SA's new XD catalog: Making fun of Glock's grip angle

[doublebarrel]

They called Glock's grip "unnatural" and more like "Point and Adjust"...

I read some on the net that, Springfield is using Melonite finish(same as Glock's Tenifer in a different name) on the new XD45ACP and will soon spread it to the entire XD line. I think this is the most significant upgrade or design improvement the XD has received so far. The poor rust-prone Bruniral finish is the only sore spot on an otherwise thoughtful design that makes better sense than the Glock. I don't know why Springfield didn't say a word about this new finish on their web site, neither did they mention it in the new catalog...

 

[gudel]

I don't know why Springfield didn't say a word about this new finish on their web site, neither did they mention it in the new catalog...

Maybe because it isn't? SA knows about the finish issue, I'm pretty sure they would gloat all about it if it's really melonite.

 

[Euclidean]

They're absolutely right about the grip angle thing. I would be a Glocker if not for that grip angle, and those weird finger grooves, and the fact their guns feel like bricks. I love the quality, price, and reliability of the Glock pistol but I hate trying to shoot it. I might try the G19 one day, it seems to be the pinnacle of their offerings for ergonomics.

The ergonomics are exactly what got me into the XD platform. They have a right to brag about them.

RE: the new finish is on the .45 ACP XDs and the rumor in the mill on hs2000talk is that the finish is NOT coming to the rest of the line any time soon. I feel it will happen just not soon.

I personally am on my 4th XD pistol and I've had two with the blued slides and have not experienced the corrosion issue. If I ever did I'd send my slide off and have it hard chromed for a cool custom look and still wind up paying about as much as I would have for a Glock even with that work done. It's an easy fix.

 

[SouthpawShootr]

I must be in a minority of sorts. I find the Glock grip angle to be just fine. I have an XD in 9mm and I'm in no great rush to get another. No specific problems or complaints, I just don't have fun shooting it. My fun gun is my Glock 19.

I have 9 other Glocks, but that XD sits alone in the safe.

 

[Stasher1]

I've never had a problem with Glock's grip angle, it's their crappy triggers that keep me from owning one.

 

[Chris Rhines]

Part of the reason I prefer the Glock over the XD is the grip angle of the Glock. Locking the wrist forward is more consistant, and "preloads" the grip against muzzle flip.

Regardless of what gun you prefer, whichever one you practice with is the one you'll be fastest with. Hand a longtime Glock shooter an XD, and he'll index it pointed low. In that respect, Springfields ad is nothing more than marketing BS.

- Chris

 

[Ala Dan]

I shoot a variety of 1911's, so the XD's grip angle is just right for me~!

 

[doublebarrel]

the new finish is on the .45 ACP XDs and the rumor in the mill on hs2000talk is that the finish is NOT coming to the rest of the line any time soon. I feel it will happen just not soon.

Do you know if the new finish is applied to all metal parts(like those pins on the frame, and the steel sights, trigger, grip safety, etc.), or just the slide? In that regards the plastic sights and trigger on the Glock makes better sense to me, as plastics never rust, and cheap plastics also means cheap replacement(to me, guns are supposed to be shot, not babied. Low maintenance is a must, one reason I like Rugers...)

 

[Curare]

More BS from the "Oldest Name in American Firearms." HA!

 

[Thylacine]

Haven't had a problem with my XD357's finish, and it does feel better than just about any other modern handgun I have used.

 

[Rockstar]

Glock makes Glocks. Who makes Springfields? Could be anybody,depending on what they're importing at the moment.

I'm going to give the XD a try. When the HS2000 first came out at what was probably a realistic price, I went by a gun shop and handled one. I guess it's good that we're all not alike. I didn't like the grip as much as I like the Glock grip.

Time will tell if the XD turns out to be a real breakthrough in pistol design.

 

[osteodoc08]

Finish

By stating that thier "new" finish is better is the same as saying thier "old" finish is inferior. That is probably why they left that part out. I guess they could have just stated they had a new finish or something like that, but then again......it is all about the marketing spin.

 

[HighVelocity]

I've owned several XD's and Glocks. I still own Glocks but no XD's. Not that there's anything wrong with the XD. It's a well made gun but for me, Glock is better in the plastic pistol category.

