". Maybe, maybe not but, let's say that's true. The thing that's not mentioned is the attorney with Federal criminal trial experience that is sitting next to the defendant. They are the opposite of free. I'll take a WAG and say, if everything is short and sweet, a dismissal before trial, etc., you're looking at $5-10K. I donno, I could afford it but I sure wouldn't like it. As I posted before, one should do their best to avoid EVER going into the system.

No, there is no maybe, they do in fact have to prove it. That's a process that can be done. The truth is that it's not an issue. Guns like this are bought and sold legally in gunshops everyday.

You guys are making a huge deal out of a non issue.

 

[243winxb]

ATF Publication 3312.13

• Serial Number: A firearm cannot be traced without a serial number.
However, the serial number has to be accompanied by the model
name and the name of the manufacturer or importer. Serial numbers
are not issued by ATF. Duplication of numbers is common between
manufacturers and importers and many firearms manufactured prior to
1968 were not marked with a serial number at all.
Where a serial number is present, always include any letter prefix,
suffix, code numbers, or letters over that serial number. Some firearms
will bear more than one string of letters and numbers. Always take
the serial number from the frame or receiver. If unsure of the correct
serial number, note each one and specify its location on the firearm.

When serial numbers have been removed, there are methods to recover/read said serial number. Just watch CSI on tv to find out how. LOL

 

[Jim K]

Guns that never had a serial number are bought and sold every day. (I have two in front of me right now!)

Guns which had a serial number which has been removed are also bought and sold every day. The difference is that the latter are illegal and the owner can go to jail. No evidence needed - the possession of the gun is the only evidence needed.

Jim

 

[243winxb]

Toolmark identification

THE HISTORY OF FIREARM
AND TOOLMARK IDENTIFICATION. http://www.firearmsid.com/A_historyoffirearmsID.htm I would guess there is a way to recover a serial number that has been removed. Google >

Restoration of Firearm Serial Numbers

 

[243winxb]

restorative techniques of serial numbers in firearms

http://www.nist.gov/forensics/upload/Restoration-of-Firearm-Serial-Numbers-Using-Electron-Backscatter-Diffraction.pdf restorative techniques of serial numbers in firearms.

In the case of a stamped serial number,
deformation of the metallic crystal structure
remains below the surface even when the
imprint is no longer visible.

A criminal would
therefore have to remove about 760 *m of
material (140 *m imprint, 520 *m subsurface
damage) to render a serial
number undetectable by EBSD.

Laser engraved serial
numbers are difficult
to restore. EBSD can
detect changes in the
material structure
induced by the laser.

 

[burrhead]

"No, there is no maybe, they do in fact have to prove it."

Again, not necessarily. I don’t know where you got your law degree but I would think you’d be familiar of all the instances that require an affirmative defense. Federal law is outside of my expertise but this may be one of those instances.

Regardless, if the average LEO finds a person in possession of a pistol without a serial number, they are not likely to say “this must be a lunch box gun. I’m sorry sir, please go on your way”. No, the LEO is very likely to cuff and stuff. His job is done for the moment. Now one of three things will occur. The actor is PRed, posts bond, or sits in jail until the prosecutor makes a decision. If the prosecutor pursues charges the “fun” begins.

It doesn’t matter if the actor is innocent. He is in for a ride at that point. I’ve been around this game for a long time and what I’ve been saying since the beginning of this thread is that it isn’t worth the risk.

That’s it; I’m out.

 

[ljnowell]

Guns that never had a serial number are bought and sold every day. (I have two in front of me right now!)



Guns which had a serial number which has been removed are also bought and sold every day. The difference is that the latter are illegal and the owner can go to jail. No evidence needed - the possession of the gun is the only evidence needed.



Jim

That has been established, repeatedly. You're implying that this gun will get him in trouble. So, tell us how you know that it's an illegal gun with a modified serial number?

You don't.

 

[ljnowell]

"No, there is no maybe, they do in fact have to prove it."

Again, not necessarily. I don’t know where you got your law degree but I would think you’d be familiar of all the instances that require an affirmative defense. Federal law is outside of my expertise but this may be one of those instances.

Regardless, if the average LEO finds a person in possession of a pistol without a serial number, they are not likely to say “this must be a lunch box gun. I’m sorry sir, please go on your way”. No, the LEO is very likely to cuff and stuff. His job is done for the moment. Now one of three things will occur. The actor is PRed, posts bond, or sits in jail until the prosecutor makes a decision. If the prosecutor pursues charges the “fun” begins.

It doesn’t matter if the actor is innocent. He is in for a ride at that point. I’ve been around this game for a long time and what I’ve been saying since the beginning of this thread is that it isn’t worth the risk.

That’s it; I’m out.

Really? Please tell is how many people are "stuffed and cuffed" each year for legal firearms that don't have a serial number? There are certainly a lot of them out there and for some reason, contrary to your opinion, people aren't getting "cuffed and stuffed" for them at all.

It could be, maybe, possibly, that you and one other poster are greatly blowing things out of proportion.

 

[Jim Watson]

I guess I am the "one other" but to quote a usually reliable source (ME!) "I doubt the feds will come calling."

Should such a gun come to official notice, and you have the OP's paper trail back to a dealer so ignorant as to put a number off the barrel down as the serial number, the feds may well just raise the frame number, declare it contraband, confiscate it, and you are only out $650. Or they may find no number and hand it back. I bet the dealer would catch some flak, either way.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm sitting here wondering how this thread about the price of a handgun turned into a thread about that gun having its serial number removed when no one ever said it was removed. I agree much is being made about nothing. Just unreal!!!