Returning Fire In a Street Shooting You Aren’t the Target Of

[Jeff White]

If anyone is fantasizing here, it's you and Jeff-fantasizing that I'm doing something more than discussing scenarios which happen every day in America.

Why don't you fill us in on your personal experience with these everyday scenarios? I'm sure we all would learn from your experiences. There are people here who have real life experience with these things. What have you learned that makes my 40 years of combined Army Infantry/law enforcement experience invalid? And I'm just a piker compared to some other members here. There are a couple members who were in Tier One military units, there are other members with a lot of LE experience. Many of us were trainers. So please fill us in. Relate some personal experiences you've had doing the things you are posting about.

 

[redcon1]

When and where did you serve, for how long? You're reference to Infantry tactics are right of a book and have no relationship to real life. They don't make your suggestions seem any more valid.

My points are valid because they're valid. That you have issue with them is your problem, not mine and I promise you, I will not modify my thought process one iopta based on anything I've heard from you thus far.

Frankly every post you are making in these threads always leads to a situation where you get to shoot. That is exactly the impression you a leaving.

Nah, that's just the impression that you're trying ascribe to me here because that's your game-insult anyone that may know more than you, start a big old fight with them so you can get them bannned and then continue to be the resident know it all.

This says about everything we need to know about your experience and training.

Making it personal. Attacking a man's service. Way to take the High Road Jeff.

First off all guns, even expensive ones, even AKs and Glocks can malfunction.

My Glocks have never failed. In thousands of rounds they have never failed and their magazines have never failed. I have shot them until they were filthy and they continued to run. I have failed to clean them after shooting them until they were filthy and then shot them again until they were filthier and they still didn't fail. So, maybe you think you have a better reason to carry a BUG but I know I don't.

Secondly, carrying a BUG where you can access it with your weak hand gives you many options in a close quarters fight where your gun hand might be tied up.

I'll accept that that answer is another good reason to carry a BUG but I don't believe it invalidates the fact that a BUG is handy for handing off to someone else in an emergency. In my world, it's far more likely that I'm going to need to hand the BUG off to the wife so that there are two armed opponents for an opponent to contend with instead of one and even that's unlikely of course The one time I had to pull a gun, there were three of them so I'm all about combat multiplication. if my right arm has become restrained or otherwise incapacitated then, yes, I'll have an option.

Oddly enough I did arm an off duty officer who I was giving a ride home when a hot call came in and she told me she was unarmed, rather then stop and let her out before responding I handed her my BUG.

Like I said.

Nothing happened, the call was handled without gunfire or even the need to draw a weapon. The big difference is that she was a fellow officer, I knew the training she had and her skill level. That is much different then handing off a weapon to a bystander or even your wife if she hasn't had any training. Seriously, how would you feel if you wife was shot down trying to provide covering fire while you maneuvered?

A) that is an egotistical argument. Only cops can hand off a BUG to someone because only cops are trained well enough? No.
B) My wife attended the state mandated concealed carry class and she shoots with me so...
and
C) I'd certainly rather that she have a gun in that situation than not and I think you're throwing out a strawman argument here implying that one would hand off their BUG to their wife strictly so you could both IMT from covered position to covered position. That's not really what was suggested and, in fact, I have repeatedly stated and inferred that moving out of cover would be dangerous and should be avoided unless absolutely necessary.

 

[Kleanbore]

My points are valid because they're valid.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[redcon1]

Why don't you fill us in on your personal experience with these everyday scenarios? I'm sure we all would learn from your experiences. There are people here who have real life experience with these things. What have you learned that makes my 40 years of combined Army Infantry/law enforcement experience invalid? And I'm just a piker compared to some other members here. There are a couple members who were in Tier One military units, there are other members with a lot of LE experience. Many of us were trainers. So please fill us in. Relate some personal experiences you've had doing the things you are posting about.

See, you're trying to make this all personal and all about you. Why don't you just lock this forum out to everybody but you then nobody can say anything but you and we can all just sit at our computers and revel in your glory and accept your opinions as if they were etched into stone tablets and handed to you by God himself? You are making this personal. I haven't even really disagreed with you to any great extent and you are fighting with me because that is who you are.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

I haven't even said anything controversial.

