Requirements Set For Ultimate Survival Rifle

[Solsys]

The story about Goering and the drillings is linked with equipping the Volkssturm, IIRC.

Regarding survival, well if your life, or say, the life of your little daughter is at stake, then you would end up doing what most people do when it comes down to this : have a weapon to attack a farm or anyone who can get you to food.

But since we're pretty much on the safer side than others, it would also be the other way around, as we would have more chances to have something to eat than unprepared people.

In any case, SHTF would translate for us into combat. There are FAR MORE risks to die because of humans than to die from feral dogs, grizzlies etc.
On the other hand, should the S really hit TF, there would be few game around (including cats & dogs !), and it would be impractical to get to their meat.

Hence, a survival weapon would need to be closer to a combat weapon than to a hunting weapon.
I like lever-action rifles, they are indeed versatile, but when it comes down to combat between humans, then we probably wouldn't take the risk to be underpowered : we have to assume the other side has the most modern weapons in his hands.

So we would have to go for semi-auto rifles. After that, it's the old game again, .308 Vs .223, AR-15 Vs The Rest Of The World, etc.

As for myself, I would go for a Saiga in .223, because they are sturdy, easy to maintain, reasonably accurate and really affordable.

Parts interchangeability is a lesser issue if parts have a lower probability to break down.

.223 is chosen for logistical purposes (weight, availability in a logistically starved combat environment ) over .308.

 

[Browning]

You didn't read hard enough, then:

Quote:
I am designing the rifle from the ground up, so please take this into consideration.
Anyway, please don't post with "The M14 has got you covered" and the like.
I want to discuss potential new designs, if you do bring up a current rifle, tell me what features are good and what should be avoided.

Well if you don't want to hear what would be one of the better options and you don't want to hear the truth then I don't know what to tell you (why even ask the question then?). Good luck on 'designing' your rifle.

In all likelyhood it won't be near as good as a rifle that you could have simply bought from the factory though.

 

[Float Pilot]

1.
Depends on where in the world you would be staying, hunting.

Here in Alaska the 223 calibers and 7.62x39mm stuff is very inadequate.

2.
Uban, desert, deep woods, or swamp? Snow, extreme cold or heat?

Accuracy and range requirements would change accordingly. In a vacant desert or in a high arctic region, long distance accuracy and impact power are prime considerations if you want to eat that week. Fending off hordes of zombies at close range, much less a concern.

3.
The weight and size considerations would change with a combination of the first two questions.

While you may not mind holding a heavy belt fed weapon for a 30 minutes while fending off a street full of crazed barbarians, humping one over snow covered mountains along with the rest of your gear gets old pretty quick.

 

[SaMx]

I think in a survival situation I would be doing less deer hunting and more small game hunting. Depending on the situation I might be concerned about self defense too.

The lever action .357 idea seems like a good one, because .38 special wouldn't be too much for small game, and the heavier .357 loads could take deer if you had too. It also has enough firepower for self defense. I don't like tube magazines or lever actions that much though, so I would prefer maybe a pump action that used detachable box mags? It would be hard to find a caliber that could give you the same versatility as the .357 though.

Maybe a 10mm pump action carbine that used common pistol magazines. You could use ammo handloaded for much lower velocity for small game hunting, and the full power stuff when you needed it.

 

[35 Whelen]

Quote:
You didn't read hard enough, then:

Quote:
I am designing the rifle from the ground up, so please take this into consideration.
Anyway, please don't post with "The M14 has got you covered" and the like.
I want to discuss potential new designs, if you do bring up a current rifle, tell me what features are good and what should be avoided.

Well if you don't want to hear what would be one of the better options and you don't want to hear the truth then I don't know what to tell you (why even ask the question then?). Good luck on 'designing' your rifle.

In all likelyhood it won't be near as good as a rifle that you could have simply bought from the factory though.

