Requirements Set For Ultimate Survival Rifle

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Assuming that the user does not intend to clear buildings and intentionally find trouble.... here are my recommendations.

Caliber: 7.62X51 NATO/.308WIN. Common ammo, plenty of surplus to be had, easy to reload for, efficient, big enough to take most game animals, big enough to take care of two legged predators, easy to shoot well.

Action type: bolt action, push feed or controlled round feed take your pick. For longevity and flexibility of ejection force I would go with a fixed ejector. The extractor should be very robust as well so the part should be large, and have plenty of grip on the shell casing rim. Attention should be paid to several other areas in the design of the action. For instance priority should be given to ignition reliability, hard primer hits are a must! The ability of the action to function when dirty, cold, or hot, or wet etc are also a must. I would personally design the action to have a little bit longer barrel shank than is common for a rigid receiver/barrel mate up (like the Surgeon action or the AI). I would also prefer integral weaver/picatinny mounts on the receiver top but there is no need for a rail, although having one wouldn't be a deal breaker. The integral mounts should give enough space to mount a good aperture sight behind the optics.

Barrel: Chrome lined to machine gun spec. for durability and ease of maintenance. Length 18"-20" medium contour, I would go for a 20" personally for a little more velocity while still being "handy". Polygonal rifling might be investigated for additional barrel life so long as accuracy and velocity did not suffer. I would also spec a recessed target crown, although others may want a flash suppressor or a mount for a sound suppressor as well.

Bottom metal: enlarged trigger guard for use with gloves, provision for a detachable magazine (I would use 10 round magazines) the unit should provide for really solid magazine retention if the user does not want to detach the magazine(s).

Trigger: single or two stage, pull weight 3-3.5lbs. Preferably something mechanically simple and easy to clean.

Stock: Fiberglass with aluminum bedding pillars or bedding block, with a good recoil pad and a strait comb. A pronounced pistol grip would be nice (for me). The stock should be able to accept a small cleaning kit to store on board the rifle like the Otis system. Provision for slings and bipods should be included.

Iron Sights: Good iron sights made of actual steel secured solidly to the barrel near the muzzle. Post/square blade front adjustable for elevation, hooded or otherwise protected, a tritium insert would be nice here. Rear sight aperture mounted at the rear of the receiver behind the rear scope ring, this should be adjustable for windage and elevation.

Optics: A good fixed or variable power scope of robust construction should be used. A scout style mounting could also be employed if the user wanted a forward mount on the barrel. Personally I would not mount anything huge on the rifle, maybe something like the 2.5-10X24 Nightforce with the NP-R2 reticle so you can use holdovers on the cross hair and you would have illumination as long as your batteries held out (store extras with your cleaning kit!).I would also look into the new 2.5-10X32 Nightforce as well for more ability in failing light. I am biased here since I like Nightforce scopes, many others will do an equally good job! Make sure to use the toughest rings you can lay your hands on.

Materials and finishes: Action and barrel should be made from a good stainless steel, and then coated with a tough weather resistant finish. I have heard good things about Cerakote, and that is what I would use. Internal parts (firing pin, trigger components, etc.) should be treated with something that is self lubricating, and weather resistant, there are any number of available finishes take your pick.

That is about all I can think of. Target weight would be around 7-7.5lbs. This may seem heavy for a short barreled .308 bolt gun, but I want durability and ruggedness first. The goal is for this to be a rifle that you would immediately grab first if you knew hard use, or hard times were ahead. A rifle that can take some abuse, and keep performing without any doubt in the user's mind.
 
OK, Coal Dragger has basically got me convinced.
As a back up gun, a basic SMG would do well.
But as a prime rifle...
Well, Jeff Cooper wasn't an idiot...
As an aside, is there any difference in twist rate needed to stabilize M118LR? Or does it use the same twist rate as M80 Ball?
 
...but who's going to be shooting at flying birds in a survival situation?

Shooting and eating fowl has been a long established practice. If birds are what's around, then birds are what's going to be for dinner.

In fact, it seems to me that anything that can be taken with birdshot... can just as easily be taken with a 22LR.

