safe to carry a cz-82 cocked and locked?

[loneviking]

I have a reason to carry my CZ-82 cocked and locked. I have very small hands. I can not hold the pistol properly and reach the trigger in double action. The C&L feature is why I bought the pistol in the first place.

Unless your financial situation precludes it, you can buy a Glock for not much more than the CZ's and have grip reductions done that will bring a trigger into reach for you while being safer than a CZ. These folks here are good at it:

http://www.southwestshootingauthority.com/612600.html

You could also buy a Springfield XD and have similar work done and the XD's have a grip safety and/or a slide safety. Saying that the safety is at least as positive as a 1911 isn't saying much. Go read some of the 1911 safety threads where guys admit having safeties come off while carrying a 'cocked and locked' 1911 in a holster.

 

[loneviking]

While I don't believe the CZ-82 is designed for condition-1 carry I believe it is safe WITH A PROPER HOLSTER. Which, you didn't have. Your AD was far more a holster failure than a mechanical failure. (which I'm sure was small comfort while you were bleeding all over the place and walking home)
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Thanks for the empathy and to a large extent you are correct. A holster or some other device that blocks any manipulation of the trigger is absolutely essential to carrying any handgun IWB. However, what I've found both with mine and a couple of others I've seen is that the trigger pull is so light that these can go off just by a hard bump IF the safety has also disengaged. A handgun that is carried 'cocked and locked', IMHO, had better have a grip safety.

 

[Ed Ames]

Take this for what it's worth....

The '82 should be carried hammer down. The ambidextrous safety is too easily moved and if the trigger has pressure on it the safety becomes a second trigger. The '82 has a great DA trigger pull...use it.

Decocking the '82 should be done by holding the hammer securely, pulling the trigger, letting the hammer move slightly, RELEASING THE TRIGGER, then lowering the hammer down. It is important to release the trigger AS SOON AS POSSIBLE in the process. Why? If the trigger is forward you can drop the hammer completely and it won't hit the firing pin...verify that with your gun and if it isn't true get it to a smith.

To be exact, I hold the pistol pointed in a safe direction with my right hand, place my left hand on the slide so that the heel of my hand is resting above and forward of the ejection port, place the tip of my index finger on the right side of the hammer and my left thumb on the left side of the hammer, and pinch the hammer between thumb and index finger. The curves of the finger tips fit into the curves where the hammer spur widens. I do not push the hammer back, just pinch it from the sides to hold it securely. I then squeeze and RELEASE the trigger. The hammer will move back slightly as the trigger actuates and then push into the cradle of my pinched thumb and forefingers when the seer releases. I then take my finger OFF the trigger.

At that point, because I have released the trigger, it is safe to lower the hammer. It's also easy to do it in a controlled way because the knurling on the hammer, the swells to the sides of the spur, and everything else add up to a lot of control that shouldn't be absolutely needed because there is a safety block keeping the hammer from hitting the firing pin anyway. Just curve finger and thumb in towards the hand and roll the hammer down.

The alternative is to place your right thumb over the top of the hammer filling the gap between hammer face and firing pin so that the knuckle is on top of the hammer just ahead of the spur knurling, pull and release the trigger (the hammer should move forward slightly into the flesh of your thumb), then roll the thumb out to ease the hammer down. Doesn't seem as secure to me but it can be done one handed and as long as the trigger is released before the hammer is allowed to move the process is safe. The main problem I have with this is that my hold on the gun isn't as secure and it is easier to accidentally pull the hammer back slightly.

I have practiced with unused snap caps and as long as the trigger has been released before starting to ease the hammer down it is as safe as manipulating the trigger on a loaded gun can ever be.

There is no reason to remove the magazine or anything else.

I thought of another way of describing the first method -- I (and a lot of people) rack pistol slides by holding the pistol in the strong hand, placing the weak side hand above the slide so that thumb and index/middle fingers can pinch the knurling on the slide, aand moving strong hand forward and weak hand back to cycle the action. That gives a very secure grip on the slide and takes advantage of strong upper body muscles. Well, for decocking I just move the "pinch" back from the slide knurling to the hammer, pinch securely, squeeze and release the trigger, then ease the hammer down. Practice with an unloaded gun a few times and it will become second nature.

Lowering the hammer all the way with the trigger pulled is VERY bad practice with any gun I've ever looked at.

 

[Rockwell1]

A handgun that is carried 'cocked and locked', IMHO, had better have a grip safety.