When someone poses a question with specific parameters, as did Nolo in his OP, why deviate? I think Nolo's intention here was to get opinions other than those that contained the same ol' "go out and buy a (insert your favorite tacti-cool firearm) rifle with a sack full of 20 round clips".

Well if you don't want to hear what would be one of the better options and you don't want to hear the truth then I don't know what to tell you (why even ask the question then?).

My, my...we're a modest one, aren't we? Why don't you enlighten us with your experiences in survival situations with these rifles? At 9-10 lbs. unloaded, they ought to be real handy.

I respect your opinion regarding the rifles you mentioned, but rather than attempt to change the direction of a post, why don't you start your own post and state why you believe the rifles you mention are perfect for survival situations.

35W

 

[Neckshot5seven]

Are you wanting to survive a ZPAW situation or reality? Id do .223 bolt for reality and anAK for ZPAW

 

[dispatch55126]

This rifle would be THE rifle you would use if you had to go minimalist. It would have to shoot foe and potential meals.

A true rifle for food, safety and reliability.

1. Being a true minimalist (yukon territory, not the surburban jungle) means everything is gone. Though you may have a cleaning kit, you will not have hoppes. That said, a gas operated semi would be out of the question. A piston semi may still be in the hunt, except...

2. Parts. You will not be able to get parts should something break or go missing. Small parts such as springs, pins, screws should be kept to a minimum and not be any part of the cleaning process. That said, many piston semi's are now gone. As such, a striker fired bolt is the best option

3. Food. Unless its winter, you're well established (cabin, smoker, ect), large game is a waste of time. It would take more effort to hunt one, clean it and waste alot of meat. However, if you are established, any size game would do.

4. Ammo. Ammo selection would be based off of the game hunted. 5.56 (mil-spec ammo for long term storage in less than ideal conditions) would cover anything up to a deer, .30 caliber for deer and larger.

5. Security. I call it this and put it last for a reason. Survival means to keep your butt safe. You don't pick fights and you avoid them whenever possible. Thinking about defending yourself first and everything else second will make you worm food quicker.

That said:
-bolt action
-5.56 or 7.62x54R
-simple to operate
-virtually no required maintenance
-few moving parts

Going off of my collection, I would take my Type 53. It is accurate, compact, light(er) weight, simple to operate and maintain and will cover anything I may encounter.

This rifle is not even on my radar for a SHTF/TEOTWAWKI, but it is a true minimalist rifle.

 

[King Bear]

Bear with me here, guys.

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around these "survival scenarios".

OK, WHAT are you trying to survive? Is it living off the land, or the zombie apocalypse?

Are you going to be in combat 24/7 or working to stay alive? If combat, why?

Why are you alone?

Why are you trying to live out the rest of your life from a backpack?

If what you are asking is "What is the most versatile single gun for feeding myself for an indeterminate stay in the woods?" The answer is one of the over/under shotgun/rifle combos. The best I can think of is the out-of-production Savage 24C (I think it's the C), that has a .22LR barrel OVER a 20 gauge shotgun barrel.

The rifle si for precision shots, the shotgun for larger game. I woudl primarily take slugs, with only a few buckshot rounds for possibly hostile two-legged critters. I Would want the barrels harmonized to 100 yards (furthest realistic shot for foster slugs). I would zero the iron sights for the .22 at 50 yards -- and make sure I knew where the shotgun shot to with that sight setting, and put a red dot or 2x scope on and zero it for 100 yards.

If you're not actively hunting, and just going from one place to anothe, keep a buckshot load in the shotgun chamber and the barrel selector at the shotgun barrel.

"But, But, what if five guys with rifles come after you??"
You die.
Know what? Even if you had an AR, AK, M-14 or M2HB 5 guys are going to find a way to kill you. Going out in the woods with your backpack and trusty rifle, fighting off barbarian hordes while hunting bambi is a fantasy. It won't happen.

