Remington Rand 1911 with no SN

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GI 1911 Barrels.

http://coolgunsite.com/pistols/barrels.htm
Remington Rand:
Used mostly High Standard barrels with "HS" on the upper Right side of the lug and a "P" on the Left side of the lug. Very early Remington Rands (with “NEW YORK” marked slides and Type II) normally have “Colt .45 AUTO” barrels. Some Flannery barrels were observed from 1944-45 (See figure 9), these barrels have a P on the Left side of the lug and a F on the upper Right side (1.7-8 million serial number range). See figure 4 below for image of HS barrel.
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See barrel photo at link. A parts gun is worth $650.
 
Jim Watson said:
I guess I am the "one other" but to quote a usually reliable source (ME!) "I doubt the feds will come calling."



Should such a gun come to official notice, and you have the OP's paper trail back to a dealer so ignorant as to put a number off the barrel down as the serial number, the feds may well just raise the frame number, declare it contraband, confiscate it, and you are only out $650. Or they may find no number and hand it back. I bet the dealer would catch some flak, either way.
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And that is something we agree on.
 
I've got over twenty guns with no serial#, mostly pre-68 22s. The FFL just writes "NSN" on the 4473 and nobody thinks anything of it.
 
The prosecutor must prove that it did have a serial number to convict.

He just needs a reasonable suspicion that it once did to prosecute.
An apparent Remington Rand USGI 1911A1 is extremely likely to have had a serial number.
 
The number on the barrel is probably a drawing number from a replacement barrel made in the Sixties. If the s/n was removed from the frame it may be able to be raised, destroying the finish in the process, if no S/n was ever applied then no violation. A check with your state Dept. of Justice may find a renumbering service ( or they may confiscate) after trying to raise a removed number. I had a 1911 renumbered in Calif years ago, it only took a year for the return of the pistol and I submitted it from and had it returned to the police dept where I worked. The pistol was initially left on my porch, later an AK 47 was left there....too bad I have since moved :).
 
The last I read, which itself may be obsolete by now, the BATF would only approve of renumbering of legally owned guns stolen and recovered.
Guns pilfered from the Army by Grandpa and scrubbed in a naïve effort to elude prosecution for misappropriation of government property need not apply.
 
I have had two FFLs and a regional well known gunsmith look at this RR and they feel no SS number was removed or scrubbed. It appears like it was never stamped with a SS to begin with. Both FFLs said the sale by the legal seller who was also an FFL might be in question but not in a serious nature. My purchase was legal with the 4473 filled out with the only number available which was on the barrel. These FFLs said they have seen this on numerous occasions and have sold guns under these circumstances. So I will keep the gun and enjoy it with many rounds spent. Thanks to all for their comments.
 
If it had a serial number on the barrel and the dealer has it registered under that number,
then take it to a decent machinist and have him stamp that same number on the
frame. Problem solved.

Z
 
ArchAngelCD said:
Why?
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Because the replaceable barrel is not the prescribed Federal location for the firearm serial number, the receiver is.

"Lunch Box guns" are an interesting field and the truth is that many or most have had a serial number stamped on them some time in the distant past.
 
Onmilo said:
Because the replaceable barrel is not the prescribed Federal location for the firearm serial number, the receiver is.

"Lunch Box guns" are an interesting field and the truth is that many or most have had a serial number stamped on them some time in the distant past.
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I will not claim to know all the Federal gun laws but I think, and only think you are not supposed to alter the serial number of any gun. I'm fairly sure that also includes placing a serial number where one never was before. Why is everyone still talking about messing with a gun that doesn't need messing with? I don't think as the owner you are supposed to put your own number on any gun. Anyone know for sure, by the law and not guessing? Is making up a number and putting it on a gun even legal? Doesn't sound right to me but I'm no lawyer.
 
The story originated with the idea that some large number of guns were stolen from the various factories during World War Ii by the workers and smuggled out of the factory in lunch boxes. Supposedly, those guns were taken before being serial numbered (or marked in any way, depending on the tale) so they are untraceable.

I knew quite a few folks who worked in those factories, and long ago concluded that the stories were mainly garbage, on the same order as tales about Atlantic City casino employees who stole millions of the mob's money. (Wanna bet?)

Jim
 
Jim K said:
I knew quite a few folks who worked in those factories, and long ago concluded that the stories were mainly garbage
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I've worked in several large factories during my career, and the one thing that has been consistent is that you are GUARANTEED that some of the product is going to "walk" out the door, especially if it's small enough to stick in a lunchbox ....

First, while the typical worker is
not dishonest, many employees do steal at work. In a typical year approximately
one-third steal property and two-thirds engage in counter-productivity
(i.e. production deviance) (Hollinger and Clark, 1983).
Click to expand...
 
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I had a college classmate whose Grandfather worked at Remington/UMC in 1918-1919.
He had a neat little box with a full set of upper and internal 1911 parts that Grandpa had pilfered. But he was unable to steal a frame or a whole gun, those were pretty well controlled. I told him about Essex frames and he was glad to know he would be able to assemble a working gun with Grandpa's Stuff.

Come on, rdmercer, tell us that barrel number. Is it maybe 7791193?
 
Jim Watson, if the barrel is stamped 7791193, what does that mean? I am confused with all the conversation to this point. And why would it be stamped with that number? Just asking!! But I found with a search that, "7791193" is a part number, and denotes a post-WWII replacement barrel.
 
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No SN?

Sounds like a mifiosa scrubber gun. Probably used for a lotta "hits," but can't talk 'bout none of 'em. Fogettaboutit.
 
if the barrel is stamped 7791193, what does that mean? I am confused with all the conversation to this point. And why would it be stamped with that number? Just asking!! But I found with a search that, "7791193" is a part number, and denotes a post-WWII replacement barrel.
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You pretty much answered you're own question. :cool:

7791193 is the barrel's USGI stock numbers, and also the Army's blueprint number for that particular part (the 1911A1 service grade barrel). It has no relationship to any other number - including a serial number - on any pistol.

#7791193 barrels were made by several sub-contractors after World War Two, and were primarily used in refurbishing used pistols during and after the Vet Nam war. It wouldn't be anything that would be original in a Remington-Rand .45 made during World War Two.
 
Yes, if you should have to report gun no 7791193 stolen, there might be any number of "hits" because of other ignorant clerks recording a part number as the serial number.
More likely to see 7790314 because it is the replacement slide number and is big and bold on otherwise unmarked slides.

Similarly, there are untold numbers of Smith & Wesson revolvers registered by the meaningless factory assembly number under the yoke instead of the official serial number on the butt.
 
Yes Jim, it has that number on the barrel. So what do you suggest with the information I have posted for the proper thing to do?
 
Beats me. I would not have bought it in the first place.
I THINK you have enough paper trail to get away with it, but the gun is unsalable to any knowledgeable buyer. But as you have seen on this thread, there are a lot of people who have no problem with it.

Unfortunately real lawyers like Frank and Spats have not weighed in.
 
Jim Watson said:
Beats me. I would not have bought it in the first place.
I THINK you have enough paper trail to get away with it, but the gun is unsalable to any knowledgeable buyer. But as you have seen on this thread, there are a lot of people who have no problem with it.

Unfortunately real lawyers like Frank and Spats have not weighed in.
Click to expand...


So it has a replacement barrel? Big deal. It could have gotten that barrel at any time in the last 60 years.
 
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