It appears to me that you are only focusing on the "shot" part of shotgun, and are ignoring the fact that shotguns can utilize slugs, too!
A shotgun's versatility is amazing.
Not only can it do what a .22 can, but, loaded with the proper slugs, can also take down a bear - something that you'd have to be either pretty brave or pretty stupid to try to do with a .22.

My thoughts:

A shotgun with birdshot can shoot birds - this is tough to do with a rifle, unless you shoot like Annie Oakley.

A shotgun can also take small game as previously mentioned (i.e.- upland game on the ground, squirrels, rabbits, turkey, sitting ducks and geese) and still leave something worth cooking. This would be best accomplished with a smaller caliber rifle like a .22 or a varmint-type round, since a .308 would most likely blow the critter into pieces.

Buckshot is good for medium to large size game (i.e.- deer, pigs, elk, sheep) and also perfect for self-defense (i.e.- people). This would be best accomplished by a medium-to-large size caliber rifle, since a .22 just wouldn't cut it here.

Slugs, as previously mentioned, can take down a bear. This would be best accomplished by a large caliber rifle.

So... there you have it - a shotgun combines the qualities of a small, medium, and large caliber rifle all in one package, and can also shoot birds to boot!

About the only shortcoming the shotgun possesses is it's lack of range; the greatest distance to accurately engage a target with a smoothbore barrel would be about 100 yards with slugs.

Saboted slugs out of a fully-rifled shotgun barrel are reported to achieve 4" groups at 200 yards - but this would negate the ability to accurately shoot shotshells out of the same barrel (unless you want donut-shaped patterns).
 
...

Hmmm......

maybe an AK-system carbine, that uses even smaller ammo?
Like the 7.62 x 25 pistol cartridge?

....or make it a 7.62 x 25 bolt action,
accompanied by a CZ-52 or TT33 you´d
be able to defend yourself, hunt and keep it rugged and lightweight.

Thoughts?


(Or is it just a cross between Mosin-Nagant and an SKS?)
 
I gotta go with a FAL or M1A...good firepower..potent round...we are about survival...you may need some long range!
BTW...20 CMI mag!
 
Indeed, Coal Dragger.
That would make for an excellent multi-role rifle.

.

An O/U scattergun, one rifled, one smooth bore.
Low profile trenched optics rail, bead front.

A sidearm that thinks it's a carbine.

A carbine that thinks it's a sidearm.

A compressed-air slug launcher.

.
 
Surviving a zombie apocolypse or surviving a winter camping in the Rocky Mountains?

And why does everybody think survival is impossible without being able to harvest and eat large game? :confused: Are we talking "survival" without giving up one's way of life? Afraid of having to resort to eating bugs for protein? They're much more convenient to harvest and eat than an elk. :)

Very few "survival" situations can be imagined in which one would NEED to shoot ANYTHING past 100 yards, whether you're hunting big game to feed your family or defending yourself from a an oncoming threat. Hence, I'd vote a rifle isn't the proper tool for survival to begin with, but that's not relevant here.

A .30 caliber, bolt-action, detachable magazine-fed, scout-mount scoped rifle with backup iron sights is the best idea in my mind, although that changes depending upon whether you have a refrigerator or not and how many people you are in charge of feeding. Chances are, if your sole daily dilemma is simply staying alive, the answers are 'no' and 'few'. Consequently, harvesting small game makes much more sense if "survival" absolutely MUST consist of shooting an animal.

Basically, I'd rather grow and trap my food. There is a reason that animals waste as little energy as possible acquiring their food; it's counter-productive. I'd have a gun to protect myself from other humans who were too lazy to do the same and would rather take advantage of my resources through theft.
 
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If I had to pick one and only one rifle it would be my Marlin 357 model 94.

I have round ball loads that replace a 22 rifle. My rifle will feed wadcutter bullets seated slightly out of the case. These are good small game loads also. Plus they aren't very loud. And you can use all the other full power 38 loads for SD or hunting.

Full power loads will work for large game if the range isn't too long.

It has no seperate magazine to get lost. I can thumb in loads with the gun pointed at the target so it can be topped off without having to remove it from my shoulder. Thats a plus if you have fired a few shots and you are holding a BG prisoner and need to reload.

