S&W "Deal" Is It Time To Move On ?

[Shooter 2.5]

Yes, it's time to move on and give Smith and Wesson our support. The boycott worked and it's a new company.

The agreement was the same as if a parent gave a ransom to kidnappers of a child. No difference whatsoever.

I also think the people who continue the hatred of S&W and still buy Chinese Communist made firearms a bunch of hypocrites.

The last time I looked, my 22A isn't made from plastic which is one of the reasons I will never buy a Glock.

 

[Gewehr98]

Shooter2.5, take your 22A apart...

Look at the rebound buffer, which holds the guide rod in place. By 200 rounds, you'll see significant wear.

And how about that flexible plastic trigger? Yee-Haa! It's why I sold mine and bought a Browning Buckmark.

Now, about us hypocrites.

Don't buy anything at WalMart. Ever. Your blue blood would just plain curdle were you to find out where stuff comes from in that store. That computer you're using to view THR? Look inside the case sometime.

And for Gawd's sake, don't forget to stay away from any of the following gun purchases:

Mauser rifles - evil Nazi things
Luger pistols - again, evil Nazi things
Walther P-38 - yup, more of the above
Japanese Arisaka rifles - Hey, weren't they part of the Axis Powers?
Italian Carcano rifles - Oops, another evil Axis power...
Russian AK variants - designed by Soviets, for world domination.
Russian SKS variants - Oh, my, another evil gun from a bad country!
Russian Mosin-Nagant - Soviet workhorse.
Russian Makarov - Evil little communist handgun
Russian Tokarev - Another evil little Communist handgun
Czech VZ-52 rifle - Hmm, they were Warsaw Pact, no?
Czech CZ-52 pistol - Warsaw Pact handgun with an armor-piercing bullet, too!
Chinese SKS - Red Chinese communist gun, pure evil.
Chinese AK variant - definitely reeks of evil.


Now, let's put the shoe on the other foot. I'm sure that some Native Americans have no great love for the Trapdoor Springfield. We were so nice to all those American Indians by showing them our Springfields. Too bad is was mostly just the muzzle end.

Some Southerners would have nothing to do with a Spencer carbine, and some Northerners would thumb their noses at a Whitworth.

There are German immigrants who loathe the Springfield after WW1.

The Koreans at No Gun Ri may have suffered the ultimate fate at the hand of the Garand or M1 Carbine.

The Palestinians probably feel that the M-16 was one of the most hateful things the US could have supplied Israel. Same goes for our Vietnamese-American community.

How about Kent State and the M14? Could these people have a legitimate reason to dislike a certain weapon?

Now, which oppressive government would that be? And we're the big kids on the block these days. We Americans are no angels, even as a military member I'm not that brainwashed.

Looking elsewhere in my gun safes...

Oh, yeah, those gol-durned Browning designs! Winchester lever guns, Colt 1911, Remington Model 8, Browning Auto 5, Browning BAR, you name it! My Lutheran upbringing said that Mormonism was an abomination. I must have evil Browning guns by default.


Oops, there's a well-worn Kahr K9 in a Bianchi holster in my car as I type this. I don't have any urge to join the Unification Church. But I do very much like Justin Moon's little 9mm, and will use it to defend my life.

Moral high ground, eh? I'll continue my hypocracy, thank you very much.

 

[Shooter 2.5]

Well, you said it better than I did.

A bunch of people who complain about S&W and ignore all the other agreements of the gun companies. Thanks for the list. I had a similar list on Free Republic.

Wow, the 22A has a plastic trigger like a Colt 1911. Oh my god, I better sell the thing right now. Gee, thanks for the warning. So tell me, when can I expect it to break? A couple thousand more rounds? By the way, I tossed the buffer out a long time ago. It's been fine without it.
None of my centerfires have plastic.

You forgot to add Para-Ordnance,[Socialist country] Ruger, [Hi cap mag agreement] Taurus[Smart gun agreement] and Colt[Smart gun agreement] to the list.

 

[guy sajer]

Mr Mauser ,
No , I am not bleeding . But , thanks for your concern . Yes , life will go on .

It's been a long time , but if memory serves me H&R and High Standard went out of business because they chose to alienate the dealer by selling huge quantities of merchandise to "Big Box" stores at cut prices . Eliminating their best salesman , the dealer . They were being sold for price alone . When the Boxes got into some economic trouble late 70's early 80's and stiffed the small gun companies as well as other companies that supplied them with goods , for money due , they had no where to go . No money , bankrupt . Remington came close to the same end several years ago with K-Mart .