For me, a backup can serve in the event of a failure; in the event the primary is dropped or taken; to be accessed when the primary cannot; or when using it is faster than reloading.

I do not fantasize about handing a gun to someone else.

Police officers do not carry backup guns for that purpose.

So you think you're going to need to reload? How many SD shootings involve a reload? Now whose fantasizing? Here's the thing jack, I don't even carry a BUG because that's how worried about any of this I am.

 

[Kleanbore]

I haven't even said anything controversial.

Yes you have, but in this case is was something illogical.

 

[redcon1]

Yes you have, but in this case is was something illogical.

Not really.

 

[Jeff White]

Making it personal. Attacking a man's service. Way to take the High Road Jeff.

I’ve politely asked you a couple times where you served and when. Yet you choose to ignore it. Now it’s time to put up or leave. Your posts do not reflect the experience you claim to have. So tell us what your experience is.

This isn’t a request. You’re still here because your posts in the other sub forums seem reasonable. So you can tell us where you got all of the tactical wisdom you are imparting in ST&T. If you want to keep participating here tell us where this wisdom comes from. We don’t often invoke that rule here but it’s time.

 

[redcon1]

I’ve politely asked you a couple times where you served and when. Yet you choose to ignore it. Now it’s time to put up or leave. Your posts do not reflect the experience you claim to have. So tell us what your experience is.

This isn’t a request. You’re still here because your posts in the other sub forums seem reasonable. So you can tell us where you got all of the tactical wisdom you are imparting in ST&T. If you want to keep participating here tell us where this wisdom comes from. We don’t often invoke that rule here but it’s time.

I sure didn't see this coming. Fine Jeff, I was in the 1st Cav for 4 years and the 1/141st infantry Texas National Guard for another 4. mechanized infantry. Dismounted infantry machine gunner, rifleman, driver, and gunner. I went to Bosnia and that was the extent of my overseas deployments. I have been immersed in this kind of thing since I was 14 years old and I'm 50 now and I have survived this long taking my own advice.

Whatever.

You're the guy talking about"returning fire" on people who aren't even shooting at you.

Actually, I didn't talk about that. I even underlined it and put it in bold faced type -get behind cover and maintain situational awareness. Go ahead and show me where I suggested jumping into a gun fight that wasn't a threat to you.

 

[old lady new shooter]

In another thread a member mentioned returning fire if he was unfortunate enough to be where a drive by shooting was happening.

There is some home security camera video of a gang shootout where a woman in a home was killed by a stray round.

https://fox2now.com/news/missouri/g..._app&utm_medium=social&utm_content=share-link

Now I know everyone here is completely cool and calm under fire and perfectly capable of calmly putting down the bad actors. But I have to ask, if a gang shootout like shown in the video happened in your presence, wouldn’t taking cover be a better option then adding to the number of high speed projectiles flying around the neighborhood?

In my Cali house there was once a gunfight in the street two doors down from me. I stayed in my house and was thankfully fine, but so did the people across the street and one house over, and a round went right into their children's bedroom. Thank G-d the children weren't hurt.

 

[Jeff White]

I sure didn't see this coming. Fine Jeff, I was in the 1st Cav for 4 years and the 1/141st infantry Texas National Guard for another 4. mechanized infantry.

Thats interesting. Did you know SFC Bob Avila? He was a Readiness NCO in 1/141st. We were in ANCOC together at Benning in 1986? I think he was in A company but I really don’t remember it makes me feel really old to think about how long ago that was.

That might have been before your time there.

Actually, I didn't talk about that. I even underlined it and put it in bold faced type -get behind cover and maintain situational awareness. Go ahead and show me where I suggested jumping into a gun fight that wasn't a threat to you.

Your posts reek of it. Maybe it’s the language you’re using. The way you are expressing yourself you sound very much like a new gun carrier itching for a fight. I’m not the only person here who is reading you that way.

I have been immersed in this kind of thing since I was 14 years old and I'm 50 now and I have survived this long taking my own advice.