It fills the same roll as a 30 carbine but has more powerful ammo. Plus it operates just fine with very light loads since it doesn't rely on pressure from a fired round to function.

This all assumes I have access to reloading equipment. If not then I'll take my Marlin 981T bolt action and an assortment of 22 ammo. I'm not as worried about human attackers as some folks are.
 
for how long is the poo hitting the fan?

If it's extdended, I think I want a mid caliber flintlock.

That way there is no ammunition component I can't make. Lead casting is easy, blackpowder has a simple recipe that can be found in any library. Making a flint could be challenge, but flint can be found lying on the ground. There's gonna be lead all over the place, in the form of conduit, plumbing, batteries, and the ammunition I take off my enemies.

I'm not sure if I want it rifled or smoothbore. A smoothbore would let me use it as a shotgun also.
 
Regarding the shotgun, they certainly have merit for food gathering, but in a survival situation, I believe they'd be extremely impractical. When I mentioned shooting fowl, I meant it wouldn't be practical to waste ammunition trying to knock birds out of the air. Plus, if they're small birds such as dove or quail, we're talking about maybe 2 oz. of meat per bird. Seems like a waste to me to use 1 oz. of lead to obtain a relatively small amount of meat. Where I live, doves can easily be shot out of tress with a .22 in the evenings when they go to roost, and pot shooting quail can be done also.

Here's another problem I have with a shotgun: If you're in the wilds surviving, at somepoint you'll have to carry all your provisions on your back. So let's say you can carry 10 lbs. of ammunition:

Shotgun, assuming 1 oz. loads you could carry between 3 and 4 boxes.

308, about 1 lb. per 20 round box, so 100 rounds would only weigh 5 lbs.
22LR (bear with me) you could carry a 500 rd. brick as it weighs less than 5 lbs. That's alot of ammo for hunting.

U.S.SFC_RET wrote:
one each AR-7 .22lr if you had to pick only one rifle

Brilliant! These little rifles are light and handy. Either the AR-7 or a Marlin Papoose could be carried disassembled in a backpack.

So now I've modified my original assertion of a Scout rifle being a good survival weapon. Now, I'd have to add have my Scout Rifle and an AR-7 or Papoose. The Henry AR-7 weighs only 2.5 lbs.!!

In summary, a 308 bolt rifle in Scout configuration for self defense and larger game, and an AR-7 or similar 22LR for most hunting.

35W
 
Sir Aardvark said:
My thoughts:

A shotgun with birdshot can shoot birds - this is tough to do with a rifle, unless you shoot like Annie Oakley.

A shotgun can also take small game as previously mentioned (i.e.- upland game on the ground, squirrels, rabbits, turkey, sitting ducks and geese) and still leave something worth cooking. This would be best accomplished with a smaller caliber rifle like a .22 or a varmint-type round, since a .308 would most likely blow the critter into pieces.

Buckshot is good for medium to large size game (i.e.- deer, pigs, elk, sheep) and also perfect for self-defense (i.e.- people). This would be best accomplished by a medium-to-large size caliber rifle, since a .22 just wouldn't cut it here.

Slugs, as previously mentioned, can take down a bear. This would be best accomplished by a large caliber rifle.

So... there you have it - a shotgun combines the qualities of a small, medium, and large caliber rifle all in one package, and can also shoot birds to boot!

About the only shortcoming the shotgun possesses is it's lack of range; the greatest distance to accurately engage a target with a smoothbore barrel would be about 100 yards with slugs.


I've hunted with shotguns enough to have to agree that they are about the easiest thing to bring meat home with. It's like a shoulder fired claymore - put the bead somewhere close and let fly and as often as not you'll hit what you're shooting at.

But the shotgun does have a shortcoming - ammo.
For the weight of one shotshell you can carry 15-20 rounds of .22LR. With ammo being that heavy you'd better plan on staying put and hope you never have to grab all you can and flee for your life.
Also, shooting birds with a rimfire or even a centerfire rifle isn't that hard if you're close enough. I've seen it done with centerfires without destroying any meat - just remove the head. And with a solid bullet in a rimfire, even a body shot doesn't destroy much meat.
With buckshot, I have to ask "What's the point?". OK, it will take medium sized game at close range and also work for defense, but so will a slug. So if you decide on a shotgun, why complicate your situation by adding a third kind of ammunition?
I can't argue with you on the stopping power of a slug against something like a bear - a slug beats a rimfire. But it doesn't beat a centerfire rifle by much, if any. You could carry reduced loads for your .30-30, .308, or .357 for small game and use standard loads for hunting and defense.

