Reviving old designs?

[HammsBeer]

With the introduction of the R51 using the Pederson delayed blowback, might we see some other manufacturers digging into past designs?

I for one would love to see a beefed up low bore version of the P08 Luger using a toggle-delayed action.
Or a not so overengineered version of the HK P7 gas-delayed blowback.
Or any number of other ways to slow down a light weight slide for a fraction of a second while the bullet travels down the barrel, and do it while not breaking the bank.

 

[owlhoot]

The operative phrase there is "while not breaking the bank." Both of those designs were expensive to produce even back when an arm and a leg were still worth an arm and a leg.

 

[RX-79G]

The 51 was expensive for a .32 made before CNC.

The Pederson system has two moving parts. Not complicated. Compare it to a P-38/Beretta 92 action and it is super simple.

 

[oss117]

Luger: Best looking pistol ever and The Original 9mm.

 

[Ian]

Mauser already made a go at reproducing the Luger a few decades ago, and it wasn't a very effective financial move.

 

[Luger_carbine]

I would love to see a newly manufactured Pistole Parabellum 1908.

Testament to the genius of Georg Johann Luger.

Also like to see the Walther P38 made again.

 

[SC Shooter]

What's interesting with the original Model 51, is that is was not a big seller. Perhaps the poor sales was because it was competing with Colt's Models 1903 and 1908. It will be interesting to see how the R51 sells.

 

[HammsBeer]

They wouldn't have to be exact faithful reproductions of the original, just apply modern manufacturing to what would have been all hand fitted parts, and make a retromodern pistol design.

 

[Mike OTDP]

Forget the gas-delay in the P7. It's the squeeze-cocker that sold it.

 

[19-3Ben]

I'd like to see someone come out with a copy of John Browning's model of 1911. That was a nice old design...oh wait...

 

[B!ngo]

For the P7 it was 'all of the above'. The gas ported barrel extension, the squeeze cocker, the gas piston delayed blowback, the fixed barrel, the finely machined steel, the sights. All of the above.
I'd like to see a 9mm, .380, .45 version of the P7. Single stack and double. Is that too much to ask?
Surely advances in machining technologies would bring down the cost of the pistol and better alloys would create more strength without the added weight of models like the M10 required.
I have two of the M8's and one M13 but a fresh round of new shootin' metal would be excellent.
B

 

[larryh1108]

I think this retro thing is happening all around us. Look at autos. They've come out with some nice retro type cars that are selling quite well for what they are. They've combined some distinctive lines with a modern design and capture the old style look with a modern flair. I believe that remington also did this with this new, old gun. There's nothing wrong with nostalgia but I do like the advances we've made since they came out years ago.

 

[Mitlov]

Darn it, somebody beat me to a 1911 joke...

(proud owner of a Remington 1911 R1 and likely future owner of a Remington R-51...)

 

[HammsBeer]

How about a retro-modern detachable mag fed Mauser C96?

Or an adaptation of the P38 would be cool too.

Some of the early "coat pocket" pistols have really nice simple lines.

 

[MyTFAL]

lucked across one of these, it is a bit "finish challenged" but honestly it is so ergonomic and easy to shoot and shoot well. The design is simple and rugged, I'd love a modern version.

 

[clance]

Already told my local gun shop to order a R51 as soon as they're available. I only hope that Remington decides to produce it in a .45acp, it would be simply awesome!

 

[gc70]

I do not care about old designs very much for the sake of nostalgia, but I do think some elements of old designs might be applied creatively today.

Browning's tilting-barrel design is excellent for full size guns, but the smaller a gun gets (such as the recent crop of mini 9s), the more the Browning design results in a less than ideal trade-off between bore height and grip length. The R51 design deals with that issue, resulting in a low bore axis and longer grip within the same overall size.

The HK P7 used its grip lever and the old Remington 51 used its grip safety as slide releases. Squeezing a pistol's grip is a faster and more intuitive way to release a slide than either the slingshot method or pressing a lever.

I don't know what, if any, application it would have today, but I have always been intrigued that the Savage 1907 was striker fired, but had a cocking lever to allow the striker to be manually cocked or decocked.

Reviving elements of old designs to address specific issues has merit.

 

[Panzerschwein]

I would love to see a modern clone of the C96 Mauser pistol in 9mm Parabellum.