Know what else won't happen? Living out of your backpack indefinitely. Guys say [x-caliber] is no good because you can't carry a lifetime supply of it. I've got news for you. You can't carry a lifetime supply of anything in your backpack. At least not if you plan on living more than a few months. People have deveolped communities since the beginning of, well, people for a reason. Even in the fur trap era, guys took huge amounts of equipment int he woods with them, often two mule loads or more, and HAD to replenish at the yearly rendezvous. At least the less than 50% that lived through that winter.

You know, you can read all kinds of survival stuff. I've read all kinds of articles from various magazines, book accounts and such. Know what the consensus is on the "ideal" survival gun? It's whatever you have. That may sound trite, but I've read guys pontificate on how they made it through lean years (like the Great Depression) with a single shot shotgun, a single shot .22, Dad's bringback 1903 from the War to end all Wars -- whatever they had, they used. Each one can lay down a convincing argument that will make you want to rush out and buy what they had.

If I had to pick one rifle for me? I think Jeff Cooper's scout concept has a lot of valid points. Except, I hate scout scopes, they just don't work well with my terrible vision. So a Remington BDL (because it has iron sights) topped with a Leupold 3-9 Vx3, in .30'06 would probably be my pick for an all-round rifle. See, another thing I deal with is big hands. I can shove cartridges into a bolt action faster than I can into a lever action -- at least without ripping my thumbnail off. Detachable mag? I hear there's (expensive) conversions for the Rem 700 to take M14 magazines. It'd be nice to have some 10 rounders, but if I need a lot of firepower, I'm probably dead no matter what I have, so I'm not going to sweat it.

Want to take small game and birds? Learn to trap and snare (including trotlines and gill nets). Much more efficient than even a .22.

 

[Coal Dragger]

For those that would also want the ability to harvest small game, a sabot loaded .224 bullet out of a .308 would work quite nicely given that shooting distance should not be very long. You could easily take rabbits, squirrels, birds (on the ground or roosted), and many other smaller animals with such a loaded round. Given the need to be able to keep the rifle running long term, reloading will be part of the deal anyway so why not keep this capability in mind too?

Otherwise make sure to have a sufficient supply of these rounds available (loaded) in case you would have to bug out for some reason.

Just keep in mind they probably will not work in a semi-auto, but other than that you can expand the capability of the .308 down for smaller game. At the same time you can't make a .223 suitable for large deer species like elk, moose, caribou, etc. Just my thoughts.

 

[dispatch55126]

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around these "survival scenarios".

OK, WHAT are you trying to survive? Is it living off the land, or the zombie apocalypse?

Are you going to be in combat 24/7 or working to stay alive? If combat, why?

Why are you alone?

Why are you trying to live out the rest of your life from a backpack?

Thank you. A shotty would be an even better choice than my T53...though this is the rifle forum

 

[wulfbyte]

King Bear has the best post so far, but I am sure it will not be properly appreciated.

To try to answer Nolo's question, I would say this:

Action- A lever, to allow me simplicity and reliability of operation, cartridges of various lengths without modification (think .357 and 38 spcl or .44 mag and .44 spcl) as well as rapid follow up shots
Modifications - the lever action would need to be modified in such a way that the bolt could be easily removed, or perhaps a takedown version so that access to the bore would be made easier. Also as many small parts and springs would have to be designed out without losing reliability or ruggedness.

Sights- Iron of course, a good peep and high visibility front but drilled and tapped for mounts and a rail - should such conveniences become available.

Length- Carbine as they are easier to pack, but with a full length mag tube, still have plenty of rounds at the ready.

Caliber - And this of course is Nolo's money question, what caliber can he redesign to answer all questions - for me I would choose a supermag like the .357 or .445 supermag. reason being is that would allow me to run 38 Spcl, .357 Magnum and .357 SuperMag all from the same gun without modification to allow for the maximum versatility of ammunition. On small game that such a round would be too damaging, I would rather use traps or snares and save the ammo anyway.