Eventhough I don't own one, I still think a lever action .357 or .44 offers more than a shotgun.
Also, I have found it pretty difficult to wear out most any handgun casing. With full moderate power loads you should get a lot of loadings so having 500 rounds of .357 equals a lot of shots. I actually don't think I've worn out a regular brass casing in any handgun yet. My brother did an experiment with 9mm casings and loaded the same batch 12 times. They were still fine for reloading after that. Mid ranged .357 should give comparable service.
And with some light loads using round balls in .38 casings you're probably talking a lifetime worth of shooting.
About as efficient as it gets, probably even beating a .22 when you consider that you can't reload .22 LR.
 
OK, Coal Dragger has basically got me convinced.
As a back up gun, a basic SMG would do well.
But as a prime rifle...
Well, Jeff Cooper wasn't an idiot...
As an aside, is there any difference in twist rate needed to stabilize M118LR? Or does it use the same twist rate as M80 Ball?


Thanks for seeing things my way. ha ha ha.

The one spec I forgot was barrel twist rate, and that should answer your question about ammo. Go for a 1:11 or a 1:10 to stabilize the 168-175gr rounds better, you will have more flexibility that way. My SSG PII has a 1:10 twist rate and it loves 175gr Matchkings.
 
Seems we focusing on subsistence survival where the gun's main use is food gathering. So I will bring this up....

I was saving this for a future thread, but for my aforementioned Spartan/Baikal SPR 94 combo gun in 12 ga & .223 Rem, I am ordering chamber adapters which will allow .22lr in the .223 chamber, one for .22 mag, and one for .22 hornet.

So, once I get these chamber adapters, with this gun I'll be able to shoot:

1. Anything 12 gauge from smoothbore, with all that that entails
--Foster slugs
--Buckshot
--Birdshot
(so already we can kill anything on earth, standing still or moving, except maybe a blue whale. But range is a bit limited).
2. .223 Remington for long shots on small, medium, and large game
3. .22 hornet for small and medium game
4. .22 magnum for small game
5. .22lr for small game, with very lightweight & cheap ammo
I can also shoot .22lr shotshells and .22 magnum shotshells through the .223 bore with the chamber adapters. With these small shotshells, you can shoot "tweety birds" without destroying much meat, and the reality is that tweety birds are the most common and easy to find/easy to hunt edible protein in the wilderness, so this is an important point.

Store the chamber adapters in a stock cheekpiece unit with a zipper pocket, and just cannot possibly get any more versatile. I don't think there's any way to say that any other gun is better for the food gathering / subsistence survival scenario.

35 Whelen's answer (scout rifle plus .22) is good, but it doesn't answer the question. The question is what ONE gun, not what TWO guns.... While I agree 35 Whelen that when pot-shooting, you don't need OR WANT a shotgun (.22lr instead), my choice does way more with one gun than yours does with two guns, when you can shoot pot-shoot tweety birds with .22lr and .22 mag shotshells, pot-shoot ducks and stuff with .22lr bullets, AND shoot ducks, turkeys, and other birds on the wing or moving slowly with the 12 ga! :p

Let's not forget that the vast majority of shootable meat/protein food in a real survival situation are small, smaller, and smallest in size, where the .308 scout rifle will blow them to smithereens, leaving no meat. Raccoons, beaver, opossum, groundhogs, armadillos, turkeys, ducks, quail, doves, crows, tweety birds, squirrels, rabbits, rats, mice, voles, gophers, etc. The scout rifle or any "full-powered" rifle chambered in .308 or similar may be an excellent choice for survival where self-defense is involved, it is an exceptionally poor choice (relative to the alternatives) for subsistence/food-gathering survival (and incidentally, both are inferior to a fishing pole & some snares. :) ). You might hit the jackpot with a deer, or you might go a whole season without getting one, as I have done in the past. Dunno about you, but I cannot survive 3 months without food. Tweety birds will taste mighty yummy after a mere 3 days in the woods**. :)

**And take all of about 5-10 minutes of sitting still to see and shoot one.
 
One firearm for any and all purposes? Every choice will have plusses and minuses of course but I'd go with a good drilling (Merkel, etc.) equipped with a detachable scope. Two rifle barrels above, one chambered in either 30-06 or .308 and the other in 5.56 or .22 RF and the lower barrel chambered for twelve gauge. A little pricey but we are posed with a doomsday scenario...
 