I certainly won't argue that point.

Also, I want to be perfectly clear in that t do not wish to make light of your mis-fortune. If anything I said implied that please accept my profound apologies.

 

[loneviking]

Also, I want to be perfectly clear in that t do not wish to make light of your mis-fortune. If anything I said implied that please accept my profound apologies.

No offense taken, I didn't assume you meant any.

 

[loop]

This thread got me curious. My CZ82 is one of my favorite pistols, but it has been so long since I carried it that I couldn't remember in what condition I carried it.

So I dug out my 82 (it had migrated to the back of the safe). It was loaded and holstered. The last time I carried it the safety was off and the chamber was empty.

The slide is incredibly easy to rack. I assume that is why I chose to carry with the chamber empty. Also, I have having the first round DA and the second round SA.

They really are amazing little guns. I think I need another one.

I disagree with the trigger being easy to trip. The pull is agonizingly long. The safety is also very firmly locked when engaged. If I were to carry it tomorrow it would be cocked and locked.

 

[Ed Ames]

One thing to remember is that these are used guns. They have different histories and there's probably a lot of variation gun to gun at this point. On mine the safety is what I'd call secure but by no means extraordinarily firm.

Of course mine has a stiff spring too so it has lost that "easy to rack" quality.

 

[harmon rabb]

loop, the slide on your cz-82 is easy to rack? the slide on mine is the most difficult to rack of any autoloader i own or have fired. if it were easy to rack, i'd consider carrying it without a round in the chamber.

(my cwp has yet to arrive in the mail, but should shortly as it's been almost 3 months since i sent everything in. i'm just trying to figure out what i'm going to do when it arrives)

on another note, maybe i'm crazy, but i rack a slide by holding the gun in my weak hand (my right hand, as i'm left handed... but shoot right handed for some reason) and racking the slide with my strong hand. actually, i guess that's just a byproduct of shooting with my 'weak' hand. (like most lefty's, i'm sort of ambidextrous)

 

[Ed Ames]

Before I respringed my '82 it was very easy to rack. Now i'd go along with "hardest of my guns".

I'm a big fan of the "strong side grips normally, weak side over the slide with thumb towards back, push strong side forward" method of racking. It seems easier to me (it was recommended as a "anybody is strong enough" way) and when unloading it makes catching the chamber round easy.

 

[krs]

Again, I'll ask this question, The CZ 82 has a very smooth action, why would anyone carry one " cocked and locked". And no nonsense about consistence trigger pulls. When your blood is pumping and fight or flight is kicking in, you don't have any conscious memory of pulling the trigger. Or as was suggested, just cocked? { why worry, it's only dangerous when your finger is on the trigger. . Gosh, maybe I should start carrying my double action revolvers on full cock?? What say? The CZ 82 is trigger action with a smooth pull, why not carry it .one in the chamber and hammer down? Very confusing.

Confusing and foolish, Ron. I agree completely but what use? I've begun to believe that this forum is inhabited by underaged idiot children.

What a silly question - to carry a double action pistol cocked and locked.......why? You'll fumble with your safety for much longer than it will take to pull through the double action, if in your panicky state you're able to remember that there IS a safety.

and yes, children, even if you are well trained there's a better than 50-50 chance that you'll do something wrong the first time you come under fire. Little bit better if you just believe that you are ABOUT to be fired upon.

 

[krs]

I just went out and racked the slides of both my CZ-82's and don't find them difficult at all. Both have brand new Wolff recoil springs too, the 5% more than factory version.

I also fired a round out the back door double action. I did not think that the pull is heavy at all. Heavier than any of my 1911's sure, but for a DA pistol fired DA I think it's a very agreeable and light trigger. Smooth too.

REally nice guns aren't they? Maybe I'll send off for a third one today so I can mess with one - mill the slide smooth, maybe add some ballcut channels like a racegun, put on this spare Heinie sight that's been sitting around, hmmm, good idea.

See ya!

 

[Girodin]

and yes, children, even if you are well trained there's a better than 50-50 chance that you'll do something wrong the first time you come under fire.

What is the source of that statistic old and wise sage. Who does that statistic apply to? I imagine that there are individuals on this forum with a very broad range of training and experience yet you have lumped the all together under a blanket statement. As for the assurance that one will fumble with the saftey, how you be so certain. One shouldn't be remembering anything if they are sufficiently versed in the use of their firearm. Things like one's draw and disengaging the safety ought to be ingrained into muscle memory to the point they are reactions and happen virtually naturally. Of course it is a small fraction of gun owners that put in the time and effort required to reach that level. Perhaps you are merely trying to underscore your point about under aged idiot children posters. Mission accomplished.

