Run, Hide, FIGHT

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If I knew I were going to be surrounded by drunk and irresponsible people, I would definitely carry a firearm. Wouldn't you?
Probably not.

First, I no longer have a desire to surround myself with people in the process of achieving or having achieved a state of drunkenness. Drunk people routinely make bad decisions. I don't want to be forced to defend myself because some drunk makes a really bad decision that involves me. It's called avoidance.

Second, try defending that one in court. Prosecutor - "Mr. Humphrey, you knew you were going into a location where the majority of the people in the vicinity would most likely be at some level of intoxication and you thought brining a firearm into that environment was a good idea?"

Third, what are the local laws regarding bringing a firearm into an establishment that serves alcohol for onsite consumption?

If I make the choice to go into a location where firearms are prohibited by law I am not going to risk losing my ability to legally own and/or carry a firearm for the rest of my life by carrying a firearm into that location. You might choose to take that gamble but I won't. Five cars could be in a pack speeding on the Interstate. I'm the guy in the middle, two in front, two behind and I'm the guy the Trooper will pull in behind and light up. That's my luck, that's why I obey the speed laws and all other laws.
 
I know someone who owns an armed security company that contracts with a nightclub. They are challenged, threatened, spat on and taunted every hour of every night they are on duty because they are dealing with drunk people.

Security guards maybe/are.

But that not the rule if thumb for patrons.

States like AZ you can be armed in a drunken bar all you want. Dont really hear about patron's having lots of problems especially if they CC.

Why would you voluntarily insert yourself into such an environment if you aren't being paid to do so?

It seems that you're saying you shouldn't go armed anywhere that there's alcohol served.

Might as well ban carrying outside the home in that case.
 
It was 2am in a nightclub. Are we really suggesting that going into a nightclub at 2am is a good idea? Are we going to double down on that and suggest that carrying a firearm into a nightclub at 2am is a good idea? Unless you are paid onsite armed security why would you want to be around a bunch of drunk (and potentially high) people while armed? I know someone who owns an armed security company that contracts with a nightclub. They are challenged, threatened, spat on and taunted every hour of every night they are on duty because they are dealing with drunk people. Why would you voluntarily insert yourself into such an environment if you aren't being paid to do so? And knowing you will be surrounded by drunk and irresponsible people why would you carry a firearm?
Personally I would not go into a nightclub in the first place, regardless of what time it was. However, sometimes I am somewhere where there are a lot of people, so I still think it's valuable to think about possible responses in the event of an active shooter.
 
First - as many have said, pick your establishment more carefully. Gun free zones with a high percentage of unarmed patrons are an attractive victim zone. If out clubbing and you are socially press ganged to go into a bar (assuming legal carry is even allowed) then what do you do?

First, where are the exits? Live bands have caused major fires with pyrotechnics, you do want to get out. Are the doors locked? Not Good. Maybe a discreet phone call to who would get an inspector out to write them up - like, after 11:00 on a party night when they are off duty?

Things are breaking down rapidly right there. Nope, you could be The Man and get in the owners face about the chained fire escape doors, but he'd likely invite you to leave with his bouncer's assistance.

Next you are sandwiched into a booth - and what kind of carry did you practice? Pocket? Belt? No better than in a car or at a desk, it's a highly constricted draw with no room to maneuver. Not Good. You need to sit on the periphery of the booth. A table might be better. In college we used to practice this in small groups maneuvering to get the best seat to view pretty girls coming into a restaurant, but the social dynamics will get you in the wrong seat about half the time. In a bar the gunman may not be coming in the front door, YMMV.

Now add blaring music with a definite thumping staccato, flashing lights, and it all covers up what we would normally use to identify gunfire - loud noises and muzzle flashes. About all you get initially is a visual clue IF you aren't hit by the first burst of rounds flying past you. In this situation anything is a backstop to the shooter - he's working on the reverse of the four rules of safety, much the same as combat. A hit is a hit and it makes little difference if it's accidental.

However, you are at least trained in the four rules, hitting innocent civilians isn't in your game plan, and in the aftermath their legal response is significant, much less their moral outrage, the spin the media will put on it, and even worse, being nominated volunteer terrorist of the month in aiding the shooter kill more people. See the thread on why five shots aren't enough - or why they might still be too much.

So, sitting trapped in the back of a booth with patrons scrambling, your group members frozen in place, and you not understanding where the threat is located, much less being able to retrieve your weapon? You are going to have to push kick and shove people out of the way - and they are trying to push kick and shove others out of the way at the same time. It's total chaos with the music likely still thumping as the DJ bailed early, people now screaming, and guess what, the police response is still minutes away. Plenty of time to order pizza and get delivery, right?