One of the first things I learned in police work was that outside of SWAT type duties very little of what I learned in the Army was applicable on the streets. Probably the only thing I did in LE that my Infantry experience helped with was developing the TTPs for the K9 Tracking unit we had.

What I’m saying is that there isn’t a lot in your experience on a Bradley dismount team that’s really applicable to a civilian self defense scenario. There is a huge difference between what a peace officer should do then what a private citizen should do.

There is a learning curve between being a soldier and a cop and there is a learning curve between being a cop and an armed citizen. For example, in 2003 I took Louis Awerbuck’s shotgun class out at Denny Hansen’s range in Prescott Valley. Part of the course was a force on force exercise using airsoft guns. It was a simple problem, an EDP was holding your daughter in an abandoned mobile home. The mission was to enter the mobile home, secure the release of your daughter and leave. My turn came and I entered the mobile home, got the drop on Flynt Hansen who was the bad guy from a concealed position and convinced him to let the hostage go. Denny’s daughter was playing the hostage and she left. At that point the exercise should have ended. But maybe it was because I was wearing my duty belt maybe I just didn’t disconnect from being a cop, I don’t know, I tried to take Flynt into custody which ended in a standoff with shots fired and Flynt shot. If it had been real a man would have died needlessly because I was acting like a cop when my role was that of a private citizen.

What I’m saying is just disconnect from the 11M training. As a private citizen on the street, you win by ending the situation in the same physical shape you started and hopefully without anyone else being hurt. That includes an attacker. The easiest way to win a fight is to not have it in the first place.

 

[Blue Jays]

"…I have repeatedly stated and inferred that moving out of cover would be dangerous and should be avoided unless absolutely necessary…"

This has been my observation of redcon1's posts. My sense is all the participants in this thread have contemplated and offered ways to avoid being in a gunfight while simultaneously being prepared for one. My take is that 99.99% of people here are reasonable and pragmatic.

 

[jmorris]

In another thread a member mentioned returning fire if he was unfortunate enough to be where a drive by shooting was happening.

There is some home security camera video of a gang shootout where a woman in a home was killed by a stray round.

https://fox2now.com/news/missouri/g..._app&utm_medium=social&utm_content=share-link

Now I know everyone here is completely cool and calm under fire and perfectly capable of calmly putting down the bad actors. But I have to ask, if a gang shootout like shown in the video happened in your presence, wouldn’t taking cover be a better option then adding to the number of high speed projectiles flying around the neighborhood?

Not sure what the video at that link has to do with a drive by shooting; however, there isn’t enough detail from that video for me to take much of any action.

They say the devil is in the details and that video doesn’t show them.

Whom would you have been engaging had the video been recorded in a remote area with zero chance of hitting other homes? Everyone, no one?

I don’t have the vision I did when I was younger but I can’t make out any “threat”. I understand, one was “there”, I just see people running from right to left, one carrying a flashlight. That would put me solid in the “save the ammo” category, doesn’t matter if that video were taken in the Ténéré Desert or Times Square.

 

[redcon1]

Thats interesting. Did you know SFC Bob Avila? He was a Readiness NCO in 1/141st. We were in ANCOC together at Benning in 1986?

Didn't know him. I don't like giving out a lot of personal information over the internet. I'm uncomfortable telling you as much as I did and only did so because you literally forced my hand. I like this site. I always have. I don't want banned.

Your posts reek of it. Maybe it’s the language you’re using. The way you are expressing yourself you sound very much like a new gun carrier itching for a fight. I’m not the only person here who is reading you that way.

I don't know what you/they think you're smelling but it certainly isn't that. I'll play devil's advocate to some extent but throughout this post, I never once veered away from "seek cover and maintain situational awareness". Getting in between two rival gangs as they shoot the crap out of each other? Try to stop that? Are you kidding me? You don't know me.

One of the first things I learned in police work was that outside of SWAT type duties very little of what I learned in the Army was applicable on the streets.

What I learned in the Army that has in fact saved my butt was situational awareness. Those aren't just two words to me. I am a firm believer that situational awareness skills are just as valuable as gun fighting skills if not more so and that's what I train.