 

[Ed Ames]

Does wolff make specific '82 springs now?

I use a cut down already heavy Mak spring. I don't know what the force is exactly but it fully tames my full pressure XTP handloads and that was my goal.

Yes, a very sweet shooter. It's a blowback action though so I'm not sure I'd mess much with the slide mass. My only mods are the heavy spring and meprolight night sights.

 

[Dark Skies]

There was this..... !!!

This is why I never carried a pistol in anything other than a shoulder rig. Ugh! I can't even begin to imagine the pain of shooting your meat and two veg.

 

[loneviking]

What a silly question - to carry a double action pistol cocked and locked.......why? You'll fumble with your safety for much longer than it will take to pull through the double action, if in your panicky state you're able to remember that there IS a safety.

Exactly! And yet, the manual for these guns says that this is one of the options to carry these. Go to the C.Z. site and this is what they mean when they say 'selective DA or SA'. The DA pull on one of these isn't bad at all.

 

[Mastiff]

Unless your financial situation precludes it, you can buy a Glock for not much more than the CZ's and have grip reductions done that will bring a trigger into reach for you while being safer than a CZ. These folks here are good at it:

http://www.southwestshootingauthority.com/612600.html

You could also buy a Springfield XD and have similar work done and the XD's have a grip safety and/or a slide safety. Saying that the safety is at least as positive as a 1911 isn't saying much. Go read some of the 1911 safety threads where guys admit having safeties come off while carrying a 'cocked and locked' 1911 in a holster.
__________________

Thanks for the link. I'll give them a call tomorrow.

 

[TMann]

I think that there's a big difference between carrying a cocked and locked handgun in a thin nylon pants holster, and carrying it in a tightly fitted kydex or leather holster. I currently own three different models of IWB holsters, with two more on the way. Each of them holds my handgun securely, and each of them completely covers the trigger guard.

The only gun that I have that can be carried cocked and locked is a CZ 75B. The safeties on my 75B click firmly into the fire and safety positions. I have a hard time seeing how they would be clicked off. Also, the trigger on my 75B has a pull that is reasonably long and heavy. It's not as light as a SA-only trigger, such as is found on my Ruger MK III or a 1911. So even if the safety were clicked off, the chance of the trigger, which is protected by the holster, being pulled are incredibly small. (Disclaimer: I've never actually handled a CZ 82, so I can't speak to the feel of its safety and trigger. It sounds like the 82 in question had much a much lighter safety and trigger pull.)

Every type of trigger is potentially dangerous if carried or handled incorrectly. With all due respect to the gentleman who had the ND, I don't think that ANY gun would be that safe in a holster that thin. I'm glad that the damage from your gunshot wound wasn't more serious.

Lastly, I would like to point out that this is the first time that I have EVER run across a thread in which someone was suggesting that someone trade their current pistol for a Glock, because the Glock's trigger system is SAFER than the one that they're carrying.

Anyways, that's my two cents on the matter. Interesting discussion...

TMann

 

[loneviking]

Lastly, I would like to point out that this is the first time that I have EVER run across a thread in which someone was suggesting that someone trade their current pistol for a Glock, because the Glock's trigger system is SAFER than the one that they're carrying.

So, a Glock safety trigger is LESS safe than a CZ 82 carried cocked and locked? Is that what you are claiming? Didn't you also just claim that a good quality holster solves problems like that?

The real reason I recommended the Glock is because the Glock trigger is, IMHO, safe WITH a quality holster. And more important, because it's a polymer frame, things such as grip reductions can be done which can take the grip down to a size comfortable for the OP. That way, they can easily reach the trigger and they don't have to carry a gun with only one safety.

Further, a used Glock isn't going to run the OP much more than what the CZ costs.

 

[loop]

To me the CZ82 is really easy to rack. But, I have guns that are difficult to rack. A Para Warthog is a pain. It has a 3-inch slide (which is smaller than the palm of my hand) and a 22-pound recoil spring.

The CZ82 is a pipsqueak of a gun. It is really easy to rack.

It is also very nicely machined and made. If it came in .45ACp size it would be all I carried.

 

[Ed Ames]

I don't think the "glock is safer" argument would stand up to much scrutiny.

