Securing the scene

[shockwave]

A discussion elsewhere raised the matter of not turning your back on a BG even if he's down...

it would be a sorry thing to walk away and get shot by a perp because he was not done yet, or acted like he was unconscious or dead, and pulled out another gun and shot you or yours.

This is an S&T question. OK, so the perp came through your kitchen door, holding a weapon, you said "drop it!" and he starts to point it and you shoot and he goes face down and not moving. What's the correct protocol?

I'd hold my gun in both hands and aim at the head while approaching from the non-gun side of the perp's body if possible. I'd reach down and grab a pant leg or something and pull the body a few feet away from the gun, ready to fire if he makes a grab or tries to lift it.

If I must approach from the gun side, then I'm looking to kick the gun away. Someone else will be dialing 911 while I do this, and if alone I'm doing this before dialing 911. If possible, I'd try to do a pat-down if it looks safe to do so: check waistband, coat pockets, ankles, otherwise maintain a close sight picture and then dial, continue to cover until police are in control of the situation. I would never turn my back on the perp at any time unless he was obviously dead, and I'd confirm that by taking a pulse.

Is there a different protocol recommended?

 

[mcdonl]

Call 911 first, or immediately after. I would not touch him. I would leave by backing away if I were alone, and if not alone and no good people were injured I would see to it they left, then I would back away and leave.

LEO and Medical can determine if he is alive and needs help. You just need to get your arse and your family out of there.

 

[CoRoMo]

I'd hold my gun in both hands and aim at the head while [strike]approaching from the non-gun side of the perp's body if possible. I'd reach down and grab a pant leg or something and pull the body a few feet away from the gun, ready to fire if he makes a grab or tries to lift it[/strike] waiting for police to arrive.

I would do this. I would not approach him. He may be of such skill that he could disarm me if I get within arm's reach of him. Maybe it's silly to think he's a ninja waiting to catch me slipping, but I can't assume I incapacitated him. I have to assume he's lying there, waiting for me to approach. I just don't think I would want to risk it. There might be a second guy outside that window, so I don't want to put too much attention on this guy by moving toward him trying to secure his weapon.

Maybe if there were obvious evidence that he's dead, I would do something different.

 

[Six]

Move to a defensible position (You don't know if there are other bad guys) and continue to protect my family.
Call 911 if possible.
If he makes a move that endangers me, stop the threat.
Repeat as necessary.

 

[Kleanbore]

OK, so the perp came through your kitchen door, holding a weapon, you said "drop it!" and he starts to point it and you shoot and he goes face down and not moving. What's the correct protocol?

This has come up before. In one response, a law enforcement officer stated that officers in such a situation routinely get to a place of safety until reinforcements arrive, if that is reasonably practicable. I cannot find it now.

I don't think you want to move the guy or do anything else that disturbs the crime scene.

You don't want your finger on the trigger, for obvious reasons.

The more your attention is focussed on him, the more vulnerable you are to ambush by an accomplice.

Also, if a neighbor has reported a prowler and first responders arrive to hear shots and see you holding a gun, you are at risk. (If you hear "drop the weapon", do it immediately).

I believe I would back away carefully and with as much 360 degree alertness as possible and get to a safe place and wait.--with the family, or course.

 

[mcdonl]

Yeah, never considered the second bad guy outside. I would retreat to a safe area, if I know it is safe outside then that is where I go.

 

[uspJ]

i would retreat to a safe place inside the home (especially if other family is present) and wait on le to arrive to secure the area. i would not be comfortable trying to secure my entire home or property from potentially multiple threats. i live in a very remote area and response times have been up to 45 min. due to leo/ems/fire not knowing the area and having to have turn for turn directions to get to some of the homes out here.

i would feel much better about having one room to defend with only one door and one window rather than being a target from multiple vantage points in and around my home.

 

[bababooey32]

I agree mostly with all above. I think I'd like to keep eyes on him rather than leave the scene altogether. I'd hate to retreat to a supposedly safe location only to allow him to regroup and mount another attack. I think keeping the BG covered while retreating to cover (and evacuating any bystanders) is how I would handle the situation.

Under NO circumstances would I approach the downed BG, nonetheless touch him or his weapon. Besides the potential for a proximity attack, the investigation will show the movement and then I will have to explain why I moved these pieces of evidence. Nope...Stay away and keep BG covered.

 

[shockwave]

I think I'd like to keep eyes on him rather than leave the scene altogether. I'd hate to retreat to a supposedly safe location only to allow him to regroup and mount another attack.

That's my reason for the question in the first place. Retreat to cover seems like the obvious choice, but you're potentially leaving an armed (and wounded) BG. Ensuring that if he's coming around, he's coming around unarmed seems prudent, but also has some risks. Still, the question was: "what is the protocol" and if LEO retreats to cover, that's the answer.

It's funny how so much of the gun talk we have in the firearms community leads to the point of shooting the opponent, but not much discussion of what happens next.

 

[Kleanbore]

Stay away and keep BG covered.

Sounds good, but to me that would not seem to mitigate the risks of (1) ambush while you are preoccupied, or (2) appearing as a potentially dangerous criminal to arriving first responders. It also creates the risk of an unjustifiable shot--unintentional or otherwise.

