Study Martial Arts.

[falnovice]

Hard to soft and soft to hard is very good advice. I actually gace the same advice to a girl who works for me recently.......but this involved a nonfunctioning speedometer.

Timthinker,

Yeah, since then I have learned to open my hand when hitting something hard. Gotta love those elbows for close in work.

 

[sacp81170a]

Elbows have the added advantage of being useful as blocking tools. Ever try to kick or punch someone and have them block it with their elbow on purpose? Gives new meaning to the words "painful bone bruise." Owww!

 

[FireArmFan]

I agree that martial arts is a great thing to know. I took some Tae Kwon Do when i was younger and I am currently looking at joining an Eskrima school.

On a side note, for people who are interested in martial arts should check out the show Human Weapon on the history channel. It's on Friday nights.

 

[Brian@ITC]

I could not agree with you more! The problem is that a lot of Americans are lazy and do not want to spend the time necessary to learn unarmed combat skills. With this mindset they tend to focus on the "quick fix" to self-defense. The handgun has become the "diet pill" of self-defense. The sad fact is that most people do not practice on drawing and dry firing from concealment, therefore they are fooling themselves as to the fact they can get their gun out and use it.

Anyways, when I teach classes and I even emphasize the point on our first DVD on concealed carry, I believe the most valuable tool one can possess besides mindset and awareness is unarmed combat skills. Let's face it, you cannot take your gun everywhere! It just isn't possible. For those of you who do not possess unarmed skills, WHAT are you going to do when you are confronted the time you don't have your gun on you?!!!

I tell people they need to know how to defend themselves unarmed OVER carrying a gun. One has to stay alive long enough in the fight to POSSIBLY have the opportunity to draw their gun. The gun is NOT the solution to your problem. However, if it is your only option because you do not have unarmed skills, then YOU have placed yourself in a very bad situation.
_________________________
Brian K. LaMaster - President
Innovative Tactical Concepts, LLC
Modern Warrior Talk

 

[Glock Glockler]

Brian@ITC

Excellent post, when people look for tools so they don't need to aquire skill it's a very bad situation.

I many circumstances being armed can make you more vulnerable than being empty-handed: when one draws a gun they move their hand away from the threat, so they have to move back and then forward in order to engage, where the threat only has to move forward in order to clock you and the lights might go out at that point. If one is not armed they might not fall into this trap.

The real problem stems from the fact that people ascribe a kind of power to the guns that they just don't have, and they feel that since they have the ultimate Navy Seal Combat extreme tactical pistol loaded with ++++p++++ hydro-stak rounds that they are now Jason Bourne. At the end of the day they're just tools and will not make the user an ultimate bad@$$.

Top quality tools are great things but they're no substitute for cleverness, knowledge, and skill.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

What I've begun to ponder is what I'll do as I age. I've just turned 35 and a lot of injuries from various things are creeping back up on me. And, I'm contemplating the coming years and self defense.
It's hard to imagine that 35 years from now that I would be trying to box a 18 year old kid on the street. So, I settled on AiKiDo years ago as something that I can do the rest of my life.
And, as I age, I should be able to continue the practice on into my old age in addition to carrying a firearm for defense.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Wheelgunslinger,

Get to a gym BEFORE you go into martial arts. It's like tennis, you get fit to do tennis, not do tennis to get fit.

I'm 52. 5th black. I have injuries over the years. But I work out in the gym three days a week, and teach/workout in TKD two days a week now.

At the gym don't over do it. At first low weights and lots of reps. Just 45min to 1 hour. Try several machines for upper, lower, and middle. Over time you will get fit enough to go into some martial art (and feel good!!!)

Do that NOW. Don't wait. You won't regret it.

 

[Brian@ITC]

If I may ad something to Glock Glocker's post... I believe what you said about moving is true IF you have been trained with "inside the box" training.

ITC integrates unarmed combatives with the use of firearms which ARE ONLY TOOLS (this in itself is outside the box thinking)!!! Most of our tactics are based around unarmed combatives because we feel that your tactics should not change simply because you have a gun in your hand. However, that is not what is taught amongst firearms instructors. What is taught (for the most part) is that if you have a gun you do "this". Someone PLEASE tell me WHY that is? I know why, I just want to see if others know why. If I can end the situation without drawing my gun, that is a good thing! As you will see if you follow the link provided, I could do the same move without a gun. I believe the last photo demonstrates just that.

http://www.modernwarriortalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210

Strambo
Martial Arts exist only to teach...martial arts. They may have varying levels of relevance to true violent conflict (or not) but, no matter, the only thing they will teach you for sure...is that martial art. The only goal they have is to teach that style. The best thing to study in order to survive a violent situation is how to injure other human beings in the most efficient manner. So...a knowledge of anatomy combined with a knowledge of how to generate as much force as possible with your body to apply to weak anatomical locations.

I totally disagree with martial arts exist only to teach martial arts. The art I study has taught me to think outside the box and that a gun is only a tool. It has also taught me tactics that are applicable when using a firearm. It is normally upon yourself to study the anatomy because there just isn't enough time to do so in the "dojo". Martial arts teach you to research things and find out why things work or why they do not.

