Rescued Remington Rand 1911

[bersaguy]

Hi all, a friend of mine recently lost her father, among his possessions he had a "an old 45" that he apparently bought in the early/mid 1980's. He never fired it...never took it out of the brown paper bag that he brought it home in. Still had a price tag on it... $350. She asked me to take a look at it to see if it was worth hanging on to. Well that "old 45" is a Remington Rand M1911a1. As expected the finish did not like being stuffed in a paper sack and negelcted for the past 30 years or so. When I took it out it had quite a bit of rust on it...but not much pitting. So I disassembled it, gave eveything a liberal coating of CLP and let it sit for a bit. I lightly rubbed some of the heavier rust with some clp and #0000 steel wool. I'm not a gunsmith, but I do understand the importance of preserving the original finish while at the same time trying to save this little peice of history. The things I know about this pistol is, from the serial # it is a 1944, it has the correct High Standard barrel, correct ordinance and inspector stamps, it does have an Agusta Armory stamp and the condition is ....? And that's the question, given the overall condition should this pistol be left as is and kept as a collectable, or should it be refinished and used as a shooter? What would it be worth as is? I'll be taking it to the range later this week to function test, but it cycled the snap caps I ran through it just fine. Take a look at the pics and let me know what you think.
Also, the mag has "L" stamped on the toe, no other marks, no weld seam and has the correct tapered feed lips, anyone know who the manufacturer might be?
Thanks

 

[bersaguy]

More Pics

More pics

 

[jhb]

Collector. That's me though.

You can go buy a tisas for 300 and change and make it a shooter and refinish it etc.

 

[dbmjr1]

Please don't refinish that firearm.

 

[MikeJackmin]

I'd leave it just as it is. They aren't making WWII pistols any more.

 

[bersaguy]

Still more pics

Didn't want to be accused of not having enough pics

Also, question on finish, I didnt notice white metal in the inspector or arsenal stamp, has this already been refinished and of so is there any way of knowing if that wat done at agusta?

 

[Gordon]

Worth $1500 around here in that shape.

 

[Gun Master]

Collectible ? Shooter ?

Collectible first, shooter next.
Don't refinish it. It's more beautiful as is. Keep it well lubed (but I don't need to tell you that) . If you refinish, you reduce the collector's value and remove the never to be regained character.
If you want to shoot it, go ahead, it's yours, but you might want to do so only on special occasions, and limited number of rounds.
But enjoy it, by all means !!!

 

[rcmodel]

(L) Little mags was used by Remington Rand, Ithaca, and US&S during WWII.

*Little magazines have been seen with two font variations (Block and Roman) "L" and "L".

You got the real deal!!

+1
DO NOT refinish or modify it.
I've carried worse in the Army??

rc

 

[bersaguy]

Thanks for all the prompt responses. So, definitely not going to recommend refinishing. I only plan on putting a few rounds through it to determine functionality. Hate to jave to give It back, but I've enjoyed bringing it back to life and learning a little more of the history. My 1911 is an Argentine Model 1927. It was nice to have an orginal USGI to compare it to, they're nearly identical.

 

[Gun Master]

1911 Rescue

You go Guy!
You are on the right track.
I'm a Bersa Guy and 1911 Guy (among others) too.

 

[1911Tuner]

Nice find. An arsenal rebuilt pistol won't have the collector value of an original, but it's worth well more than 350 bucks for a fact.

It might not be a bad idea to research the serial number to insure that it's a Rand frame. Sometimes they came out of the arsenal mixed. If it has FJA (Frank J. Atwood) inspector's mark, you've at least narrowed it down to Rand or Ithaca.

The magazine was made by MS Little...a WW2 magazine contractor that supplied magazines for Ithaca...Remington Rand...and US&S co. They also made magazines for Colt. In the case of a Colt contract magazine, the mark on the toe would be L-C.

I'd limit any shooting to function testing and maybe a magazine full on the anniversary of D-Day or the Tarawa invasion, etc.

 

[Onmilo]

Nice find. An arsenal rebuilt pistol won't have the collector value of an original, but it's worth well more than 350 bucks for a fact.