Glocks have a history of going bang at inopportune times. The problems seem to trace back to either poor holster design (not unique to glock) or unsafe handling by the operator (grabbing for a falling gun, finger catching on trigger during holstering, "I'm the only one in this room", etc.).

I would have no problem carrying an '82 hammer down on a loaded chamber in any circumstance I would carry a Glock.

I would only carry an '82 cocked and locked if I had verified that the holster had safety engaging tabs (some do) and that the safety was firm on that particular weapon. Even then I would prefer to lower the hammer.

 

[krs]

What is the source of that statistic old and wise sage. Who does that statistic apply to? I imagine that there are individuals on this forum with a very broad range of training and experience yet you have lumped the all together under a blanket statement. As for the assurance that one will fumble with the saftey, how you be so certain. One shouldn't be remembering anything if they are sufficiently versed in the use of their firearm. Things like one's draw and disengaging the safety ought to be ingrained into muscle memory to the point they are reactions and happen virtually naturally. Of course it is a small fraction of gun owners that put in the time and effort required to reach that level. Perhaps you are merely trying to underscore your point about under aged idiot children posters. Mission accomplished.

You'll reread my post to find that I said that SOMETHING WRONG does not necessitate fumbling with a safety.

As to all of you "muscle memory" mantra, without statistical support I'll ask if you believe that every young soldier was toilet trained as a child to develop a strong 'muscle memory' to know when it is time to find a toilet?

I'll presume an affirmative response. Yet even so well trained as that, even with so many repetitions as some 18 or 20 years may bring, more than one have discovered to their dismay that all of those years of directed toilet training did not prevent them from losing control of their bowel the very first time they were shot at and knew that THEY were being shot at.

So, I'll gently suggest that no amount of firearm drilling will instill in a person such "muscle memory" as twenty or more years of correctly hitting the loo will, and that with an even lower level of stress than a soldier may face all of that training will be for naught for some folks and they WILL..........get ready..............do SOMETHING wrong.

 

[Mastiff]

I'm sorry, guy. I really think you are wrong on this one.

 

[Ed Ames]

There is a problem with comparing dissimilar kinds.

Voiding waste before/early in a fight is a low-level survival behavior that may qualify as instincual. Not only are animals lighter without the waste, they are more likely to survive grevious injury. So birds, reptiles, insects, fish, and even humans do it. Holding waste in those conditions is counter to instinct.

Actuating a safety is neither instinctual nor counter instinctual. It is something else to remember/pay attention to, and it requires small motor control at a time when that may be difficult, but we have no low-level predisposition to leave the safety on.

The question is moot though ... the '82 blocks the safety from engaging unless the hammer is cocked. With the hammer down you treat it exactly like a revolver.

 

[Guy de Loimbard]

You experience with the CZ-82 may be a lot different than mine since they arrived here in the states in a variety of different conditions, I understand that. But to make a statement that all of them are not safe to carry C&L is kind of obtuse. If mine were one of the above with a floppy 1911 safety and a hair trigger I would rethink what I was doing lest I shoot myself. However, the safety on mine is firm (it is not "at least as positive as a 1911" as I was so misquoted earlier, it's the stiffest safety of any autoloader I've yet tried) and the SA trigger is near 5lb. Smooth, yes, a bit long, maybe, but still fairly heavy for an SA trigger.

 

[toivo]

I must be a wimp: I think my CZ-82 is hard to rack.

For what it's worth, I also think the trigger on my 82 in single action is very light. I wouldn't want to carry it cocked-and-locked, but that's just me.

Also for what it's worth, the thumb-break on the black leather police-type holster that came with my 82 can't be fastened when the hammer is cocked. This would suggest that while CZ-82s can be carried cocked-and-locked, the Czech cops that originally carried them probably didn't do it.

In an NRA handgun safety class, I was taught to lower the hammer on non-decocker guns by gripping the hammer with the right thumb while blocking it with a finger or the thumb of the left hand. Also, as has been mentioned, you should let the the trigger come forward as soon as the hammer has gone down past the "cocked" point. It is then safe to let the hammer all the way down. Still guided gently by the right thumb, of course, and with the pistol pointed in a safe direction.

As far as the Glock alternative, Glocks are great and all, but the pricing is not in the same league. We're not talking brand-new CZ-83s here; we're talking milsurps. Right now, they're selling for anywhere from $169 to $209. I haven't seen any used Glocks in that price range. CZ-82s are a smokin' deal--excellent value for money.