During the chaos you have a window of opportunity to move out of the area and it seems the best thing to do is retreat - to that exit you previously staked out that will open. If on the way you are blocked by the shooter then immediate action could be your best course.

Remaining in the building with your handgun drawn and firing back will complicate things. First, you are now a shooter and witnesses will likely think you are part of his team. Hitting an innocent bystander who moved thru the line of fire will prove it to them and they might react by oops worst case shooting back at YOU. Now we have a gun battle with only good guys participating. Isn't chaos fun? It works to the initial shooters advantage as he now sees who has guns to target.

Once the initial strike team on the exterior moves to breach and contain you are then another armed shooter, too. And good luck with that. The predominant tendency for a cop is to shoot first - they can and do get a big pass on collateral damage, just review any NYC street shooting with officers typically engaging in volley fire while passersby work around the scene.

"Unfortunately Mr. Good Guy died when the response team mistakenly took him as a shooter because he was waving a gun around discharging it among the fleeing patrons." Add in from another thread that a high capacity firearm will be recognized as a bigger threat - "because shooters choose them to kill more people." No, it's not statistically supported among mass shootings but it's definitely part of the anti gun agit prop and what a lot of people think - hi cap = more dead people.

Think about what gun a cop will recognize as a CCW for self protection vs a shooter's choice of weapon, add in your choice of dress and type of haircut, etc. Reality says yes they very well profile on sight even tho training says it can be deceptive.

The takeaway is don't go into victim zones during high risk times. I scan Walgreen parking lots here before pulling in late nights when family needs an immediate prescription, I watch patrons in Walmarts after 10:30 when the kids needed a gallon of milk for breakfast the next morning. There is more criminal activity after dark in most cities and being out in that social mix exposes you to more risk at those times.

Most of us won't be out or go there because of it. Which means most of us won't train, won't be ready, and will freeze in place because of it. We really don't know if any of the survivors were carrying, legally or otherwise, and unless the police frisk every one we may never find out in the future. They got out the door and quickly moved away early in the event.

Maybe they did the right thing. It worked for them.
 
One thing is for certain, this isn't the last time this will happen. Next time it might be more gunman or a real explosive or they may block exits and use fire.
At my age I shun loud crowded places like this but I do have fond memories of partying in my misdirected youth.
A good deal of our countrys economy is derived from people gathering en-mass at what are known to be soft targets, I don't suspect we will see folks quit the county fair, high school sporting events, worship services, or farm auctions all of which render people about as vulnerable as the Pulse attack so unless we intend to place costly security at every venue that draws more than a handful or submit to gov oversite that is unheard of in any but the most tyrannical of countries I suspect we put on the big boy pants and deal with these fanatics as they come or else they win. Were not in Kansas anymore Toto.
 
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If I knew I were going to be surrounded by drunk and irresponsible people, I would definitely carry a firearm. Wouldn't you?
Probably not.

First, I no longer have a desire to surround myself with people in the process of achieving or having achieved a state of drunkenness. Drunk people routinely make bad decisions. I don't want to be forced to defend myself because some drunk makes a really bad decision that involves me. It's called avoidance.

Note the bold, underlined word in italics above. If.

A person does not give up the right to life just because he chooses to go somewhere you wouldn't go.
 
Second, try defending that one in court. Prosecutor - "Mr. Humphrey, you knew you were going into a location where the majority of the people in the vicinity would most likely be at some level of intoxication and you thought brining a firearm into that environment was a good idea?"

You made that up, didn't you?

Do you recall that a person doesn't have testify against himself? And that it is not a crime to go into a place like that? And that a person doesn't forfeit his right to life if he does go into such a place?
 
Famous line

Not my line,but famous.

NOTHING good happens on the streets after 11 PM.

I see that as true for bars and "clubs" too.

I was a cop for 26 years and the bars rocked and rolled after midnight.

I cannot count the number of bar fights that I went to,but hundreds would be a low count.

I go out,I carry,I do NOT drink in public.

I am very happy to be out of ANY club / restaurant etc long before 11 PM.
 
Do you all really think this ends with night clubs?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 
I go out,I carry,I do NOT drink in public.

I am very happy to be out of ANY club / restaurant etc long before 11 PM.
No reasonable man would disagree.

Burt we are still faced with 49 dead and 53 wounded -- and as a cop, would you not go to their aid? Would you deny them the right to self-defense?
 
Not my line,but famous.

