Revolver or Auto

[BullpupBen]

Being 18, my experience with pistols is limited, but if and when I can carry I am gonna carry a revolver and heres why:

1. The most important thing with any tool you trust your life too is that it works, and theres almost no way a DA revolver can fail compared to an auto, the only thing more reliable is a derringer.

2. No worrying about cocking it and all that- just point at your target and start squeezing.

The only negatives:
-increased recoil
-harder to conceal due to increased length and the cylinder profile
-comparatively low capacity and hard to reload under extreme stress.

So weigh your options, but I'd take reliability over anything when your life's on the line.

 

[Ltlabner]

1. The most important thing with any tool you trust your life too is that it works, and theres almost no way a DA revolver can fail compared to an auto, the only thing more reliable is a derringer.

2. No worrying about cocking it and all that- just point at your target and start squeezing.

Statement 1 is flat out false. Revolvers are not immune from failure. They are certinaly less prone than autos but saying "theres almost no way a DA revolver can fail" is a complety inaccurate.

Statement 2: Striker fired automatics and SA/DA autos with decockers do not require cocking prior to firing. Chamber a round (decock if appropriate), holster and then aquire target, align sights and press trigger. No more complicated that a DAO revolver no? If you carry them in condition 1 there's no "cocking it and all that" prior to use.

Revolvers are great and I'm not touting autos over revolvers, however, the continued myth that automatics are somehow so complex as stymie anyone short of a PhD rocket scientist from operating them is just that....a myth.

 

[DougDubya]

The same "perfect" .38 Special load that didn't get the job done during the infamous FBI Miami Shootout of 1986. Revolvers were still the official primary duty issue weapon of the FBI at that point in time. After the shootout, the FBI promptly retired the revolver as an issue sidearm.

Really? Does your fairy tale version of the FBI firefight show 158-grain SWC-HP's in vital, life ending areas of Platt and Matix?

Mireles put three into each which became the end of the fight.

Who else hit them?

The revolver has been virtually extinct as both a law enforcement and military sidearm in every single country in Europe, for several decades now.

Europe. Where freedom has been abandoned, and violent young rioters murder unarmed civilians at a whim. If Europe made it fashionable to breathe oxygen, I'd get surgery to replace my lungs with something that breathed something else.

It's also important to note that in the case of the FBI and the vast majority of law enforcement agencies that have adopted semis, that the demand for them originated from the rank-and-file (RAF) officers and the police unions/patrolmen's associations that actively represent the RAF.

The agents and officers in the street DEMANDED semi-autos, because their low capacity, slow reloading revolvers were simply no match for gangbangers and other criminals packing semi-auto weapons.

You're talking capacity and shootability, not "fight-stopping power." Even the low capacity Model 39 by Smith and Wesson increased the ability of their users to hit targets to 66% as opposed to 25% for the rank and file Barney Fife brigade.

RAF officers

Royal Air Force? I'd tell the limeys to sod off too. If they're not American citizens, they shouldn't even have toothpicks. 'Course, this is for sheer hate of the nanny state under the Houses of Lords and Commons, those unforgivable thieves of liberty.

 

[jad0110]

The long, heavy 8 to 9 pound trigger pull of the revolvers was the culprit in virtually every case.

One guy with a .357 Magnum failed to qualify, and tried to claim that there was something wrong with his gun, which just happened to be his own personal weapon.

One of the intructors picked up the weapon and fired a shot at the target, making an almost perfect hit in the center of the bullseye. He set down the weapon and remarked "Nothing wrong with the gun."

Actually, that tells me that it isn't the 8 to 9 pound trigger pull, but the user (software problem). DA wheelguns have a way of highlighting poor trigger control better than your typical semiauto (as Jerry Miculek himself has pointed out). IMO, the 1911 platform in particular is good at covering up bad trigger technique. That's one reason why I love a DA 22 for training purposes. Most people should see an improvement in their groups after practicing with a high quality DA 22. I know I did. I've gotten to the point now where I find the 12 lb pull of my 642 to be "reasonable" . 8 lbs feels light to me. Maybe my fingers are just Incredible Hulk strong.

