rude range...would you return?

[Drysdale]

There is only one public range in my county and it never was my first choice, but these days, it's the only range within 30 miles.

Everytime I go there these days there are more and more rules. The latest one really ticked me off, get this. You can not bring your own ammo anymore. You must purchase it from the range, no exceptions. There is no more "rapid fire" allowed. There must be 1-2 seconds between shots. So much for double-tap practice. You can no longer draw from a holster and fire your gun. The list is much longer, but you can see that this place is turning into a "no fun allowed zone" IMO.

I may start going to the range in the next county. I have more that enough rules to follow on the job. I don't need to be resticted like a moron while I enjoy my hobby.

As to the buying of ammo, people were probably shooting FMJ there or something and tearing up their backstops too quickly...

 

[AmYisraelChai]

And there it is people...
The lowest common denominator.

That is so wrong on so many levels - the most insulting of which is that it assumes everyone is on that lowest level and must be treated accordingly.

When did it become the right thing to pander to the stupid and incompetent among us; to design our society around those who can't instead of those who can? :banghead:

Again, we are not talking about some Utopia, we are talking about a live firing range. The lowest common denominator can get you killed, so can the self professed competent. And I cant tell who is who just by looking.

It is not a society, it is a business that is designed to exchange goods and services for a profit. In doing so and taking into account the very special considerations that a live firing range require, rules must exist that tend towards a wost case scenerio.

 

[Drysdale]

I'm startin' to really love my local range after reading this!

They won't allow non-brass casings (though some revolver users can get a waiver if they police their non-brass), but they're okay with users picking up their own brass. Since they do sell the brass that's left, it's strictly honor system...plus an excellent CCTV system for the RO!

It does have a fetaure I have not seen elsewhere, even at the big range in Plano: floor-to-ceiling bulletproof partitions between each position! One too many novice shooters had trouble with "downrange" so the boss decided to not push his luck.

A decent range is a treasure. (Especially an indoor one). It's worth trying to de-escalate the occasional jerk to be able to shoot someplace you (otherwise) enjoy.

--H

Since you mentioned Plano, you must be in D/FW... Which range areyou going to?

 

[AmYisraelChai]

Also, on the topic of Zero Tolerance, I am a firm believer in Darwin. Novices should be well taught in the correct way to do things, then if they don't learn the lesson, then they pay the price. Same thing if a kid shoots himself or a friend w/ his dad's gun. The parent should have learned to lock up his guns and taught his kids not to play with them now he has a dead son. We don't need more laws to tell people what they should allready know. We have a law, it's the law of reality. If you are fooling around on a range and you shoot someone you will be punnished. I would rather be shot by some fool than live in a world that treats me like a babe in swaddling(sp?) clothes.

Call it crass, call it cold-hearted, that is my belief.

I understand your angst, but I dont think it takes into account the whole truth of the situation. If you get hurt on a range, The person pushied is not only the person who did it, but the owner who may lose his lively hood and everything he has.

BTW, at a private range, they are not "Laws" they are rules. You may chose to not use the range.

And this is not directed at you, so dont take it personaly, but all the people that proclaim something to the effect about how they are capable of doing it their own way because they posess whatever it takes to be so smart and skilled, why do people with such talent and ability have to shoot at a range anyways? Shouldnt these people be driving their Lamborghinies to their own private spread?

 

[c_yeager]

If you are fooling around on a range and you shoot someone you will be punnished. I would rather be shot by some fool than live in a world that treats me like a babe in swaddling(sp?) clothes.

So you honestly find the prohibition against handling weapons during cease fire to be this intrusive into your life? Its just a little too much for you to handle? Well, like I said you are welcome to shoot on public land. Personally, I would rather live with not handling my firearms for a whole 10 minutes than get shot by some idiot.