I sold this Arsenal refurbished X numbered Colt for a bit over $1100,,,

 

[bannockburn]

bersaguy

Nice job with the rescue operation. Most definitely one decent Remington-Rand M1911A1.

 

[tark]

I haven't seen even a single vote to modify the gun..You certainly won't get one from me! The gun is worth four figures as is, rebuild or not. Refinish or modify it and it will be worth less than half of that.

The gun is a priceless artifact dating back to the greatest war of all time. Cherish it for that, and leave it original.

 

[Bill.45]

A gun is original only once. You might replace the recoil spring when you fire it, laying aside the original to replace when need be.

 

[Jim Watson]

Arsenal reworks are getting to be socially acceptable as the originals get priced out of sight. Take it easy with the steel wool.

 

[robmkivseries70]

To reinforce Tuner's note, the WWII GI pistols were not as well hardened as their commercial counterparts and as such shouldn't really be shot much. The young lady needs to hang on to that as a collectable family heirloom.
Best, Rob

 

[ulflyer]

Perhaps when she sees how much you care about it, she'll sell it to you for a reasonable price. Not sure what would be reasonable, but I'd say $1200 considering its condition.

I have a much nicer one and get it out once in awhile and shoot a few soft reloads thru it.
Let us know how it worked out on the range.

 

[bersaguy]

Thanks guys for all the responses, she's not much of a shooter, (the owner) which is to say...she's not a shooter. So hopefully she may give me an opportunity to purchase it. I would love to own it. I'm not much of a collector, I shoot everything I own...but I'd make an exception for this one. I have a nice recipie for some soft shooting reloads that im going to work up tonight. I'll have a range report and some pics of this old warhorse in action after the weekend.

 

[Onmilo]

To reinforce Tuner's note, the WWII GI pistols were not as well hardened as their commercial counterparts and as such shouldn't really be shot much. The young lady needs to hang on to that as a collectable family heirloom.
Best, Rob

I disagree.
Wartime hardening was different than modern methods but to say the guns should not be shot much is a joke.
I rebuilt and repaired 1911A1 pistols in the Army.
Most of the guns had been fired hundreds of thousands of times and had also been rebuilt several times over.

The MOST common parts failures were springs, broken grip panels, sheared hammer notches and broken/damaged sights.

I cannot remember ever seeing a receiver or slide that had failed due to anything but neglect.

 

[1911Tuner]

I disagree.
Wartime hardening was different than modern methods but to say the guns should not be shot much is a joke.

The only hardening done on the WW2-era pistols was at the end of the slide, about an inch back and at the slidestop notch. The hardened steel insert in the breechface was added in 1936.

That's it.

I've seen several WW1 and WW2 slides crack in the port adjacent to the breechface from recoil forces and tensile stresses. I've also seen several with deformed lugs from the same stresses.

On any USGI pistol with an unknown history and round count, I advise limited use for these reasons.

 

[Jim Watson]

A coworker had one cracked up into the flat above the recoil spring tunnel. Right where the impact against the stop surface in the frame tries to bend it.
Now this is the only such I have seen in person, but I have seen pictures.
I have also seen pictured a "modern" stainless slide broken clear off at that location.
But that is all, over my career.
A friend had a gray market (black market?) source of all GI parts but receivers. He assembled a number of guns on Essex frames. Never heard of anybody wearing one of those out, but it has only been 35 years.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Didn't want to be accused of not having enough pics

Also, question on finish, I didnt notice white metal in the inspector or arsenal stamp, has this already been refinished and of so is there any way of knowing if that wat done at agusta?

You want to inspect the crossed canons very close. This stamp was applied after the pistol was finished so you should see "some" white metal. You can see it here.


This Rem-Rand is original finish and as close to unissued condition as I've seen.



I put 2 mags down range a few days ago, it shots very nice for a old war horse, just like new Colts, Kimbers and Dan Wessons.

 

[bersaguy]

Madcratebuilder,
perfect, thats what I was wondering, I don't see any white in the crossed cannon stamp, but it was also lightly stamped. Wondering if it may have been refinished at the arsenal, or later. Here's some close ups before and after lifting some of the rust. By the way, that it one beautiful peice you have there