It is a very complex firearm however, and even with advance in technology would still be very expensive to create. I think the P08 Luger would be easier to produce. Have Pine Tree Castings cast most of the larger parts, CNC for everything else, machine checkered grips, etc. Provided reviews were good for the gun, I'd buy one.

As for the Remington R-51... it is a neat looking pistol! I think it's awesome that Remington decided to reach back in time.

I often think we need to reach back in time more often...

 

[Orion8472]

I think a redone P-38 would be good, . . . only if they made it double stack. A 9mm of that size in single stack is a deal breaker for me. If double stack [~15 rounds], then it makes it a very interesting gun to own. Not looking EXACTLY like a P-38, . . . but similar.

Changes:

A little thicker barrel with dovetail sight.
Remove safety from slide and relocate to frame.
Magazine release either moved to traditional location or to trigger guard [ala P99].

 

[1911WB]

Reintroducing old designs

Yes, the Luger P08 would be terrific; but talk about intricate design and not being cost effective! All the parts had to be carefully fitted on the original, and didn't usually transfer between pistols well. Even the magazines don't always work universally. Mauser found all this out in their 1970's reintroduction- a fine pistol, but they couldn't get their production costs back out of it. The Stoger/Mitchell (Aimco) model has a lack of parts interchangeability with the originals even though they can be found at some decent prices. WB

 

[19-3Ben]

MyTFAL- That Savage ad is awesome!!!! I love old advertisements ("4 out of 5 doctors recommend Marlboro") and this is great. It's the combo of old ads and guns.
That's just fantastic. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Deus Machina]

I'd like to see a few old designs come back, but unfortunately it's not always feasible.
A lot of old designs fell by the wayside because they were designed to overcome shortcomings in materials, or were further refined or simplified.
And my friends that say "If they just started making these old handmade X on CNC machines, they would make a killing!" aren't aware that Old Handmade X was incredible because it was handmade, and those tolerances and fittings were made for that gun. Those designs that need that hand-fitting touch just don't translate to modern techniques all that well.

Yes, old Colt revolvers worked just as well as modern Glocks when Part A is .005" small, and Part B is .005" big. But Glocks work when your old Colt won't when Part A is .005" small and Part B is also .005" small--as modern machinery tends to run things, when hand-fitting didn't--because then there's suddenly a .01" gap. New designs tend to compensate for that.

Aside from the quirks and drawbacks of modern techniques, or the relative work time to make them, sometimes it's just that old designs just aren't as good as the new ones.

 

[Onward Allusion]

#1 - Five to seven shot top-break or swing-out cylinder double-action 22LR the size of the old H&R Young America. Strong modern steel that can handle hyper-velocity 22LR cartridges. Smaller than a J-Frame, less likelihood of malfunctions, deep concealment.

#2 - CZ-83 chambered in 32 ACP with a polymer frame, night-sights, & a +2 mag by Mec-Gar using their proprietary +2 spring; that brings it to 17 or 18 round capacity. Imagine a pistol the size & weight of a Ruger LC9 or Kel-Tec PF9 with that kind of capacity.

 

[barnbwt]

I'd like to see someone bring back top-break DA's in any form. Making them in a real revolver caliber (not 22LR or 32S&W) would make them hot sellers. I also don't buy the perennial lines "but they're not strong enough" and "their tolerances are too demanding" because modern design/materials negates the former (I've run the numbers, they can easily be made strong enough for 454) and CNC machining of interchangeable parts negates the latter (as would a better latch design that is self tightening)

TCB

 

[Billy Shears]

I'd like to see a 9mm, .380, .45 version of the P7. Single stack and double. Is that too much to ask?

Apparently yes, at least as far as the .45 is concerned.

http://hkp7.com/p7m7.htm

Apparently HK tried to make one in .45ACP, and they couldn't get it to work, so they replaced the gas retarded blow back system with a hydraulic buffer. The result was too expensive to make and they never went beyond the prototype stage.

The problem, apparently, was that the .45ACP is a round with comparatively very low chamber pressure. The 9mm is a high pressure round, and that means the gas tapped off into the expansion chamber below the barrel has all that pressure to hold the slide closed long enough to allow the chamber pressure to drop to safe levels. Evidently, it simply didn't work very well with the .45ACP.

HK did produce a .40S&W version that had a massive slide like a Hi Point out of concerns that the standard slide would not hold up for the more powerful .40S&W round. It seems that gas retarded blowback mechanism may have had a more narrow range of cartridge compatibility than some other systems; or at least, the system require more radical redesigns of its components to suit it to different cartridges.