_________________________
Brian K. LaMaster - President
Innovative Tactical Concepts, LLC
Modern Warrior Talk

 

[CWL]

Firearms knowledge IS a martial art.

 

[Steel Talon]

FWIW..

I started my journey in 1964 and have been a dedicated student ever since. It is my belief that most fights fall into brawling period. Even with two skilled fighters, w/in seconds of a fight, brawling takes over. People get gassed and a lucky punch is landed. Inevitably the fight goes to the ground.

Now, where ones skill comes in is with the first strike, setting up the target and striking it quickly and simultaneously grabbing onto your opponent and transitioning yourself to his back, to disrupt his computer through choke or strike. You do not want to go to the ground with him. You want to discard him to the ground

Hands should be open and not closed into fists, open hands provide for a larger contact area and allows for grasping and directing the movement of your opponent.

To take a person quickly out of the fight then you must be committed to take away his ability to see, breath, or stand. (Singly or combination off.)

My hands take me to my pistol; my pistol takes me to my battle rifle. At any interval that I can create an escape route I will take it.

Peace ,
ST~

 

[Steel Talon]

What I've begun to ponder is what I'll do as I age. I've just turned 35 and a lot of injuries from various things are creeping back up on me. And, I'm contemplating the coming years and self defense.
It's hard to imagine that 35 years from now that I would be trying to box a 18 year old kid on the street. So, I settled on AiKiDo years ago as something that I can do the rest of my life.
And, as I age, I should be able to continue the practice on into my old age in addition to carrying a firearm for defense.

Hello wheelgun,

Your still young My suggestions ($0.02) would be this.

#1 Stay limber, stretch your muscles and tendons everday.
#2 Keep your waist lean and strong. All martial force flows from a strong waist.
#3 Stay hydrated. Drink a gallon of water each day

Peace
ST~

 

[frogomatic]

While I wholeheartedly agree with the underlying meaning of this thread, I wouldn't recommend studying just any martial art. I had been studying several forms of martial arts for about 8 years when I found myself in a serious 'street' fight. I lost, and got hurt pretty bad. It was through this experience that I learned the difference between artistic forms, and combat forms. Many times martial arts is little more than basic physical exercise, and while this is good for your health, it does little to teach a person the in's and out's of actual combat. Since that unpleasant @ss beating, I've started kickboxing. I have had the misfortune of having these skills tested outside the ring, much to my adversary's chagrin. Take a careful and objective look at the style you are learning, is it more theory and art? or is it practical and effective? I would strongly recommend to anyone who seriously wants learn unarmed self defence to take up a full contact training style. Regardless of form, it is the experience of being hit by, and hitting an adversary that is the most valuable.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Thanks for the advice guys.
I actually have a pretty regular exercise regimen and have been involved in AiKiDo for a while. I'm just looking to reassess what I'm doing and take a different direction if need be. I think we tend to get too involved in branding "I'm a Colt/Aikido/Benchmade/etc... kind of guy". I'm looking to push myself harder but have skills I can hone until I'm 80.
But it bears saying that one should make an effort to be in shape before taking up something strenuous and dynamic like MA.

I'm actually looking forward to taking up Yoga and Tai Chi to stay limber. A lot of the arts I wouldn't even think about when I was 18 are starting to appeal to me even if they aren't overtly and obviously dangerous to my untrained eye. Maybe I'm getting older and wiser.
And since I've just about ruined my shoulders with archery (about 20 years worth), I'll have a little more spare time and money to train.

Maybe I'll even start carrying a brass puker...
But, some form of physical martial art training will always be in my routine.

 

[sacp81170a]

I lost, and got hurt pretty bad.

Hmmm, you're still around to tell us about it, so I'd say you didn't lose.

I think we tend to get too involved in branding "I'm a Colt/Aikido/Benchmade/etc... kind of guy".

IIRC, there were something like 18 specific skills that a samurai was supposed to be trained in, and what we call "martial arts" only covered four or five of those. Kenjitsu, kyujitsu, naginata-jitsu, yari-jitsu and taiho-jiitsu just covered the basics. When firearms became available, those who embraced them (Oda Nobunaga comes to mind) handily defeated those who did not.

Martial arts includes firearms, but knowing how to use only firearms limits you. In Katori Shinto-ryu, one of the koryu(old styles), they still train in naginata and yari, not so they can become expert in their use but so they can better understand how to counter those weapons with the katana. The same principle applies to today's environment.

 

[30 cal slob]

my pappy was a master in a "hard" style asian martial art.

these skills came in handy when i misbehaved.

he absolutely HATED guns. took away every single pellet gun i ever bought home.

which is why i'm such a gun nut now.

one thing i've learned through years of martial arts training ...

1. distance between you and your opponent(s) is your friend.
2. you fall back on the most basic of techniques for the street.
3. you are screwed if your opponent is adept at grappling and you are not (see #1).

i have earned a black belt in one style.

when confronted with physical force, i'd rather just walk away or OC the dude if necessary.

where lethal force is required to preserve my arse, i'd much prefer to carry my gun, thank you. i tend to agree with those ninjutsu dudes who viewed unarmed combat as a means of last resort after weapons have failed.