 

[albanian]

The Glock's grip angle is actually more natural. It is just that most of us are so used to compensating for the crappy grip angle on most guns (like the 1911) that we have gotton used to it. The Luger is close to be the most natural grip angle you can get. If the 1911 had a nice grip angle like the Luger, we wouldn't even think of putting up with most guns that natually point towards the ground.

I am so used to gripping guns like the 1911 that I almost think of it as natural but I know better. Don't mistake natural for what feels normal. That is like saying that it is natural to sit on the left side of a car when you drive. The most natural position would be in the middle of the car but we are never given that option so we tend to think the way we have been doing it is natural.

Glocks only have a weird grip angle because we are used to the poor grip angle of most autos. In time, all autos will have a more natural grip angle like the Glock. It will take many years for the old timers to die off so that real progress can be made.

 

[graywolfkayak]

I wonder how many people think Glock has a poor grip angle, but like the grip angle on a Ruger Mark II or a Browning Buckmark?

 

[Marshall]

Seeing how long Glock has been around and all the publicity they get, I find the following poll/thread very interesting, especially from shooters.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=183129

Two to three years ago, this result would never have happened. Speaks very highly for the XD. How much this speaks of grip angle, I have no idea.

 

[JohnKSa]

I must be in a minority of sorts. I find the Glock grip angle to be just fine.

Not really, it's just that the people who tend to be most vocal about grip angle issues also tend to have already accustomed themselves to other grip angles.

From a purely ergonomic standpoint, the Glock grip angle is more likely to feel "right" to a person who hasn't already trained their arm to another grip angle. Of course, that's only on average. Some folks will be better served with grip angles that are more or less raked.

I do find it amusing that this ad touting the XD grip angle clearly shows the model's finger obviously doesn't align properly with the bore as the text suggests it should. The person who posed for the pic would be better fitted by a grip angle that had a bit more rake--like the one employed by Glock.

If this guy thinks his gun is going to shoot where he points, he's in for some disappointment.

Here's the URL for the picture.
http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-xdpstl-45acp-point.shtml

 

[gudel]

Glock grip is just fine. I find 1911 is too thin, makes my finger overlap. I find that annoying actually.

Has anyone notice that Glock really doesn't compare itself to others while other people always compare themselves to Glock? I suppose if you're on top of food chain, you don't need to compare yourself to the people below you.
This makes me want to buy my 5th Glock.

 

[doublebarrel]

I wonder how many people think Glock has a poor grip angle, but like the grip angle on a Ruger Mark II or a Browning Buckmark?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Buckmarks have the same grip angle as the Ruger 22/45 series, which is the same as 1911s. It's the Mark series that has the same angle as the Lugers, aka., force-me-to-point-the-muzzle-to-the-ground angle...

 

[jc2]

"Point and adjust" is certainly a fair (and maybe even generous description) of the Glock 21 (and 20) grip for sure, but I didn't see Glock mentioned once in that ad. I think some Glockaphiles might be getting more than just a little paranoid (or is the Glock grip really so bad you just assume they had to be talking about Glock--or are you secretly worried by XD).

BTW, I have a couple of Glocks but no Springfields.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Part of the reason I prefer the Glock over the XD is the grip angle of the Glock. Locking the wrist forward is more consistant, and "preloads" the grip against muzzle flip.

Regardless of what gun you prefer, whichever one you practice with is the one you'll be fastest with. Hand a longtime Glock shooter an XD, and he'll index it pointed low. In that respect, Springfields ad is nothing more than marketing BS.

- Chris

I agree 100%.

jc, I have a Glock 20 and I find nothing "point and adjust" about it. It is as natural as they come for me. But most of my experience before I bought the Glock was revolvers and a Ruger Mk I. I had rounds through several other autos, including a Beretta and its Taurus clone, a Ruger P90, a 1911, an HK USP, and a Desert Eagle, but hadn't used them enough to become accustomed to their grips. I don't claim to be a professional handgunner. Sometimes I think it would be stretching it to call my skills with a handgun even average. But I have never hit as often or as fast with a handgun as I have with my Glock, never seen the amount of improvement with every trip to the range, and never obtained the confidence in my equipment with any other handgun than I have with the Glock.

