Run, Hide, FIGHT

[Plan2Live]

As the dust settles over the Orlando nightclub shooting it appears none of the club goers fought the attacker. If there are reports to the contrary I haven't seen them.

The point of this post is a reminder that if we ever find ourselves in a similar situation we can't forget the FIGHT part even if we are in a non-permissive environment or are unarmed for any number of other reasons. It is my belief if you are within 10 feet of a shooter you really have no option other than to rush the shooter, especially a shooter with a long arm. Once you are close in they can't engage you with that rifle. Some will say "he had a pistol". Okay so he has a pistol, on his strong side and he is already holding a rifle and most likely using his strong hand to hold that rifle. Remember Tueller and rush. Use your knowledge of how firearms work and either disarm the shooter or temporarily disable the firearm by ejecting the magazine, engaging the safety, creating a fail to eject with a pistol or grip the cylinder on a revolver preventing it from operating while you kick, punch, stab, slash, gouge eyes or anything else you have to do to survive.

Obviously obtaining training in hand to hand techniques goes without saying but I think everyone also needs to think these scenarios through and develop a plan well in advance. Again, not breaking any new ground here, just posting a reminder.

 

[lemaymiami]

There's an additional component to this tragedy that hasn't been mentioned much - and can be fixed by any city.... Building codes have some very specific requirements about fire escapes, etc. but I'm guessing they're not being enforced in Orlando.... If I were the mayor or police chief in any town I'd be making a point of lighting a fire under my inspectors and acting promptly against any establishment not obeying these safety requirements... Yes, you stand and fight with no other option - but the patrons of that shooting site were caught in a cage - literally.... If fire doors and other points of retreat hadn't been locked down the casualty list would have been a lot smaller.... Just guessing here but I imagine there will be a few "wrongful death" suits over this - based solely on the fire escape violations....

Years ago as a young cop I took many an "off-duty" job working outside one night club or other. Most may not be aware that there's a specific statute on the books here in Florida that prevents an officer from working inside any establishment that sells alcohol (primarily) so you end up working the parking lot and front door area (whatever the business requires) and only come inside when there's a specific problem (usually after it's gotten out of hand - but that's another story...). Every place I ever worked had more than a few ways to exit if a fire or other problem occurred -not just through the front door... I have difficulty believing that inspectors weren't aware of that situation and looking the other way - but that's just me being cynical (no one ever looks the other way, now do they?)....

Lastly, although this was a deliberate slaughter involving a single individual who was well armed and had a plan.... Anyone with bad intentions could have gotten a much higher body count with less that $50 worth of supplies and no firearm at all - given the situation at that building... No I won't speak about means or methods but it could easily be done. Lots more to think about for authorities and ordinary citizens if we're really going to improve safety for club-goers or any location where numbers of people gather and could be easily trapped by an individual or group intending harm....

 

[TimSr]

During the 911 attacks, passengers on 3 of the 4 planes did not fight. On 912, we finally figured out the "nobody moves, nobody gets hurt" no longer applied.

While its easy to blow this off as "Monday morning quarterbacking", it is notable that in spite of the billions spend to upgrade airline security, in every thwarted attempt to take an airline, or incident even to subdue unruly passengers, it has been other passengers that have taken the lead, and kept order.

 

[joem1945]

I also had that thought about no one rushing the gunman. if your going to be shot and killed what have you got to loose by surging forward. At least you may have a chance but standing there you have no chance at all.

 

[Havok7416]

"Remember Tueller" seems like a great battle cry, except Tueller really doesn't apply if they have the gun up and are already shooting.

For that matter, we don't know that anyone did or didn't try. We just know no one was OBSERVED engaging the shooter. It's entirely possible someone tried and was cut down, but in the confusion it just looked like they were running out. About the last thing I'm doing if bullets are flying is spectating and taking notes. YMMV there.

 

[P5 Guy]

The attack was on a group/culture least likely to fight back. Weapons or not it is doubtful any other response other than freeze in place or flight would come about.

 

[old lady new shooter]

the patrons of that shooting site were caught in a cage - literally.... If fire doors and other points of retreat hadn't been locked down the casualty list would have been a lot smaller....

Last night I learned that over 60 lives were actually saved by a fine young man who succeeded in opening one of those doors, see http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/sto...s-during-orlando-nightclub-shooting/85860320/

 

[Devonai]

The attack was on a group/culture least likely to fight back.

