Remington Rand 1911 with no SN

[Old Fuff]

The only significance of the number on the barrel is that it couldn't be original to the pistol because it wasn't made until Remington-Rand had ceased production. They were made to facilitate refurbishing of previously used military 1911 and 1911A1 pistols. It is quite possible that such barrels will be found in Remington-Rand pistols that were refurbished during or after WW2, Korean and Viet Nam war periods; but it is highly unlikely that the pistol would have then left the arsenal without government property markings and a serial number. It is far more likely that someone bought the slide, barrel, and other parts as military surplus - and then built a pistol on either an after-market frame that was unmarked, or a genuine frame that had the markings removed.

The only non-destructive ways that I know of to determine if the frame was ever numbered is to either measure the frame's width in the area where the markings would be (if they ever existed) to see if the dimension is less then that specified in my earlier post, which would strongly suggest that something had been filed off, or perhaps X-Ray the area which might - or might not show something.

Also keep in mind that most later Remington-Rand and all government refurbished pistols were Parkerized, not blued.

 

[Acera]

So Old Fuff, you suggesting that someone tried to fake a lunch box pistol at one time in this case? Not unusual for someone to try and fake a gun to appear more valuable and increase its sale price to an unwary buyer. Also, not accusing the most recent seller of trying to scam this buyer, but that might be the back story on this pistol.



.

 

[reddog81]

Like others have mentioned you should probably just leave the gun as is. If you go to sell it there might be a question regarding what happened to the serial number or maybe not. Adding a serial number is just going to make the whole issue stand out even more than no serial number.

I have seen numerous times where FFL's use incorrect numbers to record serial numbers even when the serial number is present and obvious. I have considered notifying the FFL so he can correct his records, but have always figured it was just cause more problems for me in the long run. Usually FFL's think they are infallible and some lowly customer would never know more than them. I bet more than 20% of my Curio and Relics or older guns have the wrong serial number recorded by either the shipping FFL or the receiving FFL.

 

[Old Fuff]

So Old Fuff, you suggesting that someone tried to fake a lunch box pistol at one time in this case?

No. I wouldn't do so without actually inspecting the pistol.

This thread is one that's based on 100% speculation. Without actual in-hand examination it's impossible to draw any firm conclusions. I can say on the basis of personal experience that following World War Two and then again the Korean and Viet Nam Wars, the military services sold literally tons of surplus small arms parts, but to my knowledge this didn't include serviceable receiver's or frames - and certainly none without serial numbers. In a very small instances they did remove the original serial number for various reasons, but always replaced it with a new one.

Anyway, it was a popular pastime in some circles to buy a full set of parts, less the frame, and then using an aftermarket frame build up a gun. Some of those frames, that were semi-finished - might have not been serial numbered. But after 1968 this came to a quick halt!

As some have pointed out, if the BATF&E or other law enforcement agencies became involved and the matter proceeded to legal charges, it would be incumbent on them to prove that the required serial number had existed and then been illegally removed. The problem for the pistol's current owner is that if they were successful in doing so he would be in some very hot water.

 

[Acera]

Some of those frames, that were semi-finished - might have not been serial numbered. But after 1968 this came to a quick halt!

Not sure about that, I can go buy an semi-finished 80% 1911 frame today with no serial number and legally build a working pistol from it.


That would be a completely legal handgun where I live (in the free state of Texas) without any markings whatsoever.

However, if I were to sell it without a serial number, manufacturer name, etc. I would cross the line.


Or are you saying that no unfinished, un-serialized frames have ever walked out of manufacturing companies production lines, under less than legal circumstances, without the knowledge of the management since 1968???



https://1911builders.com/collections/4140-steel-kits


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[Jim Watson]

Any attempt to say this is not a contraband gun due to deleted serial number must account for the OP's post #17:

"only marking on the receiver is on the right side above and slightly behind the grip and it is very faint but it is a wheel with little nubs on the outside of the wheel."

That is a reasonable layman's description of the Ordinance Department symbol stamp, which was the FINAL inspection mark from 1942 to 1945 on all but US&S guns.
Could the final inspector miss a lack of proper markings and still stamp it accepted?
Maybe so, but if I were the BATman, it would sure make me reach for the Magnaflux.

 

[Old Fuff]

This thread is one that's based on 100% speculation. Without actual in-hand examination it's impossible to draw any firm conclusions.

An observation that should be obvious. However my real concern is...

As some have pointed out, if the BATF&E or other law enforcement agencies became involved and the matter proceeded to legal charges, it would be incumbent on them to prove that the required serial number had existed and then been illegally removed. The problem for the pistol's current owner is that if they were successful in doing so he would be in some very hot water.

 

[Jim Watson]

If they try to raise a serial number and fail, you still get to pay the lawyer.

 

[Old Fuff]

As a practical matter, I think most forensic laboratories would start by measuring the width of the frame to see if they could find any indication metal had been filed off. They might also try non-destructive X-Ray in a search for evidence. After that they might, or might not use more intrusive/destructive techniques. Unless they're was more then meets the eye, charges wouldn't be filed until they had solid evidence to back it up.

This is another example where the gun owner can be hung out to dry for nothing more then having possession - if they're was a serial number that was altered or obliterated, and such can be proven.

 

[Jim Watson]

You all sound like a bunch of defense lawyers trying to convert a smidgen of uncertainty into a "reasonable doubt." I doubt the matter will ever come to court but you have mapped out the course of the case.

That for the OP.