My 642 could use some tuning though, to improve the break and slicken it up. Of course, that can be said of just about any handgun, revolver or auto. Had an XD9 with a trigger that I rated somewhere between "dreadful" and "junky" . When I first got my Springfield Armory 1911, the trigger mechanism (trigger bow specifically) felt like it had kitty litter in it . Rough, inconsistent let off too.

Certainly, a DA revolver pull isn't everyone's cup of tea. Just like DA/SA autos drive me nuts.

YMMV / to each his own.

---

As a first gun, as I said earlier, go with what feels best to you. Just remember with an auto to FIRST drop the loaded mag, then SECOND rack the slide to de-chamber the round. Don't do it the other way around!

 

[DougDubya]

Something I just transcribed from my novel notes, which applies to my opinion about the whole "autos are soooooo much better than revolvers" thing.

Laserka packed a bag, slipping her Makarov back onto her belt's inside the waistband holster. She draped her sweater over the handgun's butt to conceal it. She tucked another weapon, a tiny Glock 26, into her purse. She added two spare 15-shot magazines originally designed for the slightly larger Glock 19. Technically, the tiny Austrian auto was considered a better design than her trusted old Makarov, smaller in length and height, chambered for a more powerful cartridge, and holding 11 shots right off of the bat. Still, the Russian Mak was a flat, and its butt had room for all of her fingers on its comfortable grip. It just felt nicer than the teeny Glock. The 9mm Mak had never let her down. Laserka knew sentimentality toward a tool meant to keep her live was considered foolish, but she had an attachment that translated into comfort and superior skill.

For some people, familiarity trumps higher technology. I'm one of them. If that makes me a backwards fool, then I'll at least go to my reward with a favored item, not an uncomfortable compromise, in my hand.

 

[WVMountainBoy]

As my little signature may denote, I'm a fan of wheel guns. I've found them to be the most reliable machines that I've ever dealt with (pistols, cars, rifles, and computers to name a few) the only thing I've fooled with that was more rock solid was my NEF single shot 12 gauge. They do have their limitations, unless you're willing to dump a good bit into one of the 7 or 8 shot wheels, you're limited to 5 or 6, but the way I see it, its 5 or 6 that you can really depend on.

 

[machinisttx]

I have no idea what your post means.

Then I suggest you go back and read the last part of the sentence you originally quoted, which states that a person needs to practice more if they carry a revolver.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by DougDubya:
Really? Does your fairy tale version of the FBI firefight show 158-grain SWC-HP's in vital, life ending areas of Platt and Matix?

Mireles put three into each which became the end of the fight.

Who else hit them?

Doug continues to display his virtual complete ignorance of the FBI Miami shootout of 1986.

My version of events is fully supported and documented by Dr. William French Anderson, a world renown geneticist and forensic pathologist at the University of Southern California Keck School of Medicine.

At the time Mireles shot them, both Platt and Matix had been already completely incapacitated by other shots. Mireles was able to walk up to the car, stick his gun in the window and shoot both of the completely immobile perpetrators at near-point blank range.

A .22 could've done the job under those circumstances.

Platt was unconscious and Matix may have already been dead before Mireles ever fired a shot into the car.

With his 9mm semi-automatic, Agent Dove had done the lion's share of damage to Platt earlier in the shootout, when he made three solid hits as Platt attempted to exit the stolen vehicle through the passenger side window. One of Dove's hits went through Platt's arm and penetrated one of his lungs, coming to rest near his heart.

 

[DougDubya]

Which goes in complete opposition to EVERY OTHER ACCOUNT of the gunfight.

Dove hit Platt once.

You said the .38 Special round failed, but you only cite in your particular fairy tale that it was Dove, with his much superior autoloader, who supposedly did all the damage.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by DougDubya:
You're talking capacity and shootability, not "fight-stopping power." Even the low capacity Model 39 by Smith and Wesson increased the ability of their users to hit targets to 66% as opposed to 25% for the rank and file Barney Fife brigade.

