rude range...would you return?

[Missouri Mule]

Was this the manager, the owner or just some dipstick flunky who was so nasty to you?

If was just some turd with a tude I'd discuss it with the owner/boss and demand satisfaction, whatever that may be.

If that didn't work out ... I don't spend my $$ where they are not wanted.

I as a rule I have no problems in spreading the word! Good , bad or otherwise!

So, if the powers that be over that business condone the treatment their customer's like that ...Hell No I wouldn't go back.

 

[trueblue1776]

NUDE RANGE

Sorry.

I thought this was a thread about a nude gun range. The "r" and the "u" kinda run together when you're running at 1160x1280 resolution.

Never mind. Carry on.

As you were.

Me too, I was even gonna take some vacation time to check out this Nude range, instead it's a bunch of range Nazi's discussing how to yell at people who mind their own buisness.

Rules ARE rules.... especially at my nude range.

 

[runninmike]

Unfortunately, many of these ranges do not screen nor train professional people with a notion that happy customers usually return. Some of the places I've been to have wannabe something or other black tshirt wearing velcro warrior employees standing around behind the counter talking about all of their knowledge of guns and shooting technique and often rudely treat some unknown customer like this was the 1st time they ever frequented a range-oh and that they, the employee, is a supreme authority over all and to prove it, is wearing the latest greatest expensive trendy type pistol with same trendy holster and horizontal or upside-down mounted magazine pouches placed just so on their gunbelt with a spring clip pocket knife(or 2 of them) in pants pkt ready to flip open in an instant to rip open a new package of targets or a candy bar or clean their nails with in a pinch.(I carry one of these)
And, it seems like this is becoming a trend at the ranges here where I live. I hardly go out to the indoor ranges and fewer gunstores anymore unfortunately because of this scenario. And worse yet, the up and coming young shooters of the next generation have to put up with it if they want a place to shoot and try to enjoy. There are a few friendly places not too far that I am able to do my recreational shooting at, and also a few really nice stores to shop at, but not as many as in the past, where it seemed almost all of the gun stores and ranges shared a unspoken token of shooter comraderie and reciprocated common human respect.
If treated like a 2nd class citizen at your local range/gunshop, spend your dough elsewhere and write to the owner about your unpleasant visit with specific employees mentioned and chances are that this employee has been complained about before and will be terminated or made to be more professional.
Best-MC

ps- after reading some earlier posts on range rules and safety, I'll add that rules are meant to be followed at all times as mundane as they may seem to those who have even the most experience, and those who do have much experience will know that mundane rules are not there to corral smart folks with stupid ones, but rather to protect them from one another.

 

[STAGE 2]

I'm not sure what other rules they implemented, but that rule has a reason. The range down the street from my house had someone come in, rent a gun, then shoot himself in the head with it. That incident has led many ranges to implement rental rules like that, or "rentals only for groups of 2 or more" or similar.

I understand why they implemented the rule, but NO it does not have a reason. The forms that one signs to get a membership at this range encompasses rental guns and is a complete waiver of liability.

They are covering their ass for something that they already have covered. The only person that it hurts is honest people. Its a complete pain in the butt to go down to try out a new pistol that just came in, but then remember you have to lug out your range bag not to use anything in it.

Just another example of poor lawyering and poor drafting.

 

[dwave]

I don't believe that poor lawyers are the only blame for that rule you are referring to STAGE 2, look at it this way: yes the waiver states that you will not be liable, but if someone comes to your range, rents a gun, and shoots himself in front of you, you will have to live with that image for the rest of your life. I don't know about you, but that is something that I would not want to see.

Maybe though there could be a compromise to that rule where you must either have a gun already, or come in a group. For people that have been coming for 1 year (or whatever), or have already brought a gun once, won't have to follow that rule anymore.

 

[ArmedBear]

I don't believe that poor lawyers are the only blame for that rule you are referring to STAGE 2, look at it this way: yes the waiver states that you will not be liable, but if someone comes to your range, rents a gun, and shoots himself in front of you, you will have to live with that image for the rest of your life. I don't know about you, but that is something that I would not want to see.

Maybe though there could be a compromise to that rule where you must either have a gun already, or come in a group. For people that have been coming for 1 year (or whatever), or have already brought a gun once, won't have to follow that rule anymore.

Yeah, that's about what the range does where it actually happened. There's no reason to go further.