NOTHING good happens on the streets after 11 PM.

I see that as true for bars and "clubs" too.

I was a cop for 26 years and the bars rocked and rolled after midnight.

I cannot count the number of bar fights that I went to,but hundreds would be a low count.

I go out,I carry,I do NOT drink in public.

I am very happy to be out of ANY club / restaurant etc long before 11 PM.
100 percent agree.

I COULD go out to the local 7/11 at 2 AM to. Walk there from my house. It is my RIGHT to do that..... but I won't. I pack and I am quite good with my roscoes but still, yea, I go home at night with my family.

If you are single folks, go to some church group or such (I know it can be lonely, I WAS single 25 years ago) but bars are not the way. Not the way at all.

Deaf
 
Wow, has this thread devolved. Started out as a "run, hide, fight" strategy discussion, and now is apparently more on who holds higher moral ground in deciding when and where they go with regards to availability and consumption of alcohol...
 
How does letting the door swing shut prevent others from using it? I was under the impression the owners had doors chained shut to prevent patrons letting in others without paying an cover charge, or had simply cared less about fire safety.

As for it being a crime to carry in a night club, in many states it is. Check the conceal carry laws in your state - for that matter, I can't carry legally in my own church. In MO consent has to be given before the fact at a lot of locations.

How many of you plan that far ahead and call every bar in town to see where you can carry - legally? Right, didn't think so. Sure some states allow it, many states do not. For the most part it's a moot point - guns in bars are not a good thing. Mature adults DO understand that. We DON'T do it for good reasons.

Go back to the specific scene I described above and tell us how you would handle being in a shootout - in a bar - with loud music - and flashing lights - packed with hundreds of drunks - the doors chained shut regardless of the law. Instead of complaining about how the threads getting derailed, try contributing to enhancing our tactical knowledge.

It's going to take more than a few sentences.
 
Go back to the specific scene I described above and tell us how you would handle being in a shootout - in a bar - with loud music - and flashing lights - packed with hundreds of drunks - the doors chained shut regardless of the law. Instead of complaining about how the threads getting derailed, try contributing to enhancing our tactical knowledge


I'm not sure why you're so hung up on the presumption that there is hundreds of drunks. Whether or not the people running away are drunk is pretty much irrelevant.

There was one guy shooting lots people with a rifle.

Are you saying that because people are drunk and running away in a panic state, you may confuse them from a guy with a rifle shooting at them in a calm deliberate manner? (that's what is being reported)




Tactical step #1 - Identify the threat.

If you see a guy with a rifle randomly shooting people that are running away, that would be a darned good indication of who the bad guy is.
 
Check the conceal carry laws in your state - for that matter, I can't carry legally in my own church.

Surely you are not going to carry into a church establishment that serves communion wine, and in the morning to boot!
 
For the most part it's a moot point - guns in bars are not a good thing. Mature adults DO understand that. We DON'T do it for good reasons.

Exactly what are those good reasons? Do we not trust ourselves? Why should "mature adults" not trust themselves? Has our standard of what a "mature adult" actually is changed?

Instead of complaining about how the threads getting derailed, try contributing to enhancing our tactical knowledge.

How does boasting about being on higher moral ground by not carrying within a bar or nightclub provide additional "tactical knowledge"? Maybe getting the thread back on track will re-open it to such contributions, instead of debating by deflection away from the topic of strategy and tactics. You asked about what we/I would do if I found myself in such a situation, but you also opined that the only acceptable response is not to have been there in the first place.

The takeaway is don't go into victim zones during high risk times.

You make a LOT of good points in post 56, but none of them contains any recommended course of action other than the line above.
 
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Run, Hide, FIGHT!

First, I do not go out, late at night, on my own, or with my Wife of 23 years.

And when we go out, I carry, a Glock 19, 4thGen. plus a G17 mag. Flash light, on the belt.

If I could only carry a knife, I have one that cost me $32.00. It is as as sharp as a razor. It is a lock back byrd made in China 3" blade.

To unlock the blade, you must push in on a part of the blade, on the back of the handle.

There is no way you can grip the handle, to slash and stab, to make the blade close on your hand, it is very light.

If I could not carry a Gun, this would be hard to find. I would be happy with it.

If I could get close enough to touch the gun man, I would be able to kill him.
But you need the ability, and the skill. An unskilled rifle shot takes a minute, or so to reload. With two hands tied up handling a rifle, the jugular, in the neck is so easy to cut, but you must act pathological! Crazy. Slash and stab.

And unfortunately, we do not teach this to our children, or adult's even.
 
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