The dealer would be sunk. Registering a gun sale by the blueprint number of a readily replaceable part is way out of policy.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

What a waste of bandwidth. All the,oPen wanted to know,was a price and somehow 4 pages of BS showed up. Totally amazing it is...

 

[Ibmikey]

Back in post number fifty--something I suggested the barrel was the drawing or control number. Any FFL holder should know before selling the pistol that a call to ATF concerning the number and location would have ended the confusion right there. " I would not have bought it in the first place" was written some posts back and sums up the entire situation. A trip to the Dealer who sold the weapon and return of payment is the only intelligent conclusion to draw.

 

[Jim Watson]

Arch: Yes, it could have been settled a lot sooner. The value is negative. He bought a gun which is at best doubtful and possibly (likely in my opinion) illegal.

Ib: The OP confirmed that the number on the barrel (and papers) is indeed the part number.

 

[Old Fuff]

What a waste of bandwidth. All the,oPen wanted to know,was a price and somehow 4 pages of BS showed up. Totally amazing it is...

The value of any thread is what you take away from it. Sometimes the accumulated knowledge can be considerable. Sometimes it's nothing.

Whichever it is, is completely up to you.

 

[tark]

And then you run into a mess like this. Too many serial #s. Bought it at Gander Mountain. The actual # , and the one original to the gun, was the bottom one, that's the one on the 4473. It is still clearly legible. If not, I would not have bought it.

 

[tark]

OK, the # on the right. Hopefully my computer wizard son can tell me why mine is always posting pics every which way but right side up.

 

[FROGO207]

I should have retrieved the bag of popcorn before opening this one up though. In the future somebody looking at buying a "lunchbox" special will at least have food for thought. AND I will add that I possess several pre 68 firearms that NEVER had any serial number on them. Mostly inexpensive .22 rifles and single shot shotguns though.

 

[Gordon]

I was called by a son of a friend whose mother and father died at home within a couple of days 25 years ago . He found several fire arms, some loaded and wanted me to unload and give him an appraisal. The loaded ones were a Colt .25, a High standard Sentennial snub and a M2 .30 Carbine. The M2 was unique because there was NO serial number or Govt. Stamps on the Winchester made frame and most of the parts. He told me his mom worked on an "assembly line" putting together carbines (?) in 1943 at Fort Ord Calif. Obviously this one came home with her. I told him it was an NFA item and as it was after 1986 it was contraband. I have no idea of the disposition and really did not know the somewhat affluent Pebble Beach family. So lunch box guns do exist. But other than Destructive Devices and NFA items WW2 stuff is not required to be serialized and I am unaware of anyone ever being prosecuted for the "goverment Property stamp " on them.

 

[Onmilo]

What a waste of bandwidth. All the,oPen wanted to know,was a price and somehow 4 pages of BS showed up. Totally amazing it is...

I have a car.
It says "Mustang" on the back and there are no other markings except the steering wheel says "Ford"
What is my car worth?

 

[Jim Watson]

WW2 stuff is not required to be serialized

I would wager that serialization was required in the contracts to manufacturers.
And, once serialized, it is illegal to remove the number.

 

[Ibmikey]

Now the ball is bouncing all over, many .22's and cheap shotguns did not and were not required to have serial numbers until ( i believe thr date is correct) 1968. At that time a change by ATF required all commercial firearms be serialized. A 1911 semi automatic pistol made under Government contract ( All Remington Rand pistols were) was specificed to have a serial on the frame...not the barrel.....the dealer was remiss or just plain ignorant of firearms to possess and/or sell such an item. It seems to me the OP has sufficient information to decide to possess or return for a refund, the dealer has the choice of retaining, reselling or turning into ATF....the most logical choice.

 

[Jim Watson]

I agree.
Other possibilities mentioned above to legalize the gun include
A pre-68 aftermarket frame not required to be numbered. But I don't know of any.
A "lunchbox" frame stolen before numbering. But there is that pesky inspector's stamp.
A recently assembled "80%" kit. But aren't those supposed to be numbered if sold?

All highly unlikely.
I would not touch it with a fork.

 

[Old Fuff]

I would wager that serialization was required in the contracts to manufacturers.

And, once serialized, it is illegal to remove the number.

The one thing that military services around the world have in common is that they want to be able to inventory everything that isn't expendable. In this country you will find serial numbers on handguns going back well before the Civil War.

 

[RecoilRob]

Well...I for one have found this thread VERY interesting! And I feel bad for the OP being in the situation he finds himself. Has a nice gun that keeping and enjoying likely won't create any problems at all...but there is this very small chance that if the stars align improperly that it could be a BIG problem to deal with.

Knowing what we know now...I'd have to opine that a trip back to the FFL with this whole thread worth of information might lead him to want to refund the money and get this gun off of his books. But THEN what does he do? He's now in posession of what might be an issue to his livelyhood....so does he call the BATFE and explain the situation? I'd have to think that logically they'd appreciate him trying to do the 'right thing' but I also know the BATFE don't always act logically and this might be the start of a very uncomfortable situation for him. Sheesh...why does everything have to be so damned complicated? Seriously guys...what's the FFL supposed to do in such a case?

 

[Monac]

I agree with you, RecoilRob, except that I don't think that everything is so darn complicated. This is an exceptional case, where a pistol that very much ought to have a serial number does not have one. That is why everyone remarked on that from the start, especially since, as Onmilo points out, the OP's main question could not be answered. (Although Onmilo's example should have included the remark that the car's VIN was missing.)