Why would you do it? Simply to prevent him from attacking you or your family, right? There's no other justifiable use of deadly force at that point. One real problem is that you just might not prevail in mounting a defense of justifiability if you did shoot at that point. The forensic evidence might not square with what you thought you saw happening in a moment of very high stress.

If you move to another location altogether you are safer; the risk of an unjustifiable shot is greatly reduced; and should the man get up and come after you (highly unlikely, I think), there should not be much question about justifying the use of deadly force at that point.

Safer all the way around, I think.

 

[DC300a]

Keep eyes on him and call 911 immediately. Stay alert but do NOT go near him or touch him... especially the pockets and waistband(needles). Have your family retreat to a safe room of the house and wait.
The dispatcher will probably remain on the line with you until LEO arrives. Make sure you talk them in and give them a clear discription of yourself.
Do not be suprised if they temporarily disarm you and even pat you down.

 

[Trebor]

Never approach the bad guy for any reason. All you are doing is putting yourself at risk by getting close enough for him to grab you, grapple with you, stab you, or otherwise attack you again.

I advise you retreat to a room that you can secure. Close and lock the door (if possible) and call 911 from that room. Cover the door until the officers arrive.

Retreat to cover seems like the obvious choice, but you're potentially leaving an armed (and wounded) BG. Ensuring that if he's coming around, he's coming around unarmed seems prudent, but also has some risks. Still, the question was: "what is the protocol" and if LEO retreats to cover, that's the answer.

If he's physically unable to move, then he won't be coming after you.

If he's physically able to move, and he was shot, odds are he'll flee the scene.

If he does decide to continue the attack after you've shot him and you've retreated to your safe room, at least now you have a door between you ahd him and you are in a much better position. All you have to do is cover the door. If anyone tries to break down the door, make sure it's not the police, and if it's not, you are a good position to fire.

 

[Jon_Snow]

I find it odd no one mentioned reloading. I would move to a better position, keep my head and gun pointed at the BG and reload if I have one available. Call 911 and let LE clean up. One thing people keep mentioning is an ambush by the BG's friends. You can keep your head pointed at him while letting your eyes roam every few seconds. It won't telegraph that you've shifted your attention.

 

[shockwave]

Thanks for the reinforcing info, Trebor. I can see from your qualifications that you've probably answered this question and similar before.

 

[Shadow 7D]

I think this is kinda like the whole "and then I'll use my handcuffs to "secure" him".

I believe that Mas Ayoob and a number of modern gun writers have chimed in on this subject. But my last prioty would be approaching the guy, First is a safe position to keep him covered from, I would think as just Joe from the street, if it came to court that the part a political DA would love is

"And then I ran up to him, I was going to disarm him and he XXXX so I shot him again..."

If the guy is down, he's still a threat, and what you do is very case specific, the cops don't move to "secure" a guy they just shot, and I get that from TV. You want to remain safe, that is why you carry, I would put a crevat at if you live somewhere where the response time is like an hour, your "victim" will be in 3 catagories, DRT, critically wounded, and the last i'll call wounded (may or maynot be incapacitated) For the Critical guy, it's quite a bit of medical training and supplys that make the difference between him living and dying. And that is a HUGE can of worms.

 

[toxicity]

BTW, If the intruder is still a threat, (at least in my state) you may contingue to fire until the threat is neutralized. I know of no other threat an intruder could pose in my home that doesn't include a threat to my life.

 

[wishin]

If the BG is lying on the floor bleeding, I don't expect he'll play possum for very long. Keep your distance and keep him covered while calling 911. If there's family to consider, evacuate them as soon as you reasonably can. Never approach him.

Once you're convinced he's down for good make sure the crime scene buttresses your position. (kidding here). Make sure your firearm is put down as the police get there - you don't want the police to get nervous when they enter. It would ruin your good home defense actions to be shot after the fact by an LEO.

 

[navyretired 1]

Some expert's disagree but a few things seem obvious.
1. To keep family safe, you keep eye on BG while having family retreat to a defendable or safe position. Hopefully with you between danger and them.
2. Tell 911 you are armed but will put down weapon and show hands when LEO have arrived and cleared any possible exterior danger or strangers then announced and identified themselves.
3. Don't move anything nor reload unless you suspect further danger. The physical evidence must match your story and anything you do after the BG is down and still will be studied carefully.

 

[Cyclimus]

Tactical reload, save the magazine in a pocket - you must assume that the intruder has an accomplice. I wouldn't approach the intruder but you must move to a position of cover and one where your room vision is maximized (a corner behind furniture, etc). Retreating to another room is not a horrible option as it buys you distance. Room vision is vital because you can see the accomplices before they see you, way easier to cover yourself when only worrying about 90 degrees of vision (in a corner).

Explaining a tactical reload is easy. "I fired three shots, my magazine holds 7 and I was afraid that he had an accomplice, so I reloaded in order to have a fully loaded firearm in that event." Most prosecutors wouldn't try to use this against you as it makes too much sense in the eyes of a jury.

 

[Jon_Snow]

3. Don't move anything nor reload unless you suspect further danger.

You should ALWAYS expect further danger.