You mean 99% of civilians?

 

[Plan2Live]

"Remember Tueller" seems like a great battle cry, except Tueller really doesn't apply if they have the gun up and are already shooting.

Tueller concluded that the average person could cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. If you are within 21 feet of the shooter and they aren't looking directly at you, the odds are still in your favor for rushing the shooter. Add a mag change to the equation and the odds in your favor increase. Or you can discard Tueller, assume the position and wait your turn.

My hope in posting this thread was to encourage people to place themselves in the victims shoes mentally and think through the possible options. If you polled the record breaking athletes I'll bet they would all tell you that before they completed that record breaking lift, finished the mile faster than anyone else ever had or jumped higher or further than anyone ever had, they visualized that moment thousands of times. Visualizing how you would react during a close encounter with a shooter and adding in the part where you apply legitimate tactics and survive can't hurt your odds of surviving.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Tueller concluded that the average person could cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. If you are within 21 feet of the shooter and they aren't looking directly at you, the odds are still in your favor for rushing the shooter. Add a mag change to the equation and the odds in your favor increase. Or you can discard Tueller, assume the position and wait your turn.

My hope in posting this thread was to encourage people to place themselves in the victims shoes mentally and think through the possible options. If you polled the record breaking athletes I'll bet they would all tell you that before they completed that record breaking lift, finished the mile faster than anyone else ever had or jumped higher or further than anyone ever had, they visualized that moment thousands of times. Visualizing how you would react during a close encounter with a shooter and adding in the part where you apply legitimate tactics and survive can't hurt your odds of surviving.

Yes, the main thing I had thought of so far was that a mag change would be the best opportunity to do something.

 

[JSH1]

As the dust settles over the Orlando nightclub shooting it appears none of the club goers fought the attacker. If there are reports to the contrary I haven't seen them.

I don't know if any one the club goers engaged the shooter but considering it was 2 am and last call I suspect many of them were too drunk to put up much of a fight.

I have read that Mateen was engaged by a uniformed officer in the parking lot on the way into the club and shortly after by that officer and 2 more inside the club. It is my understanding that at that point Mateen entered a bathroom and took hostages.

 

[toivo]

I don't know if any one the club goers engaged the shooter but considering it was 2 am and last call I suspect many of them were too drunk to put up much of a fight.

More than one eyewitness account said that at first they thought the gunfire was part of the music. We're talking about a dark environment with very loud music and flashing lights. It's disorienting to begin with. I think a lot of them didn't even know what was happening until it was too late.

 

[Deaf Smith]

"Run, hide, fight"... Sure buddy.

I prefer to get behind cover, shoot, reload, move.

Deaf

 

[DIY-Pete]

Run, Hide, Fight? For some that is a tough question for some it is not, they know what they would do.

Experience informs our actions and I have some very personal experience with this topic.

In October of 1996 I was a 26 year old man with a 2 month son, my wife and I had been married for a little over 3 years.

The morning started out with a lot more excitement than normal at work. One of the supervisors had to discipline an employee and it didn't go well. It ended in the firing of the employee. About 20 minutes later he came back with a gun (10mm) and killed his boss and my friend.

I was about 20' away from the killer when he pulled the gun out of his coat. He was looking right at me and I have never been so scared in all my life. I thought I was dead where I stood. He then turned and trotted off towards his eventual victim and started shooting. I ran and I ran hard, the only thought in my mind was to make it home to my family.

Later that same day (the cops didn't let any of us leave the scene, witnesses) I saw the face of my friends wife shortly after she had been told of her husbands death. In that instant I knew I had made the wrong decision. It will NEVER happen again. Not a day goes by that I don't think of those events. I no longer feel the guilt of my actions but I still regret them.

If there ever is a next time I will fight.

Pete

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1996/W...ter-Fight/id-684e88b82ce17c9bdd39b0ac3bf35e8a

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/106994728/

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/148568545/

 

[MachIVshooter]

The attack was on a group/culture least likely to fight back.

You mean 99% of civilians?

While I appreciate what you're getting at, it is disingenuous to suggest that there's no difference in the will to fight back between the patrons at a gay club versus your typical Anytown USA bar. For better or worse, there's simply less machismo/bravado in that culture, less fightin' instinct than among heterosexual men (although perhaps we must exclude the latest generations for this comparison). As well, the majority of gay couples do not have children, and don't typically view their partner as especially weaker or less capable in the physical sense, so the protective instinct is somewhat less, same as it would be in a single straight man with no children.