What I’m saying is that there isn’t a lot in your experience on a Bradley dismount team that’s really applicable to a civilian self defense scenario. There is a huge difference between what a peace officer should do then what a private citizen should do.

I don't 100% disagree but I don't 100% agree. you were quick to dismiss my comments on react to contact/react to near ambush but I think that training would be valuable if you found yourself in the wrong situation-like those gang bangers in the video for instance. Notice the guys ducking for cover behind the cars. the one guy crawling between the curb and the car to get even lower. The two fools that ran instead of seeking cover. (I thought that video was very instructive in fact). The battle drills all start the same way-seek cover and then, from our military training and our general background, we understand the difference between "cover" and "concealment". We get that because we were trained to know the difference. We trained for a lot of urban combat and for low intensity conflict where civilians on the battlefield were the expectation. We understand the fog of war and how it gets us killed. I don't think it's useless in a self defense training situation.

There is a learning curve between being a soldier and a cop and there is a learning curve between being a cop and an armed citizen. For example, in 2003 I took Louis Awerbuck’s shotgun class out at Denny Hansen’s range in Prescott Valley. Part of the course was a force on force exercise using airsoft guns. It was a simple problem, an EDP was holding your daughter in an abandoned mobile home. The mission was to enter the mobile home, secure the release of your daughter and leave. My turn came and I entered the mobile home, got the drop on Flynt Hansen who was the bad guy from a concealed position and convinced him to let the hostage go. Denny’s daughter was playing the hostage and she left. At that point the exercise should have ended. But maybe it was because I was wearing my duty belt maybe I just didn’t disconnect from being a cop, I don’t know, I tried to take Flynt into custody which ended in a standoff with shots fired and Flynt shot. If it had been real a man would have died needlessly because I was acting like a cop when my role was that of a private citizen.

I don't see myself ever being in that situation. Based on my lifestyle, I know what my risks are and a hostage situation really isn't one of them. if it's anything, it will be a driveby shooting, a break in of some kind, a road rage incident of some kind, or an outright mugging of some kind which is what happened the one time I had to pull the gun (other scenarios are of course possible but pretty unlikely). I'm guessing we would have both been killed but situational awareness bought me about 15 seconds to pull my gun from the door storage compartment and formulate a plan. I saw it coming. That's why I am just all about situational awareness first and foremost and I mention it all the time. It saved me.

. The easiest way to win a fight is to not have it in the first place.

I agree with that 100% and that is always foremost in my mind. I was however under the impression that, in this forum, discussing what ifs and possible engagement scenarios was the norm. Maybe I was wrong. It's highly unlikely (though increasingly less so it seems) that any of us will ever be caught in a crossfire between rival gangs. I think we all agree that seeking cover would be the best first thing to do and I don't think there has been any disagreement about that at any point.

So, in summary, we fought a little bit but I think that's just kind of our nature to do that. I don't harbor any bad feelings about it. I have physically fought a few people only to later become friends with them because...that's our nature. But I don't want banned from the High Road so maybe I'll just avoid that in the future.

Not sure what the video at that link has to do with a drive by shooting; however, there isn’t enough detail from that video for me to take much of any action.

They say the devil is in the details and that video doesn’t show them.

Whom would you have been engaging had the video been recorded in a remote area with zero chance of hitting other homes? Everyone, no one?

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I don’t have the vision I did when I was younger but I can’t make out any “threat”. I understand, one was “there”, I just see people running from right to left, one carrying a flashlight. That would put me solid in the “save the ammo” category, doesn’t matter if that video were taken in the Ténéré Desert or Times Square.

Right. Pure fog of war there. Get behind something that stops bullets, make sure your loved ones do the same and call the police. I'd probably go as far as to say there's no other better option there.

 

[bdickens]

Didn't know him. I don't like giving out a lot of personal information over the internet. I'm uncomfortable telling you as much as I did and only did so because you literally forced my hand. I like this site. I always have. I don't want banned.