 

[STAGE 2]

I don't believe that poor lawyers are the only blame for that rule you are referring to STAGE 2

Actually, yes they are. A competent lawyer should be able to properly draft a document that give the range complete liability protection without hindering good faith customers.

look at it this way: yes the waiver states that you will not be liable, but if someone comes to your range, rents a gun, and shoots himself in front of you, you will have to live with that image for the rest of your life. I don't know about you, but that is something that I would not want to see.

Your two statements have nothing to do with each other. Not renting a gun to someone is no guarantee that they will not commit suicide at the range. There are plenty documented stories of suicides at ranges where the person in question used their own pistol.

Furthermore, whether or not I want to see some guy check out has nothing to do with me wanting to be able to try a new gun without jumping through some unnecessary hoop.

Maybe though there could be a compromise to that rule where you must either have a gun already, or come in a group. For people that have been coming for 1 year (or whatever), or have already brought a gun once, won't have to follow that rule anymore.

Possibly, but the particular range I am refering to has many additional problems other than this stupid rule, so common sense isn't widely available.

 

[AmYisraelChai]

Actually, yes they are. A competent lawyer should be able to properly draft a document that give the range complete liability without hindering good faith customers.




.

I assume you mean "takes away the ranges liability" or something to that effect.

I also assume you are not a Lawyer. For the most part, waivers are meaningless in most all situations, no matter how well written. The courts do not give much weight or consideration to a document that has you sign your rights away. Case Law is very overwheelming on this issue. As a matter of fact, in a great many cases, people have been held less liable when no waiver was involved. When a waiver is involved, you have a written instrument that states you know some unsafe condition exists, yet you are still willing to accept consideration (money) for allowing people to do it under your direct or indirect control.

 

[dwave]

Actually, yes they are. A competent lawyer should be able to properly draft a document that give the range complete liability without hindering good faith customers.

Actually, no they are not always to blame. It is easy to put it on them when it hits the fan, but there is more to it than a well written document as AmYisraelChai has stated.

Your two statements have nothing to do with each other. Not renting a gun to someone is no guarantee that they will not commit suicide at the range. There are plenty documented stories of suicides at ranges where the person in question used their own pistol.

Yes they do have lots to do with each other. I said that IF a place had a good waiver, the owner still may decide to place a rent rule just to help prevent someone from blowing their brains out. Maybe there are documented stories about people using their own guns at ranges, but most people will do it at home or someplace else if they own their own gun.

 

[STAGE 2]

I also assume you are not a Lawyer.

Then you would be mistaken.

For the most part, waivers are meaningless in most all situations, no matter how well written.

...still mistaken

The courts do not give much weight or consideration to a document that has you sign your rights away.

...the agreement that I signed for membership at this range hardly qualifies as "signing my rights away".

As an attorney I reserve the right to blame attorneys first. I don't think its a stretch to say that a majority of our problems as gun owners have been caused by lawyers. I'm sure this can be carried over to society as a whole. To be perfectly frank I'd say only about 20% of the bar is actually knowledgable enough to competently practice. This isnt arrogance, but simply first hand experience.

In our case, given the particular language of the waiver that I signed, barring any gross negligence by the desk clerk in renting the gun, they aren't gonna be liable if someone commits suicide. Can a party sue... sure, but that doesn't mean they can collect. I guess if the range is really that paranoid then they can go with their "belt and suspenders" policy. But they do so at the risk of losing paying customers, and I am only one of many that have left made the choice to leave this range because of their ridiculous regulations.

 

[Otherguy Overby]

I shoot on my land. No range nazis allowed.

 

[AmYisraelChai]

Then you would be mistaken.



...still mistaken




...the agreement that I signed for membership at this range hardly qualifies as "signing my rights away".

As an attorney I reserve the right to blame attorneys first. I don't think its a stretch to say that a majority of our problems as gun owners have been caused by lawyers. I'm sure this can be carried over to society as a whole. To be perfectly frank I'd say only about 20% of the bar is actually knowledgable enough to competently practice. This isnt arrogance, but simply first hand experience.

In our case, given the particular language of the waiver that I signed, barring any gross negligence by the desk clerk in renting the gun, they aren't gonna be liable if someone commits suicide. Can a party sue... sure, but that doesn't mean they can collect. I guess if the range is really that paranoid then they can go with their "belt and suspenders" policy. But they do so at the risk of losing paying customers, and I am only one of many that have left made the choice to leave this range because of their ridiculous regulations.