As for the paperweight companies , they were bankrupted by the legal system from our country's liberal left needing someplace to put the blame for their own negligence . Whether it be a careless mother leaving a loaded Raven (I think) in her nightstand so her teenage daughter's friend could access it and then shoot the daughter carelessly . Then the mother sues the dealer in PA and Raven because they didn't teach her to be a responsible gun owner . Yes , it's terrible . But we continue to be a nation where some will not take responsibility for their own lives or mistakes they make .
They also failed because in my opinion they made an inferior product that not only was unreliable but prone to breakage . Whether it's a gun company or widget company , if you make a shoddy product , it will eventually catch up .

S&W makes a good product. Their leadership made a bad decision/mistake . That leadership is gone . We are willing to give anyone a second chance in most cases . (No not an inmate on death row in Il) . If you chose not to , I respect that .

Your continued buying of used firearms is still a help to all of us in the industry . I'll assume you buy ammo , holsters , cleaning stuff . Thank you .

I think the gun industry has finally caught on to the fact that each other is not the competition as much as the anti-crowd . This I believe is shown by the gun industry with the industry organization NSSF www.nssf.org and Heritage Fund www.hsshf.org Please check them out . There's a lot of good info there .

Yes the 22A has a "plasic" grip . But the grip frame underneath is an alloy . Take the grip screws off and remove the grip and you'll see. As far as malfunctions with the 22A , we sell about 60 - 80 a year . I have returned maybe 2 in a year that actually had problems . The few complaints we had were mostly related to poor ammo quality and poor maintainence . I had one customer tell me the rifling was coming out of his barrel . He was using cheap promo ammo like Thunderbolt/Wildcat which pushes at high velocity and uses only a thin wax coating as lube . The rifling was full of lead . It was caked from one end to the other . When we cleaned it for free for him and explained the problem , he was satisfied enough that he bought a new 686 .

Thank you for your opinion .

Mitch

 

[Blackhawk]

The leadership at Smith that made the deal is out .

And so is the leadership in the government that made that deal.

HOWEVER, neither the government nor S&W has repudiated the deal nor have they rescinded it. If and when that happens, it will be time to move on.

 

[Gewehr98]

I was more than ready, and at complete peace...

Were Ruger and Colt to go Tango Uniform from their own corporate decisions.

Nature abhors a vacuum. It's not like somebody else wouldn't make a Single Action Army revolver, 1911, or AR-15. And I seriously doubt that the demise of the Mini-14 is gonna shake up the gun-buying public.

My 22A was a total miscarriage, in both fit, finish, and function. Hence my dropping it like a bad habit. Hopefully, S&W got their fecal matter collected with regards to that gun. I love the S&W Model 41, so it's not like they don't know how to make a decent rimfire autopistol.

Some feel stronger than I do. Two of the bigger gun dealers in my area refuse to carry S&W products, and they were moving quite a bit of product for those folks earlier. Having my own FFL, I understand that this represents a good chunk of potential income for those dealerships. Pretty strong convictions.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Anyone who knows me should know my stance on this issue fairly well, by now.

The fact that S&W is under new management doesn't matter.

If you stopped eating at an old restaurant because the kitchen was filthy and unsanitary, then it changed hands, but the kitchen remained filthy and unsanitary, would you go back just because it changed hands, or would you wait for the new managment to make proactive steps to solve the problems at hand?

Anyone who says that the boycott was about internal safety/locking devices (guns have had internal safety devices for well over 100 years) or smart gun technology (that's been an ongoing technological challenge for nearly 50 years) is missing the point.

Anyone who believes that it's OK to buy S&W just because it's an American-owned company again, instead of British owned, is also missing the point.

The boycott has always been about a company agreeing to what essentially was a government end-run around the Constitutional process for passing laws in the United States. What the Clinton administration couldn't get through legislation it got by making promises that it immediately broke.

The boycott has also always been about a company adopting a mechanism by which its enemies, OUR enemies can pretty much gain operational control of the firm. Does anyone really want ATF or the cities that have been trying to sue gun manufacturers, the ones who have pretty uniformly adopted serious firearms restrictions within their borders, controlling production, marketing, and sales of firearms based on their political agendas?

The boycott has also always been about presenting a unified face to the rest of the gun industry as a way of saying "if you choose to do the same thing, your sales will also go into the toilet because we won't buy your guns either."

Unfortunately, at the moment, other manufacturers no longer have to worry about this, as it seems that the majority of American gunowners have apparently make the mistake of "American Owned = AOK!"

As others have noted, the agreement isn't dead. The language of the agreement makes that very clear -- that once S&W signed it, it had the force of both a contract AND a court order.

Even though the it's not being enforced now, that's not the point. Many contracts and court orders go unenforced for years. Until they're enforced.

That, then, is the danger here. That 2 or 4 or 6 years from now, when a ground-shift happens in the American political scene and the Democrats again seize power, that they'll dust off the agreement and demand to the letter enforcement.