Seriously I think a few of out members here need to get out and face some GENUINE hardships in their lives, just to get some perspective. If simple range safety rules make you feel like your have something in common with people who died in the Holocaust, or that the whole world is falling apart as a result, I think that you have a really twisted view on the world that is built from never having had to deal with something that is *actually* unjust or difficult. In other words, maybe if you would step out of your little envelope of safety and comfort maybe you would learn about the things that are actually worth getting in a fret over, heres a hint; range rules aint one of them.

 

[simon691]

Next time were a hat or cap and put a fake mustache on. If they treat you better then go back and be your own self to see if they treat you any different. Oh and make sure to put a hidden video on the cap/hat and on the button of your shirt.

 

[Deathrider1579]

Ok I am going to relate my pbs situation and I am prolly going to get chewed out for it but I wan't to know what the deal is so please be nice or at least cordial in the tearing of my new one

A few months ago I went out to the range to get some practice, I brought along my AR and my .22 rifles and my .22 pistol. So I go about my busness being the ONLY one on this range I shoot for about 20 minutes with no problem.
I start packing up and get my rifles into the case that I have laying on the shooting bench (this is an out door range). So I look arround and the only other people out are some guys over at the 600 yd range shooting high power (the 600 yd range is set at an angle so its safe to be down range on either when the other line is hot + there is a berm.) Any how I decide to do some practice with my pistol closer up at IDPA ranges and practice some drills. I know a .22 isnt for IDPA but I figure sights are sights and practiceing is alwase a good thing so, I walk out a few meeters (like 10 or 15 towards the 25 meeter target) and start doing some drills when I get these two guys who look like nam' vets running full tilt across the feild from the 600 yard range screaming at the top of their lungs that I should not be shooting there as im not at the fireing line.... I said that it was fine because I was the only one their and the firing line was where I was. They said rules are rules, so I packed up and left.

1. The situation was safe no danger of hitting anyone as there was a berm that all my rounds were landing in.
2. The situation was safe as I was alone on that range.

Did I do anything wrong? I don't see that I did but I could be wrong.

I still shoot there but I don't like a lot of the members who treat me like im fresh off the school bus and have never shot a firearm in my life grrr.


-DR

 

[callgood]

We sometimes don't appreciate how lucky we are. My primary range has no range officer. It is a small family run range and we are all "Range Officers." If anyone sees a problem, they speak up. You can bring your own ammo and leave it for them to resell or pick it up.

If the owner sees or is informed of unsafe practices he comes down like ugly on a monkey, but it is very rare.

Only negative is the rifle range is only 100 yards and semi autos must be okeyd by the owner ahead of time. No rapid fire. On the other hand I went by one afternoon on a slow day and a couple of LEO/mil types were shooting sub guns on the pistol range. When they left they asked, do you reload? You are welcome to our brass."

All in all a good place, and 7.00 for all day (and a great lunch counter).

 

[Sinsaba]

So you honestly find the prohibition against handling weapons during cease fire to be this intrusive into your life? ...

I do believe the post that you are talking about was about the blind unthinking application of a rule. Not did the rule itself cause a problem. We all laugh (and I suspect curse) when we read about the blind application of the rule "no guns at school" whereby some student gets expelled for bringing a totally, easily visable, nonfunctioning model of a gun to school.

We all talk about the stupidity, the unthinking application of such a rule. But when it comes to the sacred rules of the range some think that it is right to throw thought out the window.

I believe that is the point that Werewolf was making and he is right. Anytime you turned off your brain, you have turned off the one thing that makes us different than animals.

 

[FPrice]

I believe that is the point that Werewolf was making and he is right. Anytime you turned off your brain, you have turned off the one thing that makes us different than animals.

Understanding the rules and being able to follow them requires a brain.

 

[AmYisraelChai]

I still dont get what the fuss is. Other than proclaiming yourself right, where is your leg to stand on?

First off, you handled a Firearm while someone was down range.

You set a poor example for someone who might not know anybetter.

You created a situation which could lead to a death.

you broke a rule you agreed to follow by shooting on a private range.