The argument that homosexuality is physiological (not a choice) is well established; in that capacity, one must acknowledge that those physiological differences manifest in other ways, too. The percentage of male members in that community who are effeminate is MUCH higher than in the rest of the population and, like the majority of females, they are simply less inclined to fight.

This is not being bigoted, just honest about the facts. I have no problem with gay folks, but I also have no problem acknowledging the things that separate them from the rest of us, and as P5 was saying, some of those things make that community an easier/softer target.

 

[Al Thompson]

Note that in the Fort Hood attack, several soldiers fought back, but were not successful. I obviously do not know the details (where the attacker positioned himself, obstacles, cover, etc., etc.,) but it's still a daunting task. Going to be a while before the crime scene finishes processing in Miami and we can really look for lessons for the rest of us.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Note that in the Fort Hood attack, several soldiers fought back, but were not successful. I obviously do not know the details (where the attacker positioned himself, obstacles, cover, etc., etc.,) but it's still a daunting task. Going to be a while before the crime scene finishes processing in Miami and we can really look for lessons for the rest of us.

Well you will find it lots easier with a gun than without one.

Deaf

 

[Shane in MT]

Fight, fight, and fight......in that order.

Not having a firearm, makes fighting contrary to basic instincts, but it is likely the best option if trapped with a crowd.



Best course of action is to bum-rush the attacker with as many others as are willing, and overwhelm the attacker.

 

[Shane in MT]

These cowardly bastages look for targets where victims will be least likely to be armed or try to mount a counterattack.

 

[toivo]

Not having a firearm, makes fighting contrary to basic instincts, but it is likely the best option if trapped with a crowd.

Best course of action is to bum-rush the attacker with as many others as are willing, and overwhelm the attacker.

They showed us a training video at work (a "gun-free zone") where the pretend victims are trapped in a room when the pretend gunman comes busting through the door firing. One person goes to cold-cock him with a fire extinguisher, another with a desk chair. They freeze-framed right there.

 

[sequins]

If death is what's coming I'd rather die fighting than running. In the case of reality happening in real time, where I don't know if death is coming or not, I'd rather fight as well because in all the stories I can find a link to its piles of dead people when no one fights and 3-4 when someone does fight.

In Seattle Pacific University the guy fought back with pepper spray and fists, only 3 dead. In Las Vegas at the Walmart the guy shot back and died and it ended with 3 dead. The mall in Portland the guy didn't even shoot he just flashed his CCW and the shooter offer himself (I think also 3 dead...) Whether you fight effectively or in effectively it still seems effective

In Pulse no one fought and 50 dead. In Newtown no one fought and many died.

To argue against fighting seems pretty flat out dumb just on the numbers... Even the FBI is switching to recommend fighting over fleeing.

 

[Plan2Live]

I hate to break it to you Deaf but in most people's everyday world there are lots of places we can't or shouldn't carry.

Pete, I'm sorry you had to go through that and am glad you survived. What does the caliber mention add to the account?

Al, I know about some of the training and experience you've had and I genuinely respect your abilities and opinion. I acknowledge that no one at Fort Hood was successful in their attempts to take down the shooter. However, with your training, especially with your training, you have to agree that visualizing a positive outcome when mentally placing yourself in such a scenario has to be more productive than assuming a negative outcome, otherwise why even carry in the first place?

In general, in addition to all the dry firing, live firing, practice and training we do with our firearms, let's also take a few moments and review our disarming techniques, hand-to-hand skills and knife work. Hammer, nail and all that.

 

[Coop45]

Until you have been in somebody's field of fire, anything you think is just conjecture.

 

[DIY-Pete]

Pete, I'm sorry you had to go through that and am glad you survived. What does the caliber mention add to the account?

I'm not sure. All the memories are strong and emotional, like it happened yesterday, and that is just a part of it.

Pete

 

[Deaf Smith]

I hate to break it to you Deaf but in most people's everyday world there are lots of places we can't or shouldn't carry.

I ain't most people... and where I'm at I can. And a lot of places you CAN carry (but get fired from your job if found out).

You take your pick and pay your price.

Deaf