I don't know what you/they think you're smelling but it certainly isn't that. I'll play devil's advocate to some extent but throughout this post, I never once veered away from "seek cover and maintain situational awareness". Getting in between two rival gangs as they shoot the crap out of each other? Try to stop that? Are you kidding me? You don't know me.


What I learned in the Army that has in fact saved my butt was situational awareness. Those aren't just two words to me. I am a firm believer that situational awareness skills are just as valuable as gun fighting skills if not more so and that's what I train.



I don't 100% disagree but I don't 100% agree. you were quick to dismiss my comments on react to contact/react to near ambush but I think that training would be valuable if you found yourself in the wrong situation-like those gang bangers in the video for instance. Notice the guys ducking for cover behind the cars. the one guy crawling between the curb and the car to get even lower. The two fools that ran instead of seeking cover. (I thought that video was very instructive in fact). The battle drills all start the same way-seek cover and then, from our military training and our general background, we understand the difference between "cover" and "concealment". We get that because we were trained to know the difference. We trained for a lot of urban combat and for low intensity conflict where civilians on the battlefield were the expectation. We understand the fog of war and how it gets us killed. I don't think it's useless in a self defense training situation.


I don't see myself ever being in that situation. Based on my lifestyle, I know what my risks are and a hostage situation really isn't one of them. if it's anything, it will be a driveby shooting, a break in of some kind, a road rage incident of some kind, or an outright mugging of some kind which is what happened the one time I had to pull the gun (other scenarios are of course possible but pretty unlikely). I'm guessing we would have both been killed but situational awareness bought me about 15 seconds to pull my gun from the door storage compartment and formulate a plan. I saw it coming. That's why I am just all about situational awareness first and foremost and I mention it all the time. It saved me.


I agree with that 100% and that is always foremost in my mind. I was however under the impression that, in this forum, discussing what ifs and possible engagement scenarios was the norm. Maybe I was wrong. It's highly unlikely (though increasingly less so it seems) that any of us will ever be caught in a crossfire between rival gangs. I think we all agree that seeking cover would be the best first thing to do and I don't think there has been any disagreement about that at any point.

So, in summary, we fought a little bit but I think that's just kind of our nature to do that. I don't harbor any bad feelings about it. I have physically fought a few people only to later become friends with them because...that's our nature. But I don't want banned from the High Road so maybe I'll just avoid that in the future.

Fair enough. Perhaps it was your wording that left the wrong impression. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Kleanbore]

The way you are expressing yourself you sound very much like a new gun carrier itching for a fight. I’m not the only person here who is reading you that way.

No, Jeff, you are not.

That impression came though in the discussion of shooting at the driver of a moving vehicle, and the idea that an "unguided missile" would be preferred.

 

[fastbolt]

LE has learned the hard way that shooting at/from a moving veh often introduces more risks than it mitigates. Private fantasies notwithstanding, it's hard to see it being a preferable tactic for private individuals. Creating an unguided moving veh and having misses flying into the Public can become very, very problematic.

 

[DT Guy]

LE has learned the hard way that shooting at/from a moving veh often introduces more risks than it mitigates. Private fantasies notwithstanding, it's hard to see it being a preferable tactic for private individuals. Creating an unguided moving veh and having misses flying into the Public can become very, very problematic.

We were taught that shooting at a driver (you shoot at people, not vehicles) *could* work, but he was as likely to accelerate, or even 'die on the gas' as he was to disengage or stop. If you were in the vehicle's path, you needed to realize you might be making the situation worse if you manage to hit the small target surrounded by glass and metal that's moving.

It wasn't prohibited (this was decades ago) but as you can see, it certainly wasn't encouraged....

Larry

 

[film495]

if I have an easy shot, and someome with a rifle is blasting innocent civilians down, mass murder, I might feel compelled - but, it would probably be a wiser choice to turn and run.

 

[fastbolt]

...

It wasn't prohibited (this was decades ago) but as you can see, it certainly wasn't encouraged....

Larry

Yep, this can be one of those things where, depending on the wording of policy, if you elect to do it and it works out for the best, you're golden. However, if you do it and something bad results, you acted improperly.