And again, if nothing else, Say you are a range officer or a safety minded fellow shooter. All they know is you were handling a firearm. It is not the fact that it shouldnt be able to or couldnt be able to fire, it is the fact that they have the DUTY to attend to something that appears to be very unsafe and neglagent. Your whole argument centers around the fact that AFTER the correction was made(Someone saw you handling a gun while someone else was downrange), you could "prove" that it wasnt needed becase the gun could not fire. That is rather rude of you and not a good application of common sense on your part. It all goes back to how is an RO supposed to tell who is who and what gun being handled is Ok to be handled. This is not a case of "Ha, the RO tried to correct me, but I go the best of him" This is a case of the person could not tell, made the appropriate correction that would not have been needed to be made had you not handled a firearm when you are not supposed to.

Dont handle firearms while people are down range.

 

[Werewolf]

I do believe the post that you are talking about was about the blind unthinking application of a rule. Not did the rule itself cause a problem. We all laugh (and I suspect curse) when we read about the blind application of the rule "no guns at school" whereby some student gets expelled for bringing a totally, easily visable, nonfunctioning model of a gun to school.

We all talk about the stupidity, the unthinking application of such a rule. But when it comes to the sacred rules of the range some think that it is right to throw thought out the window.

I believe that is the point that Werewolf was making and he is right. Anytime you turned off your brain, you have turned off the one thing that makes us different than animals.

That's all I was trying to say. Thank you Sinsaba for being way more eloquent than I.

 

[Werewolf]

I still dont get what the fuss is. Other than proclaiming yourself right, where is your leg to stand on?

First off, you handled a Firearm while someone was down range.

OKAY... But a revolver without a cylinder isn't really a firearm.

You set a poor example for someone who might not know anybetter.

Nope... no one else on that range except my wife and she knew exactly what I was doing.

You created a situation which could lead to a death.

That's a pure unadulterated, stinking pile of bovine excrement. A revolver without a cylinder isn't going to cause anyone's death - well - maybe if you konked someone over the head with it.

you broke a rule you agreed to follow by shooting on a private range.

No I didn't. A revolver without a cylinder isn't a freaking firearm. It's a chunk of metal at best - a club at worst.

Why is that so hard to understand? NO ONE WAS IN DANGER! The rules can't cover every circumstance. That's why there are judges. GOD! ZERO TOLERANCE IS 2ND ONLY TO PC IN IT'S TYRANNY.

And again, if nothing else, Say you are a range officer or a safety minded fellow shooter. All they know is you were handling a firearm.

NO! I held it up and showed the guy no cylinder. I even said "look, no cylinder" but he persisted.:banghead:

It is not the fact that it shouldnt be able to or couldnt be able to fire,

NO... That is exactly the point... The weapon was safed. I took out the cylinder just for that reason.

...it is the fact that they have the DUTY to attend to something that appears to be very unsafe and neglagent.

With that I will agree - right up to the point where it is shown that nothing negligent or unsafe is occuring.

Your whole argument centers around the fact that AFTER the correction was made(Someone saw you handling a gun while someone else was downrange), you could "prove" that it wasnt needed becase the gun could not fire. That is rather rude of you and not a good application of common sense on your part.

Why do you say that. There is nothing rude about pointing out that an unsafe condition doesn't exist. It was stupid of him and showed a lack of intelligence and judgement on his part to persist in trying to enforce a rule that under the circumstances just didn't apply. I admit that I did get rude with the guy but only after he persisted in his actions.

It all goes back to how is an RO supposed to tell who is who and what gun being handled is Ok to be handled.

He isn't - until - he's shown otherwise.

This is not a case of "Ha, the RO tried to correct me, but I go the best of him" This is a case of the person could not tell, made the appropriate correction that would not have been needed to be made had you not handled a firearm when you are not supposed to.

And yet after he was shown that no unsafe condition existed he persisted in trying to enforce an inapplicable rule. That's what made him a Range NAZI. Not the first action but the persistence in the face of hard evidence that no unsafe condition existed.