Finally, re-read King Bears post and remember that the ability to survive in any situation resides between the ears, not in the hand.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

I want to discuss potential new designs, if you do bring up a current rifle, tell me what features are good and what should be avoided.

Ok, then, in that case, take the Baikal SPR 94 O/U 12 ga / .223 Rem, and make all parts except furniture out of nickel-plated stainless steel, and replace wood furniture with fiberglass. This bad boy needs to be mondo weather-resistant. It also needs to be much smoother to open and close, and have much better triggers. Good 2-way adjustable iron sights for the 12 ga, with a fold-down rear in order to use just the front sight for wing-shooting, then a good P-rail & see-through rings for mounting a scope for the .223/.22. The .223/.22/.22 mag barrel needs to be integrally suppressed, or be threaded for a suppressor.

But I 'spose if I had my druthers, in the form of a dream drilling for survival, it'd have 3 barrels, and have about 21.5 or 22" bbls: One in 12 ga 3.0" with interchangeable choke tubes, one in 6.5x55mm, and one in .223 Rem, with chamber inserts for .22lr and .22 Mag.

 

[ThomasT]

This is the best survival piece I have ever read. I think it answers more than just what gun to use. Its also closer to my vision of a survival situation that doesn't require fighting off large bands of predatory attackers.

Predators want easy prey. If your armed with anything that shoots you are no longer easy.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/survival.htm

If your looking to design a gun from the ground up a simple bolt like in the article should do just fine.

 

[Nolo]

Well if you don't want to hear what would be one of the better options and you don't want to hear the truth then I don't know what to tell you (why even ask the question then?). Good luck on 'designing' your rifle.

In all likelyhood it won't be near as good as a rifle that you could have simply bought from the factory though.

You can certainly put it out there, but, I am pretty sure that there are flaws with that rifle from a survival perspective.
For instance: the fluted chamber means reloading is a no-no. Bad.
The PTR-91 may very well have some desirable features from the perspective of a survival rifle, but I really get headaches when people take design threads as an opportunity to tout a particular weapon.
Especially when I KNOW that weapon is nowhere near perfect for the design criteria.

Ok, then, in that case, take the Baikal SPR 94 O/U 12 ga / .223 Rem, and make all parts except furniture out of nickel-plated stainless steel, and replace wood furniture with fiberglass. This bad boy needs to be mondo weather-resistant. It also needs to be much smoother to open and close, and have much better triggers. Good 2-way adjustable iron sights for the 12 ga, with a fold-down rear in order to use just the front sight for wing-shooting, then a good P-rail & see-through rings for mounting a scope for the .223/.22. The .223/.22/.22 mag barrel needs to be integrally suppressed, or be threaded for a suppressor.

But I 'spose if I had my druthers, in the form of a dream drilling for survival, it'd have 3 barrels, and have about 21.5 or 22" bbls: One in 12 ga 3.0" with interchangeable choke tubes, one in 6.5x55mm, and one in .223 Rem, with chamber inserts for .22lr and .22 Mag.

Dude, you're okay. I wasn't pointing fingers at you. Your suggestion was unusual and helpful, which is exactly what I am looking for.

 

[NotSoFast]

I think back to the old west and what the cowboys carried. They had to live from day to day with one long gun and one short gun. To my knowledge, very few carried a shotgun and most of them carried a relatively large caliber.

I would also want something that is simple and reliable. So, while not having a particular make and model in mind I think I would stick with something that compliments a pistol for caliber so that I could use the same ammunition in both guns.

 

[ThomasT]

Notsofast I think if you do a little research you will find that shotguns were very prevelent in the old west. Hollywood likes rifles and pistols better so thats what they arm the actors with.

I have most of the Time/Life Old West series of books and shotguns were very popular. You are right in your thinking about what the cowboys used.

The other poster who said you use what you have is dead nuts right. You can "make do" with about any firearm.

You can find a book on E-Bay ("our friend") called "Hunting And Fishing With Indian Secrets" for around 5 bucks. Its a great read for a survival minded person. The Injuns were geniuses when it came to gathering food without a firearm.