By sticking its head in the sand (Bob Scott's recent interviews make it perfectly clear that that is what the company has done) and refusing to address the issue, S&W's doing nothing more than endangering their own business, and our rights.

 

[AR-10]

Mitch

My comments regarding dealers and their attitude were not directed at you. If you are aware of the full impact of the agreement and wish to sell them because your customers want them, that is fine as long as you do not mislead them. I respect your decision to let your customers choose what firearms they will buy from you.

That is a large part of my disgust with the Smith Agreement. They are willingly putting themselves in the position of telling you what rifles I can buy from you.

My bewilderment concerning local dealers is that the ones I have discussed the agreement with adamently state that the contract is null and void. They are telling all their customers who ask the same thing. It is not true. They are misinformed and prefer to stay that way, or they are lying for temporary profit. One gentleman became quite irate when I would not accept his stock reply (the deal is gone) without a rational explaination of how that could be.

I have yet to see one good reason to stop boycotting Smith. It has nothing to do with hatred of a company or a brand name. It has everything to do with my love of semi-auto rifles and a desire to see the gun industry remain healthy for decades to come.

 

[guy sajer]

Thank you for an intelligent , adult reply . It's refreshing and I understand your viewpoint .

As I stated , until such time as we are pressed to make a decison , we'll leave it up to our customers . They are the reason we are doing so well (7,000 guns a year retail out of 1 store )in a depressed economy. We are located 20 min north of Dayton , OH on a back country road . It's hard to believe that we can be successful when the key standards in business is location and location . We have great customers !

I can totally understand your attitude towards dealers that try and BS you . We were raised that honesty is best . Customers will find out if you're not .

Mitch

 

[44Brent]

I saw an article "somewhere" which suggested S&W has, and continues to turn over customer lists to the BATF. Unfortunately, I sent in my registration cards to S&W when I bought a revolver and pistol.

 

[fallingblock]

Mike remains on the "high ground" here...

As far as I'm concerned, by not repudiating 'the agreement' the new owners are still playing both sides of the street. For what it's worth, my experience with the 22A suggests that one would be wise looking elsewhere for a .22!

 

[guy sajer]

Brent ,
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it . ATF doesn't need lists from the manufacturers . The ffl holders keep the list for them . All new and used guns received and sold .

 

[Mike Irwin]

One thing I forgot to mention...

I generally avoid gun dealers who are selling new S&W firearms.

I patronize those who have dropped the line.

These guys get the lion's share of my business these days. We see eye to eye.

Virginia Arms, Manassas, Virginia

 

[guy sajer]

Fair enough . Whether you are buying from me or VA in Manassas you are helping the industry . Thank you for your support . It all counts .
We'll leave the light on . Just in case .

 

[AR-10]

It serves a purpose for me.

I can sleep at night knowing I have not compromised my morals or helped to fund anti-gunners.

You read the whole agreement and then do what you want. I do what I need to.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Sort of like writing your Congresscritters serves no purpose?

Or when the time rolls around voting serves no purpose?

The only reason the purpose has largely been robbed at this point in time is because of far too many people either being misguided on S&W's current stance and the agreement's status, or for all their lip service, they really just don't care about the Second Amendment.

 

[JohnBT]

What's an S&W

John

 

[buzz_knox]

Well yes, because obviouslyyou have an axe to grind with S&W, and your reports fly in the face of what I have observed as aforesaid, and what has generally been reported about S&W quality on this and other Boards...

Go search TFL and you'll find numerous nightmare stories about S&W quality control, including weapons coming out of the Performance Center (where everything is "handmade") with grossly defective barrels.

As for the agreement, it is not dead; the other parties can always enforce it even if the feds don't (ya'll do remember that it was signed by other muncipalities, cities and states, don't you?); and it was not forced upon S&W. It was signed against advice of counsel in order to get preferential treatment in procurement contracts, one of the most ignored aspects of the agreement. S&W wanted the preferential treatment, so it sold us out. End of story.

 

[pax]

The boycott worked and it's a new company.

The boycott was not started in order to make S&W "a new company," nor to make it "an American company," nor "to drive the company out of business."

The reason the boycott was put in place was to kill the agreement. What happens to the company is of no consequence in the long run. It is what happens to the agreement that will matter.

The agreement is not dead. It is dormant.

If we stop the boycott now, the agreement will wake up as soon as conditions are most favorable to anti-rights people and least favorable to RKBA people. And then it will bite us and maybe devour us -- and it will be our own fault, because we didn't kill it dead when we had the chance.

It is too bad that people who didn't make the important decisions at the company have lost their jobs over this. But they will have lost their jobs for no reason whatsoever, if the agreement does not die.

We owe it to them, and to ourselves, to continue the boycott until the agreement is dead.

pax

Consider the postage stamp: its usefulness consists in the ability to stick to one thing until it gets there. -- Josh Billings