I suggest that all of those who profess that the Range NAZI was correct throw away all your cleaning equipment because according to the rule that all guns are always to be treated as loaded that you are unable to safely clean any of your weapons. ZERO TOLERANCE AFTERALL IS THE NAME OF THE GAME.

 

[Thefabulousfink]

amyisraelchai,

Thankyou for not attacking me in your post and in return I will not attack you.

I see you point, and I understand the need for rules. I just get so tiered of people tring to impose a nanny-state that I have become an extremist in the opposition. My intention is not to create an anarchist utopia with no rules whatsoever, but rather to get people to question the need to over-legislate every little common sense scenario in order to protect the type of people who are going to ingnore these laws anyway.


There, I have vented enough for today, thank you all for listening and being patient with me.

 

[AmYisraelChai]

OKAY... But a revolver without a cylinder isn't really a firearm.Nope... no one else on that range except my wife and she knew exactly what I was doing.That's a pure unadulterated, stinking pile of bovine excrement. A revolver without a cylinder isn't going to cause anyone's death - well - maybe if you konked someone over the head with it.No I didn't. A revolver without a cylinder isn't a freaking firearm. It's a chunk of metal at best - a club at worst.

Why is that so hard to understand? NO ONE WAS IN DANGER! The rules can't cover every circumstance. That's why there are judges. GOD! ZERO TOLERANCE IS 2ND ONLY TO PC IN IT'S TYRANNY.NO! I held it up and showed the guy no cylinder. I even said "look, no cylinder" but he persisted.:banghead: NO... That is exactly the point... The weapon was safed. I took out the cylinder just for that reason.With that I will agree - right up to the point where it is shown that nothing negligent or unsafe is occuring.Why do you say that. There is nothing rude about pointing out that an unsafe condition doesn't exist. It was stupid of him and showed a lack of intelligence and judgement on his part to persist in trying to enforce a rule that under the circumstances just didn't apply. I admit that I did get rude with the guy but only after he persisted in his actions.He isn't - until - he's shown otherwise.And yet after he was shown that no unsafe condition existed he persisted in trying to enforce an inapplicable rule. That's what made him a Range NAZI. Not the first action but the persistence in the face of hard evidence that no unsafe condition existed.

I suggest that all of those who profess that the Range NAZI was correct throw away all your cleaning equipment because according to the rule that all guns are always to be treated as loaded that you are unable to safely clean any of your weapons. ZERO TOLERANCE AFTERALL IS THE NAME OF THE GAME.

As far as you disagreeing with it could lead to a death, you practice poor habits that could either cause you or someone else to kill someone at a latter date.

Again, had you not handled a firearm when you were not supposed to, none of this would happen. The person did not know, he saw you with a gun when someone was down range. You created the appearance of an unsafe condition and violation of the rules. You did something and the exact right thing happened, you where corrected for doing something that required attention. That is the rude part.

I am seriously trying to keep this civil, Imagin everything I am saying to you are as if we are two old friends having a diference of opinion over a cold one. But by your logic, you would be justified to walk around in public with a realitic looking 100% fake gun. Since it is not real, and YOU know better, and you are not violating the law, what you are doing is OK, and the ensuing panic is not your fault and the Police who must respond are wrong. Is that fair of you to utilize police resources in that way? Would it be OK to go into a store and pretend to steal stuff? While you can not be punished for it because you did not actually steal anything, is the store guard in the wrong because he can not tell the diference? Is it right of you to make him waste his time in such a way?

It isnt about what you could and could not do with your disasembled gun. It is about others not knowing anybetter and the creation of even the appearence of an unsafe condition that requires the attention of those who do know better.

Dont handle a firearm while people are down rang.

 

[FPrice]

Dont handle a firearm while people are down rang.

Why is such a simple concept so difficult for (some) people to understand?

 

[AZ Jeff]

AmYisraelChai posted
"It all goes back to how is an RO supposed to tell who is who and what gun being handled is Ok to be handled."

To which Werewolf replied: "He isn't - until - he's shown otherwise."