Hey premiumsauces I like your choice. I just looked at the remingtons on gunbroker.

How do you like your gun? Is it accurate? does the rifle and shotgun shoot to the same point of aim?

Also where did you find inserts for the 22 rounds?

Swampwolf has a good idea also. The cost doesn't matter, just charge it and hope you die before the bill comes in.LOL.
 
35 Whelen's answer (scout rifle plus .22) is good, but it doesn't answer the question. The question is what ONE gun, not what TWO guns.... While I agree 35 Whelen that when pot-shooting, you don't need OR WANT a shotgun (.22lr instead), my choice does way more with one gun than yours does with two guns, when you can shoot pot-shoot tweety birds with .22lr and .22 mag shotshells, pot-shoot ducks and stuff with .22lr bullets, AND shoot ducks, turkeys, and other birds on the wing or moving slowly with the 12 ga!

My bad. I got carried away when someone mentioned the AR-7. Then I go back to the Scout Rifle. And re-read my post. I suggested either low velocity cast bullet loads OR a chamber adapter for a 32ACP or 32 Colt. Regulate these loads with your backup sights and you're all set! By the way, I shoot cast bullets, and a .30 caliber cast bullet loafing along at 1000 fps or so will do no more damage to small game than a 22LR HP, and probably less damage than the Hyper-Velocity stuff like Stingers et al.
Somewhere in my "stuff" I have an old article in which the author loads individual buckshot into 308 cases. I don't recall the powder charge, but it was probably a couple of grains of Bullseye. All that'd be required to reload the shells is a way to remove the spent primer and seat a new one as no case resizing would be necessary. I've never tried this with a 308, but I have loaded .22 caliber pellets in my 220 Swift with just a primer for power and also with a grain of fast burning pistol powder. Accuracy was really quite good...plenty good in fact for small game.

I was saving this for a future thread, but for my aforementioned Spartan/Baikal SPR 94 combo gun in 12 ga & .223 Rem, I am ordering chamber adapters which will allow .22lr in the .223 chamber, one for .22 mag, and one for .22 hornet.

So, you'll be carrying a combo gun, three different chamber adapters and five differents calibers of ammunition?!?!?:eek: I trust you'll be hunting game that is patiant enough to wait for you to select and install the proper .22 caliber chamber adapter and ammunition for that particular adapter.;)

35W
 
Hee hee, good point. But you pick your ammo before your daily excursion/hunt, based on what game you've see and where. :p And the .22hornet is pretty redundant and therefore optional. But I'd have a lot more than 5 types of ammo. I'd have at least 6 or 8 different types of 12 ga ammo for starters.

I suggested either low velocity cast bullet loads OR a chamber adapter for a 32ACP or 32 Colt. Regulate these loads with your backup sights and you're all set!

Also a good point - I'd missed that you'd said that. :)
 
Funny, I started this thread expecting the Kalashnikov to be the dominant topic.
Oh how wrong I was.
While I like the drilling concept, it's sort of cheating around my original design concept (thought that's perfectly okay).
My take on it is that, for optimum survival in all areas, a certain combination of the following guns is warranted:
-The Heavy Scout Rifle (As described by Coal Dragger)
-The Drilling Rifle (As described by PremiumSauces and Swampwolf [look, they were essentially the same idea])
And one other that really hasn't been examined yet.
The American 180 SMG.
Or something similar, perhaps ruggedized, I have no idea of the reliability of that weapon.
In the case of a "breakdown of society" situation where you are not just playing "man against wild" but also "man against man", firepower is appreciated.
This SMG (preferably in .22LR with a high ROF, but would also work in 9mm, .45, etc.) can be used like an AR-7, thus fulfilling that role (Heck, if could be made out of an AR-7 with a homemade trigger mod). But it can also be used as a serious combat weapon, too.
So, if it's "man against wild", choose the drilling rifle.
If it's "man against wild and man, but avoiding man as much as possible" then the heavy scout rifle is the right choice, maybe with the SMG in tow.
If it's "man against man" well, then... let's all just go buy Kalashnikovs (and keep that SMG on backup).
 