Yes, and when the Smith Model 39 went on the market in 1955, virtually every law enforcement agency in the country was using revolvers.

Thanks for pointing out that the "rank and file" revolver-toting Barney Fifers who had only been scoring 25% with their markedly inferior revolvers, immediately improved their hit percentage by more than two and a half times after they adopted semi-automatics!

Just one more proof of the inherent natural superiority of even the early semi-automatics, over the dated 19th century technology of the revolver. With today's technology having widened the gap between semi-autos and revolvers even more, the semi-auto's technological and practical advantages have become virtually insurmountable.

Thus it's no big surprise that thousands of federal, state, county and local law enforcement agencies have switched to semi-autos in the last few decades.

 

[david_the_greek]

I picked up a S&W 442 over a keltec P3AT. Might I regret it in the future? Maybe. I like the 442, though I can't seem to hit poop with it yet. Definitely something for me to get used to... oh well more practice right In all honesty though, I LOVE my 1911, and like others said, the trigger is much different. For me, it does cover up my crappy trigger skills. But I shoot well with it. The revolver, head shots on the big human target at 7-10(?) yards, though not seemingly placed anywhere purposely, thats just where they ended up after I pointed in the direction. I hope I can get to love my 442 and shoot it well, the things conceals like a vial of coke up a smugglers butt

 

[Geronimo45]

At the time Mireles shot them, both Platt and Matix had been already completely incapacitated by other shots. Mireles was able to walk up to the car, stick his gun in the window and shoot both of the completely immobile perpetrators at near-point blank range.

Not according to this, which certainly appears to be quoting Anderson.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
Go to:
"IV. The Final Fusillade: Platt and Matix in Grogan/Dove’s Car"
Don't appear to have been 'completely incapacitated'.

 

[Claude Clay]

if you are gonna carry 24/7 by your 3rd gun you will likely have a 642. so get it 1st. some people are naturals with coordination and guns but for the many, get your feet wet with a revolver first.

 

[Ltlabner]

Then I suggest you go back and read the last part of the sentence you originally quoted, which states that a person needs to practice more if they carry a revolver.

I read it when I made my first responce to your post.

It totally ignores my point that no matter how much you practice you are likely to lose *some* amount of ability in a high stress situation. You may lose very little so that it makes no difference if you have 1 round or 1000 rounds.

But even with practice it is possible to lose some abilities during a real gunfight. Face it, even some highly trained operators can go to outerspace when in the thick of things (or at the very least do things that reduce their chances of COM hits). Less abilities due to stress & phisological responces means greater possibiliy for missing.

And having less ammo (i.e. having a revolver) means every miss has greater signifiance than a pistol with more ammo.

You seem to be pitting your incentive to make hits with a revolver against millions of years of phisological responces by humans. In my opinion, that's a horrable bet.

Revolver is a fine choice for carry, I just didn't agree with your one comment in your original post.

 

[Defensory]

According to Geronimo45's own source:

"By this time Mireles had reached the driver’s side door of Grogan/Dove’s car when he fired his sixth and final shot. Mireles extended his gun through the driver’s side window and fired at Platt (Platt chest/spine wound J). The bullet penetrated Platt’s chest just below the left collar bone, traveled through the musculature of the shoulder and neck and stopped in the fifth cervical vertebra (C5), where it bruised the spinal cord. Dr. Anderson observes that the wound path of this bullet through Platt’s body could only have occurred if Platt were lying on his back on the front seat.

Even if Platt wasn't COMPLETELY incapacitated, it certainly appears from your own source that he was certainly very close to being in that condition.

I'm extremely doubtful that Platt, a heavily armed former U.S. Army Special Forces soldier, would just lie down on his back and let somebody walk up and stick a gun in the window of the car and shoot him at near-point blank range, if Platt was NOT at least very nearly completely incapacitated.

