Run, Hide, FIGHT

[Deaf Smith]

How could the physical shape of the defender or attacker be altered by the Tueller Drill?

Try running with bad legs or overweight or uphill or down hill or just a slow runner or fast runner. That all alters the time to move 7 yards.

Try drawing with arthritis or with a poorly made holster (or a very well made one) or having excellent reflexes or bad ones or excellent training or bad training. That all alters the time to react to the person moving seven yards.

What I said was that in literally thousands of instances, physical shape and other factors does not result in more than +/- 0.1 seconds difference in time to run the drill.

And what I say is that is poppycock. Show us such a study that says that. Just post a link to it.

The Tueller Drill does not involve an already-drawn weapon.

Well life does involve that. And that alters the seven yard rule. And if you use that drill in court but you had your weapon drawn, or hand on the gun ready to draw, that makes it invalid as a defense.

Deaf

 

[danez71]

Try running with bad legs or overweight or uphill or down hill or just a slow runner or fast runner. That all alters the time to move 7 yards.



And what I say is that is poppycock. Show us such a study that says that. Just post a link to it.

Deaf

Perhaps this will clarify some things; Conducted by Force Science Research Center

www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/art...ense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/

Meanwhile, the AVERAGE suspect with an edged weapon raised in the traditional "ice-pick" position can go from a dead stop to level, unobstructed surface offering good traction in 1.5-1.7 seconds.

The "fastest, most skillful, most powerful" subject FSRC tested "easily" covered that distance in 1.27 seconds. Intense rage, high agitation and/or the influence of stimulants may even shorten that time, Lewinski observes.

Even the slowest subject "lumbered" through this distance in just 2.5 seconds.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I said:

How could the physical shape of the defender or attacker be altered by the Tueller Drill?

The response was:

Try running with bad legs or overweight or uphill or down hill or just a slow runner or fast runner. That all alters the time to move 7 yards.

And now I ask, how does the Tueller Drill CAUSE people to have bad legs, be overweight, or run uphill?

 

[Deaf Smith]

And now I ask, how does the Tueller Drill CAUSE people to have bad legs, be overweight, or run uphill?

Vern... the drill does not cause bad legs, but bad legs cause the drill to alter it's outcome as for time to defend. The 7 yard rule is, well, bogus.

As noted in danez71 response, 1.27 seconds was the fastest, 2.5 seconds slowest. That's over one second difference. Now add the defenders reaction time if concealed or exposed carry, their physical abilities (fast, slow, arthritic, inexperienced, etc..) and their reaction to the person moving in 1.27 to 2.5 seconds will affect the outcome of the drill.

Some defenders may be very fast while the attackers very slow or vice versa. Thus, as I said long way up this thread, the Tueller Drill is very much misunderstood and those using it as a court defense must see it has flaws for that kind of use.

Deaf

 

[danez71]

Some defenders may be very fast while the attackers very slow or vice versa. Thus, as I said long way up this thread, the Tueller Drill is very much misunderstood and those using it as a court defense must see it has flaws for that kind of use.

Deaf

The article in the link talks about that very issue; the Trueller Drill being misunderstood.


It also brings up the terrain playing apart; slippery, up hill, dry and good traction etc

 

[MedWheeler]

Is this thread still open to the original topic?

 

[danez71]

^^^^

Considering that "Tueller " was in the OP, the thread is still somewhat on topic.


But to your point,

The OP

As the dust settles over the Orlando nightclub shooting it appears none of the club goers fought the attacker. If there are reports to the contrary I haven't seen them.

The point of this post is a reminder that if we ever find ourselves in a similar situation we can't forget the FIGHT part even if we are in a non-permissive environment or are unarmed for any number of other reasons. It is my belief if you are within 10 feet of a shooter you really have no option other than to rush the shooter, especially a shooter with a long arm. Once you are close in they can't engage you with that rifle. Some will say "he had a pistol". Okay so he has a pistol, on his strong side and he is already holding a rifle and most likely using his strong hand to hold that rifle. Remember Tueller and rush. Use your knowledge of how firearms work and either disarm the shooter or temporarily disable the firearm by ejecting the magazine, engaging the safety, creating a fail to eject with a pistol or grip the cylinder on a revolver preventing it from operating while you kick, punch, stab, slash, gouge eyes or anything else you have to do to survive.

Obviously obtaining training in hand to hand techniques goes without saying but I think everyone also needs to think these scenarios through and develop a plan well in advance. Again, not breaking any new ground here, just posting a reminder.

 

[Old Guy]

I suppose you all know the 7 yards was modified to 10 yards, years ago?

Most Instructors taught a step to one side, as you fired. "Step off the X"

What gave me the shivers? A short film clip, of a Uniformed Police Officers injury's, just after he was admitted into an OR, the result of being stabbed.

His body resembled a side of beef! Saw this at an IALEFI Annual Training Conference. Eye witness said it happened in seconds.

Interesting exercise, a upper torso made of Styrofoam, thrown out, from a male clothing store. Put it on a table, discuss what organs would be hit (guessed) by inserting a knitting needle, at were a bullet had hit.

Just rotating this dummy an inch, big difference in bullet bath.

Most opinions, was the spine, or an organ like the liver, or a kidney hit could cause collapse to the ground. But those targets were not that big!

Consensus? Hi capacity pistols ruled, shoot a lot of rounds.

Try this exercise, on an outdoor range, have an Officer in Uniform, face a target at 10m. Have a normal shaped adult face up range, standing next to the shooter. On the command of a loud shout of "GO" shooter draws and fires one aimed shot, runner starts to run! Note were the runner reaches, when the shot breaks. When the pistol is holstered, check the distance moved, and! Check the hit on the target!! Interesting.