Anytime you sign a document with exculpatory clauses you are in theory signing away a right of future recourse. Again, the courts are in the business of scrutinizing such things and will render them non enforceable for any number of reasons. Again, case law is such that it is within sound legal judgment to put into place policies that would reduce the chance of said event occurring, as opposed to relying on any form of hold harmless or waiver of liability document. in the event of Suicide in particular, this is even more of an issue as it is well beyond the risks that are usual and incidental to a gun range.

And as an observation, nothing more, you claim to be a Lawyer that makes the firm statement that only 20% of the bar is competent, yet in your first statement regarding this in another post, you place liability on the range as the solution.

 

[jashobeam]

Some of you should try working at a range

Seriously! We, the employees, want things to run smoothly--business as usual. Anytime ANYONE breaks rules it is stressful. Bang-bang-bang-bang-bang. Some idiot rapid-firing. Every shooter knows this is a no-no because this is one of three rules explained to every shooter. Sometimes the perpetrator turns out to be an LEO who thinks that because he's a cop he has the right to handle his firearm any way that he sees fit (even on Ladies' Night when the range is packed).

The three rules that EVERY shooter at our range agrees to comply with by placing his initials next to each rule are as follows:

1. No rapid fire
This is an indoor range. We want people to hit the target, not the target carriers or the walls or the ceiling or the floor. Hitting the target carriers, which are made of steel, can result in ricochets.

2. No double taps
Same reason as above.

3. No head shots
We do not allow head shots on silhouette targets (or intentionally high shots on bulls-eye targets) because of the steel carriers that hold the targets. Also, (and this applies to all three rules as well) the target carriers move to and fro on a small nylon rope. A high miss could (and often does) sever the rope, rendering the shooting lane inoperable until the staff makes time to repair it.


As far as suicide prevention rules, from what I understand it is not the danger of a lawsuit but the danger of the city considering our business unsafe and refusing to allow us to operate within its limits. Too many accidents/deaths/suicides do not win favor. We must enforce efforts to minimize potential injuries. Allowing rules to be broken increases risk of accidents and leaves us vulnerable to be scrutinized by a local or state government agency. There are many regulations regarding firearms stores and indoor ranges. If someone (like an anti) were to document unsafe conditions or frequent unchecked disregard of range rules, a case could possibly be made to have the city close down the range. I am not a range owner, an RO, or a lawyer. I am an $8/hr employee who enjoys guns and likes to see people experience the joy of target shooting and gun ownership.

PS--All of the employees at the range are pretty cool about reprimanding rule-breakers. Everyone makes mistakes and gets a little carried away now and then; we understand. But don't make us confront you or your group twice on the same visit or the privilege of deciding to patronize our range may be removed from you.

 

[Molon Labe]

So why is "rapid fire" forbidden at most ranges?

 

[trueblue1776]

So why is "rapid fire" forbidden at most ranges?

same reason you don't drop the soap in prison, because you may get F'd in the A by some nazi.

 

[dwave]

1. No rapid fire
This is an indoor range. We want people to hit the target, not the target carriers or the walls or the ceiling or the floor. Hitting the target carriers, which are made of steel, can result in ricochets.

That is the reason for no rapid fire.

 

[NineseveN]

Every time I see this topic in the forum list, I swear I see "Nude range...would you return?"

Then I think about it, and I don't think I would given the low biscuit to sausage ratio at most ranges.

 

[Lupinus]

Every time I see this topic in the forum list, I swear I see "Nude range...would you return?"

Hell no, most of the people at te range I go to are older guys....now on the night they do shooting classes for ladies

 

[STAGE 2]

Anytime you sign a document with exculpatory clauses you are in theory signing away a right of future recourse. Again, the courts are in the business of scrutinizing such things and will render them non enforceable for any number of reasons.

In certian cases yes, however this isn't a blanket statement by any means. If exclupatory clauses were useless then why do they appear in virtually every contract that is signed. We arent talking about anything unconscionable or a situation where the bargaining power of the parties in question is skewed. Nor is this agreement some huge boilerplate in size 4 font thats 13 pages long. The situations that you are citing arise occasionally, but given the ratio of successful contracts to judgments rendered, the amount of contracts overturned based on a limitation of liability is very small.

Again, case law is such that it is within sound legal judgment to put into place policies that would reduce the chance of said event occurring, as opposed to relying on any form of hold harmless or waiver of liability document. in the event of Suicide in particular, this is even more of an issue as it is well beyond the risks that are usual and incidental to a gun range.