The FBI, the medical examiner who did the original autopsy, and Dr. Anderson---ALL agree that agent Dove had earlier shot Platt with a 9mm round that had gone through his arm into his chest, penetrated his lung and lodged within an inch of his heart.

Platt had been shot 9 times before Mireles ever converged on the car and shot him at near-point blank range, including a round of 12-gauge buckshot that hit him in both of his feet, causing profuse bleeding.

Matix had taken a round in the head earlier in the fight, which incapacitated him for most of the shootout.

So even if Platt and Matix were not COMPLETELY incapacitated, they were both darn sure VERY NEAR death BEFORE Mireles approached and shot them.

As I stated earlier, .22LR semi-auto rounds could've got the job done at near-point blank range on perps who were already very near death. So the fact that Mireles was using a "wonder wheelie" is virtually irrelevant.

And according to the head of the FBI Firearms Training Unit at that time, the Miami shootout was the primary reason that the FBI DUMPED revolvers and went to high capacity semi-autos as their primary official issue sidearms.

 

[H2O MAN]

Revolver or Auto

Unless you are going Cowboy, I say go with the Auto right out of the box.
I purchased my first pistol around 1985 - it was a Glock 17.
I had fired a 1911 prior to that.

9 out of 10 Grandmothers agree.

 

[MrBorland]

My version of events is fully supported and documented by Dr. William French Anderson, a world renown geneticist and forensic pathologist at the University of Southern California Keck School of Medicine

.

Not to go off topic, but I've known about French Anderson professionally since 1990 or so. He was a biochemist/molecular biologist and pediatrician (he's now in prison for sexual abuse of a minor). AFAIK, he's not been trained as a forensic pathologist, and since he chose to publish his account of the FBI shootout as a book, I assume its content and accuracy was never validated by the peer review process. Probably a wise choice on his part, since he likely has no more expertise in this area than any other MD.

Though he made an important contribution to the then-fledgling field of Gene Therapy, he was known by many of his peers to not be above a little self-promotion and exaggeration. I haven't read his account, but I'd be very cautious about taking it as definitive. Just an FYI.

 

[btg3]

On the other hand revolvers are pretty fool proof as far as operation.

A revolver requires more practice to maintain sight picture with a DA trigger. In general, newbies will hit their target more easily with a semi-auto handgun.

As for complexity, if you can drive a car and/or use a cell phone, you can learn the manual of arms for your choice of revolver or semi-auto. Neither is rocket science. Determine your own preference and don't adopt someone else's.

Reliability? Avoid cheapo stuff whether revolver or semi-auto and you'll be fine.

 

[machinisttx]

I read it when I made my first responce to your post.

It totally ignores my point that no matter how much you practice you are likely to lose *some* amount of ability in a high stress situation. You may lose very little so that it makes no difference if you have 1 round or 1000 rounds.

But even with practice it is possible to lose some abilities during a real gunfight. Face it, even some highly trained operators can go to outerspace when in the thick of things (or at the very least do things that reduce their chances of COM hits). Less abilities due to stress & phisological responces means greater possibiliy for missing.

And having less ammo (i.e. having a revolver) means every miss has greater signifiance than a pistol with more ammo.

You seem to be pitting your incentive to make hits with a revolver against millions of years of phisological responces by humans. In my opinion, that's a horrable bet.

Revolver is a fine choice for carry, I just didn't agree with your one comment in your original post.

I will, in no way, deny that stress induces another factor into the equation. However, I see a lot of fail in the logic of "high capacity saves the day". A well practiced revolver user isn't at much disadvantage--if any.

 

[DougDubya]

Defensory - you were still comparing apples to giant blue elephants when you were talking about the "failed stopping power of the .38 FBI load" as the reason for going to high capacity, rapid fire, easier shooting autoloaders.

But then, you have some sort of agenda that ascribes suicidal ideations to folks who carry revolvers. As such, keep twisting the conversation, moving the goal posts, and continue obfuscation that a GENETICIST has more information about a gunfight than the agents involved, on scene forensic analysts, and guys who spoke to EVERYONE INVOLVED.