 

[Nolo]

This is all good stuff. I am happy I started this thread. Though, now that I have heard everyone talk about breaking parts with semi-autos, I am spurred to see if I can't make a semi-auto that's as indestructible as an Arisaka...

 

[King Bear]

I am spurred to see if I can't make a semi-auto that's as indestructible as an Arisaka

It's called a Kalashnikov. The AK platform can be had in 5.45x39, 5.56x45, 7.62x39, 7.62x51 and 7.62x54R.
The FN-FAL series is almost as indestructable. None of them are easy on brass.

Re: cowboy guns.
Contrary to Hollywood, cowboys were generally very poor. They got low pay, and room and board paid for. They had to buy their own equipment and guns. Typically they'd only have a handgun -- usually in whatever caliber they could afford, which would usually NOT be a shiny new Single Action Army. The reason for a pistol is it was the only firearm that was easy to carry throughout their work day, which involved as much, if not more work on the ground than on a horse. Long guns were just inconvienent. If they owned a long gun, it was usually a scattergun, often a single shot, that they used in the rare times they had off to go hunting.

From colonial times up through modern times many, if not most households had one firearm. That one firearm was usually a scattergun. From the blunderbuss to trombone guns, the shotgun has been the gamegetter for the workaday man. Of course muskets being smoothbore as often as not were loaded with shot, or "buck and ball" loads. In fact, in the "old days" a Musket would often come with a bullet mold that had a mold for round balls to fit the individual barrel as well as several sizes of shot.

Re; the Paco article.
Brings up a good point. Notice the concept of rifle AND pistol? If you're willing to go with two guns, one can be a specialized big game/defense getter, the other a small game getter. Personalyl, I want the "big" gun to be my long gun. Here again, a shotgun works great. For instance a Rem 870 (because it's what I have) with a 20" (for handiness) barrel with screw in choke tubes and basic rifle sights, and 3 choke tubes is a top all-rounder. Improved cylinder for foster slugs and buckshot. Modified for medium sized shot (turkey, goose, duck), full for small shot (upland game). There's even neat little cases to carry the extra tubes and a wrench in. Sight the rifle sights for your chosen slugs and see where it patterns with your chosen shot sizes and you're set.

Couple this with a good .22 pistol. I like the Ruger Single Six. Mine has a 7.5" barrel, and I keep the Magnum cylinder in it. It is very accurate with magnum rounds, and if I really need to shoto lower powered rounds the WRF fits the magnum chambers.

That's just one option for "survival sets".

 

[Nolo]

It's called a Kalashnikov. The AK platform can be had in 5.45x39, 5.56x45, 7.62x39, 7.62x51 and 7.62x54R.
The FN-FAL series is almost as indestructable. None of them are easy on brass.

Well, then, why don't we make one that is easy on brass?

 

[King Bear]

Because what makes it hard on brass -- its "positive" ejection is part of what makes it so reliable.

Just buy the cheap steel-cased ammo which costs less than handloading for it anyway.

 

[Nolo]

Because what makes it hard on brass -- its "positive" ejection is part of what makes it so reliable.

Just buy the cheap steel-cased ammo which costs less than handloading for it anyway.

I thought it was the brass hitting the back of the receiver and bouncing off.

 

[King Bear]

Which is due to the forceful ejection.
It actually hits the back of the dust cover opening.

 

[Nolo]

Which is due to the forceful ejection.
It actually hits the back of the dust cover opening.

Yes, that's what I mean. Surely it is possible to mitigate that. A rubber or polymer bumper, perhaps?

 

[King Bear]

Maybe.
But I'll keep it in my "if it ain't broke" file.

 

[Nolo]

Maybe.
But I'll keep it in my "if it ain't broke" file.

In a survival situation, you may not be able to buy steel-cased ammo. And, from what I understand, it ain't the best for reloading.