This is PLAINLY A WRONG ASSUMPTION when shooting on a public range.

I have been shooting on public ranges and elsewhere for 40+ years. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen shooters start handling firearms in all states of condition while persons are downrange. And in each case, the RO did not run up and examine the firearm, and make a judgement call as to whether or not it's "safe" before telling the shooter to put the arm down.

The fact is, if an RO has to evaluate each and every case of firearm handling with persons downrange prior to declaring it a "safe" or "unsafe" act, his first clue that it's unsafe may be the sound of a discharge. Then it's too late.

If it's just you and me, on Werewolf's private range, we can set up rules as you suggest. I trust you, and you trust me. We know each other, and we are comfortable in that trust.

When it's dozens of strangers of unknown skills, we do not have that familiarity, and we cannot afford the risks with such unknowns. Hence, we adopt more rigid risk reduction policies.

If you cannot accept this fact, or see the difference, I wonder how much you have been exposed to shooting in such environments. It doesn't take long on a public range to see someone break one or more of the cardinal rules, plus local rules, and thankfully, there are RO's there to guard against the bad outcomes of such travesties.

 

[AJ Dual]

Oh...

Sorry.

I thought this was a thread about a nude gun range. The "r" and the "u" kinda run together when you're running at 1160x1280 resolution.

Never mind. Carry on.

As you were.

 

[Firethorn]

I'd give it one more chance... maybe talk to the owner. Then again I left my local range after they started implementing ridiculous rules like, "you have to bring a gun if you want to rent one of ours". At the very least bring it to someone's attention so maybe the higher ups will straighten this guy out.

That's an attempt to prevent suicides renting and killing themselves with one of the range's guns, on the property.

 

[FPrice]

I thought this was a thread about a nude gun range.

Now that's a whole different set of problems!

 

[FPrice]

I thought this was a thread about a nude gun range.

Now that's a whole different set of problems!



edited to add: Posted twice because on a "nude" range I'd probably look twice.

 

[MarkF45]

I would not go back to a rude range.

The original problem that started this thread is a judgment call (or else we wouldn't have so many different replies). I'm in favor of common sense over zero tolerance. Werewolf did not say if he was holding it one hand while filing the sight, or if it was on some type of stand. That would make a difference in how I handled the situation.

And there are ways to resolve problems that don't involve screaming.

 

[FPrice]

And there are ways to resolve problems that don't involve screaming.

More yelling: Ma'am! MA'AM! You can't go down range while someone is handling a gun. I told him to mind his own freaking business and take his inability to judge the circumstances and shove them up where the sun don't shine.

Considering Werewolf's own words and his subsequent vehement defense of his actions and attitudes, you maybe correct.

Throwing such a person off the range for a rule violation is much more appropriate.

 

[dwave]

More yelling: Ma'am! MA'AM! You can't go down range while someone is handling a gun. I told him to mind his own freaking business and take his inability to judge the circumstances and shove them up where the sun don't shine.

Rules are in place for a reason. The OWNER of the range makes the rules and it is the RO's job to enforce them that is his job. Even if you was the only person there, the rules should not be bent for you, and if you don't like them, shoot else where. They are put in place for 2 good reasons; 1 to keep people from getting hurt, and 2 to keep the owner from getting a big fat lawsuit. By the way, a gun without a cylinder is still a gun, not just a piece of metal, that is like saying a car without an engine is not a car. Me personally if I was working and you yelled at me for doing my job, and I had the power, I would have thrown you out. Yes I can think, but I want to keep my job and I would be unwilling to bend the rules.

Back on the subject, I would give them another try, and if they was stupid the second time I would complain and leave them for good.

 

[bumm]

This is one of very few hobbies where a careless accident can result in a death or a ruined life, so I can understand stringent rules and strict enforcement. On the other hand, I shoot for fun and a healthy respite from a rather stressful life. (I won't go into the boring details...) If I felt that a range had no respect for me as a customer, and I was made to feel uncomfortable there simply to feed an employee's ego, I'd be gone.
Marty