Not necessarily. There is nothing preventing the range from addressing the suicide issue within the waiver. While I realize that most if not all people would like the feeling of extra legal protection, my point is that the added protection in this case is nothing but a "feeling". Even with the policy in place, if a suicide occurs the range will undoubtedly be sued. The question isn't how to keep them out of court, its how to keep them from having to pay any damages. The policy that they have in place now hurts their business more than it protects it. As a good lawyer its your job to give your client all of the options and outcomes and allow them to determine what is in their best interests. I have a feeling that this was not the case for this range.

And as an observation, nothing more, you claim to be a Lawyer that makes the firm statement that only 20% of the bar is competent, yet in your first statement regarding this in another post, you place liability on the range as the solution.

I don't claim to be anything. I worked very hard for my JD and I have met and read about enough other attorneys to have a rational basis for my statement about the bar. I dont see why this is so shocking. Look at any other profession. Most any gunsmith can polish a feed ramp or tweak a gun. But how many gunsmiths can do it well? How many can do it well enough to where youd trust your life to it? The number gets a whole lot smaller.

There are plenty of attorneys out there and most can do what you ask. The good ones are the ones that dont just do what the client asks but goes beyond it and asks whether this is truly in the best interests of the client and if not what alternatives can I present.

As for my liability comment, I was making dinenr and posting at the same time. Even the best attys are entitled to a typo on a gun board now and then.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

If it was the first time in 2 years, give 'em another shot. Be sure that you get the RO's name before you shoot. That way, if it does happen again, you know who to report and explain that if something is not done about rude treatment, you're done with that range. If it happens a third time, or the second time is worse, forget 'em. There's other places.

I won't be lectured at by some idiot over something I didn't do. I would have told him off and left for good.

Insert the second quote into the first, and that's how I feel. If I deserve it, I'll take all the gas somebody throws at me, up to a point, of course. If I don't deserve it, you've just PO'd somebody that loves to scream back.

 

[SR_]

Send a letter to the owner of the range that basically restates what you put in your initial post. See what they say. Leave out your dad's comment.

Pehaps they have an employee that needs to an major attitude adjustment.

If you don't get a satisfactory response, then you have your answer. Go to the other range.

Life is just to short to deal with rude people.

 

[deadin]

Just a couple of observations:
If I were downrange and spotted someone handling a gun behind me, I would go to the RO and request that that person be ejected. Why should I trust some stranger to decide that his gun is "safe" when I am the one that might take it in the shorts if he made a mistake. (Also see my comment on "Zero Tolerance" below)

Why no "rapid fire" when all of your shots are hitting paper? Because the RO is probably sick and tired of trying to explain to the twerp three stations down why he can't act the same way. (Plus he doesn't have the time to specifically watch you to make sure they are "all" staying on target. He needs to police the whole line.)

Zero Tolerance? A real pain, but in certain situations, an absolute necessity. Safety on a firing range being one of them. Zero Tolerance levels the playing field for everybody. It's one rule that should be easy to understand and obey. Not, "Let's see, Position 5 has an expert in it so we can cut him some slack, Position 8 is a novice, so it's full rules for him. Position 11 might be OK to ease up on, but I will need to watch him. Now where was that expert? 4 or 6?
For those that don't believe in Zero Tolerance all I can say is "How many babies is it OK for a nurse to drop in the maternity ward?"

And for the 17 year old that was pissed because the rules said you must be 18 to rent movies at the library and he was "only" 7 days from being 18.
Why not bend the rules and say "Well, 7 days early is OK". How about 8 days? How about a month ? How about a year? The line has to be drawn somewhere. Too bad if it affects you. You'll outgrow it.

 

[GoBrush]

Since the 2nd closest range is only 20 minutes further "Go The Distance" and tell your friends to do the same. Man I get tired of these idiots.

 

[blacklisted]

The Range Master at Chabot was an egotistical JERK who yelled at me. I calmly took it and then yelled back, pointing out his error and embarassing him in the presence of his subordinate range masters. He fumbled an apology and I brushed him off. He deserved every bit of it. I never went back either.

Is there any way you could post the story? It sounds interesting. I go there sometimes and I have noticed that it is an entirely different place on weekdays. On weekends it is crouded and they are always yelling at someone. Most of the time the yelling is deserved (I see a lot of "ghetto" folks there). It's a decent place but I always feel like I'm being scrutinized because I'm younger than most shooters.

I go there because it's the only range in this area who I don't worry about checking my ID and giving me hell for shooting a handgun when I'm under 21 (I'm 18 and have the HSC).

I love reading range nazi threads, they make everything seem better because I haven't had the misfortune of seeing a range nazis yet.