If I were just looking for one general purpose rifle meant to do it all in a REALLY chaotic survival situation I'd probably go with an H&K 91 or JLD PTR-91 for four reasons.

  1. It's record of reliability. You'd have to work really hard to break something on it. I've heard of some H&K 91's never having to replace a single part even though they've been used regularly for years.
  2. It's in .308 which can take both small and large game and it's potential for one shot stops on human opponents is about as good as you're going to get with a military style semi-auto rifle unless it's an M1 Garand in 30-06 (which would give you a little more velocity and LBS wise). The .223 Rem isn't bad and you could use it for deer if you had to, but the .223 isn't going to have quite the 'Umphh' that the .308 Win does.
  3. It's semi-auto which gives you really quick repeat shots for a second or third chance at game if you miss the first time and in the event of multiple bad guys trying to do you harm.
  4. .308 Win/7.62X51 Nato ammo and mags for the H&K 91/PTR are readily available and the mags for the are REALLY cheap ($3 to $10 per 20 round mag).

If you're looking for a tough as nails reliable rifle that won't break no matter what with little or no parts support other than cleaning it yourself that's the rifle I'd choose. Granted the H&K 91 is gonna be a little less accurate just because its trigger isn't anywhere near as good as an FAL, AR or M1A and you're probably not going to get sub-MOA groups or anything, but it's battle field accurate and if you do your part it'll do its part and actually work.
 
If I were just looking for one general purpose rifle meant to do it all in a REALLY chaotic survival situation I'd probably go with an H&K 91 or JLD PTR-91 for four reasons.

1. It's record of reliability. You'd have to work really hard to break something on it. I've heard of some H&K 91's never having to replace a single part even though they've been used regularly for years.
2. It's in .308 which can take both small and large game and it's potential for one shot stops is about as good as you're going to get with a military style semi-auto rifle. The .223 Rem isn't bad and you could use it for deer, but the .223 isn't going to have quite the 'Umphh' that the .308 Win does.
3. It's semi-auto which gives you really quick repeat shots for a second chance at game if you miss and in the event of multiple bad guys trying to do you harm.
4. .308 Win/7.62X51 Nato ammo and mags for the H&K 91/PTR are readily available and the mags for the are REALLY cheap ($3 to $10 per 20 round mag).


If you're looking for a tough as nails reliable rifle that won't break no matter what with little or no parts support other than cleaning it yourself that's the rifle I'd choose. Granted the H&K 91 is gonna be a little less accurate just because its trigger isn't anywhere near as good as an FAL, AR or M1A and you're probably not going to get sub-MOA groups or anything, but it's battle field accurate and if you do your part it'll do its part and actually work.
Please read the OP. :D
 
Please read the OP.

Well I'm guessing that my post didn't conform to a standard you had set in the beginning.

So I went back to the first post and read it again.

Requirements Set For Ultimate Survival Rifle

Okay, so I'm giving intense thought to the end-all, be-all survival rifle as we can make it today.
So, I want to come up with a set of requirements, but I want your input.
This rifle would be THE rifle you would use if you had to go minimalist. It would have to shoot foe and potential meals.
It would have to work always, and for a long time.
I am designing the rifle from the ground up, so please take this into consideration.
Anyway, please don't post with "The M14 has got you covered" and the like.
I want to discuss potential new designs, if you do bring up a current rifle, tell me what features are good and what should be avoided.
I appreciate your input, and look forward to seeing your ideas.
So shoot!

I'm not seeing what I could have missed.
 
I'm not seeing what I could have missed.
You didn't read hard enough, then:
I am designing the rifle from the ground up, so please take this into consideration.
Anyway, please don't post with "The M14 has got you covered" and the like.
I want to discuss potential new designs, if you do bring up a current rifle, tell me what features are good and what should be avoided.
 
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