The definition of "point and adjust" is the 1911, for me. The grip feels narrow and digs into the web of my hand. It doesn't seem to sit as low as the Glock. I shoot left handed and have problems with the 1911, even if it has an ambi safety. The thumb of my support hand pushes the exposed part of the take down pin and over the course of a couple mags, I have had it work loose and start to malfunction the pistol. No BS. So when I pick up a 1911, I have to get used to the taller and thinner profile, different pointing characteristics, adjust my thumbs to not hit the take down latch, even if it means keeping them at an unnatural angle instead of directed downrange--then there is always the fact it weighs much more than a Glock but the slide is locked back when I would be about halfway through a mag in my Glock. The whole time I shoot a 1911 I am wondering why people pay twice as much for a pistol that weighs twice as much as a Glock with half the magazine capacity. Two mags through a 1911 just makes me appreciate my Glock that much more. I think I'd have to be legally retarded to give up my Glock for any pistol claiming a supposed increase in ergonomics by basing their grip geometry on the 1911. No thanks. I'll pass. To each his own, I guess.

 

[graywolfkayak]

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Buckmarks have the same grip angle as the Ruger 22/45 series, which is the same as 1911s."

I put a Glock 17 on top of my Buckmark Standard - the grip angle is the same.

 

[1911user]

I've never owned a glock primarily for the grip angle pointing high when held with one hand. My first pistol was a ruger Mk2. I put many, many 22LR rounds through it in a few years, but it never felt natural. I sold/traded it and went through a series of K/L frame S&W and double-action Ruger revolvers and they all pointed very well. That was a purchase requirement for a nightstand pistol. A 1911 with a flat MSH also points well for me. When I bought another 22 pistol, it was a buckmark partially due to the grip angle.

I had a chance to shoot a glock model 32 today and it was enlightening. It used a 3.5 pound connector bar resulting in a nice trigger pull. What was surprising was that it pointed very well and shot well the first time I fired it; about a 2.5 inch group at 10 yards perfectly centered. I did get some slide bite (fat hand web with a high grip) but kept shooting because it was so easy to hit exactly what I was aiming at. I'm not a fan of 357 sig caliber (don't see the point, not a big 357 magnum fan either) so I won't be buying that particular pistol.

I was told the glock 32 and 19 have the same frame shape. If the full size glock had that same pointability, I'd buy one. I'm thinking about G19 now, but it won't do for USPSA use and I also need to check the slidebite issue. I shot a G17 and G22 10-15 years ago and the backstrap grip angle killed sales with me. I was fine with a 2 hand hold, but pointing with 1 hand didn't work and that was a deal-breaker.

I'm not convinced the luger had the ideal grip angle. Going by the above theories, that ruger mk2 should have "trained" my wrist to the steeper grip angles; it didn't.

I have a few complaints about the XD series, but grip angle isn't one of them.

 

[Darth Ruger]

No gun has the perfect grip angle for everyone, but every gun has the perfect grip angle for someone. That's because the bone and muscle structure of every hand is as unique as every fingerprint. To say that one gun has the ideal grip angle is like saying everyone will like the same flavor of ice cream.

They called Glock's grip "unnatural" and more like "Point and Adjust"

I'm curious... How did you interpret this as an attack on Glock's ergonomics? I didn't see the word "Glock" (or even an inference) anywhere in that ad.

 

[litework]

The Glock's grip angle is actually more natural. It is just that most of us are so used to compensating for the crappy grip angle on most guns (like the 1911) that we have gotton used to it. The Luger is close to be the most natural grip angle you can get.

This statement is false, and the principle of correct grip angles is not restricted to sport shooting. When you ball up your hand and point at something, your mind and your index finger naturally line up the target. It’s as natural as putting one foot in front of the other while walking. Your index finger is an extension of the top of your hand where your guns, bows, and power tools rest. With most guns and bows, your index finger will run parallel with the sights on your firearm, and arrow shaft on bows (perpendicular to the riser). However, with Glocks and Lugers, you must relax your wrists and allow the barrel to lower to get on target. Most people I’ve observed shooting Glocks actually alter their grip so that the back of the hand isn’t fully resting on the swollen backstrap.

A Glock was my first handgun. I immediately noticed that I had to relax my wrists to get on target. I thought this was the norm until I purchased my second, non-Glock, pistol. I regularly carry and shoot a Glock 20. I think Springfield’s advertisement is a direct knock on Glock and is spot on for me.