French Anderson might have been the father of DNA fingerprinting, but he probably couldn't tell a bullet from his own dingleberry, as Mr.Borland pointed out.

 

[win85shooter]

Posted by win85shooter:
Revolver. Everytime you pull the trigger it goes "bang". If it doesn't, pull the trigger again.
Really?!

Here's a revolver malfunction at a cowboy shoot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xl92P_mVDM

If you have the volume loud enough on your speakers, you can hear several clicks as the revolver repeatedly fails to fire.

Defensory................If I'm not mistaken, the video that you show with the misfires is both handloads (probably) and by all the smoke definitely BP. I guess I should have prefaced my comment with " use factory defensive loads for reliability". I would also recommend a DA revolver over a SA revolver although there are some very accomplished SA shooters out there........just not good reloaders.

Mike

 

[simpleguy]

I do both so I didn't vote. I love to carry my M&P .40, but hey....I occasionally compromise the way I dress so, I started to carry my Taurus Model 85. I have about a 50/50 split between revolver and autoloader carry now. But I am picking up a Smith 442-2 tomorrow as an upgrade to the Taurus(love hammerless, but it will probably make a trip to Grant Cunningham for some trigger work).

I do agree with the other posts I have read, get good LEATHER(love my Ted Blocker holster), get a GOOD belt made by a gun leather maker. they are worth their weight in gold to me.

I will also throw a vote in for the the Smart Carry holster, I carry both my M&P and my revolvers in them.

Last plug, if you are going to carry a revolver, I love the Bianchi Stripper Clips.

 

[Defensory]

Endorsements of the published report "Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight"; by W. French Anderson:

"The report will serve as a model for all of law enforcement in the area of crime scene reconstruction and will finally set the record straight on one of the most significant and tragic events in FBI history."

FBI Special Agent Gordon McNeill
Participant in the 1986 FBI Miami Shootout

"I would like the reader to know that to the extent that was humanly possible, Dr. W. French Anderson’s research and conclusions are correct. There might be some slight variation in the sequence of some of the events as we know them, but to the extent possible, the events documented are, to my knowledge, correct. The reader needs to bear in mind that this event was reconstructed by Dr. Anderson ten years after the fact. Four out of the ten participants are dead. We will probably never really know exactly what all their actions were, but I agree with Dr. Anderson’s forensic analysis."

FBI Special Agent Edmundo Mireles
Participant in the 1986 FBI Miami Shootout

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/03/0604-03a.htm


Game, set, match to Defensory!

 

[DougDubya]

You still are comparing apples (stopping power) to avacado-colored decorative lamps (the better shooting and reloading properties of autos over revolvers).

I call foot fault. Kindly put the goal posts BACK where you found them.

Oh... and note - lots of people take MONEY for those kinds of book blurbs.

Cash in pocket helps sell your credibility.

 

[machinisttx]

I love when people want to argue auto over revolver when the example they use is actually a question of rifle versus handgun. The wrong conclusions have been drawn from any number of real life incidents.


If the miami shootout is the one I'm thinking of, both of the bad guys had long guns--one of them a mini 14 with plenty of spare magazines. Both were known to practice regularly(how many of the cops involved did?). The problem there was cops brought handguns to a rifle fight--it was not a problem of
capacity--and it could have also been an issue of marksmanship on the part of the officers involved.

Autoloaders didn't do the cops one damn bit of good at the bank heist in LA, but it did allow them to miss a lot. They did make a few hits, so maybe quantity made up for quality(?)...even though the shots were wasted, only hitting body armor. The perps got dropped quick once rifles came into play on the officer's side.

Basic fact is that if you can't hit, it won't matter how many rounds you fire or what caliber they are--at least until the lawyers get involved. 15 fast misses and a hit on #16 can still get you killed. The only thing you've accomplished is increasing the odds of hitting a bystander..

carry what you shoot(regularly)
Shoot what you carry(regularly)
Do it until you don't have to think about it to get the job done.

YMMV