 

[Brian@ITC]

sacp81170a
Martial arts includes firearms, but knowing how to use only firearms limits you.

AGREED!!! I was hoping that someone would say this! So, I guess the question is, are YOU limited in your options should you face a life threatening situation? Hey, it is YOUR life on the line. If you want limited chances of survival, that is YOUR business. But do not think that you WILL get your gun out simply because you have one on you! You may very well have to fight unarmed long enough to attempt to draw your gun. I think that people who carry guns tend to forget that you are in a FIGHT for your life and the gun will “cure everything!”

In my opinion there is no such thing as “gunfighting” from a civilian perspective. I believe that you are in a fight for your life that involves one or more guns. The term gunfighting tends to change the mindset of what is actually taking place. “Gunfighting” is the “Amercian martial art” because most Americans are too lazy to learn how to defend themselves unarmed.

sacp81170a
The same principle applies to today's environment.

I believe this is one of the truest statements I have ever heard and said myself. The “gunners” tend to think differently though because this is what they have been some firearms instructors.

30 cal slob
1. distance between you and your opponent(s) is your friend.

Generally true, but not always. Sometimes being close is to your advantage.

_________________________
Brian K. LaMaster - President
Innovative Tactical Concepts, LLC
Modern Warrior Talk

 

[30 cal slob]

Gunfighting” is the “Amercian martial art” because most Americans are too lazy to learn how to defend themselves unarmed.

Well, I think that's a bit of a strong statement. I don't disagree that unarmed self-defense can be be useful...but ...

I would guess that most of us live pretty harried lives. I'm at my desk by 7 a.m., don't leave it until 7 pm. I try to squeeze in an hour of PT (running) when I get home. On the weekends, my energies are divided between chores, errands, and chasing young kids around the house and making Mrs. Slob happy. IF I am lucky, I will have an hour or two free to hit the range, punch holes in the right spots on the targets, and clean guns. If I forego some sleep, I can tinker with the reloading press. If I've collected a LOT of cookies in the jar, I might take the weekend to attend a firearms training course.

IMO, unarmed self-defense requires at minimum of 3-5 days/week of regular training/repetition and interactive instruction as well as corrective feedback to be useful. And if you don't regularly practice even the most BASIC techniques, you'll forget them.

Who the hell has time (and the $$$) for that nowadays?

Unarmed self-defense is a lot MORE complicated than identify target, position muzzle accordingly, and pull the dang trigger.

 

[Brian@ITC]

I TOTALLY understand the busy schedule thing. If anyone has a busy schedule, I DO!

Americans tend to work too much and the end result is not much time for other things. I spent over 8 years of my life working a minimum of 70 hours per week. Another three years I worked 84 hours a week, remodeled my home, tried to be a father, husband, and find time to myself for the things I enjoy.Our focus is what WE CHOOSE for it to be on. Family is definitely #1 in my book.

And if you don't regularly practice even the most BASIC techniques, you'll forget them.

That is probably true for just about anything. However, once you achieve a certain level of skill, it takes less time to maintain that skill level. Not that you shouldn't continue to improve your skills.

Here is the issue, you cannot count on taking the attacker immediately out of the fight with your handgun. If you (this applies to everyone reading) are one of those people who believes that you WILL take the attacker out, and you shoot them and they don't just fall down and die right then, and they are coming at you and you are out of bullets, what is your plan NOW?

Your life depends upon the amount of skills that you possess. The more you possess, the better chance of survival you will have. My unarmed skills go with me EVERYWHERE I GO, whereas I cannot carry everywhere I go because of stupid gun laws and metal detectors, etc. So, for those of you who choose not to make the time, what are you going to do? How are you going to defend your children, spouse, etc. if you are not carrying? Is the price of $60.00 per month and let's say you go to class one day a week because of your busy schedule, and class is 2 hours long. You are receiving 8 hours a month which is more than you would be by not doing it at all. It is personal training time that makes the difference more so than the "dojo" time. If I don't throw "x" amount of punches and kicks, etc. on my own time, then my dojo time is not going to be as good as it could or should. Regardless of how much we work, or whatever, we ALL have 15 minutes a day to punch, kick, draw and dry fire, etc.

Back to the price. What is the $$$ amount on your life, your kids lives, your spouses life? What if something happens and you loose one of them because you weren't carrying and didn't have unarmed skills? Would you now take the time to learn unarmed skills regardless of the cost or time schedule you have? Would it NOW be worth the sacrifice of time and money? I would say that we should all take this into consideration BEFORE something happens and we regret the decision not to be proactive!

Beside the "lazy" factor, the majority of Americans also have the mindset of "It won't happen to me." WE MUST TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR WELL BEING AND FOR THOSE WE LOVE WHO DO NOT SEE THE NEED TO LEARN HOW TO DEFEND THEMSELVES!

As with anything, movement is key in your survival. If you have good tactics (movement) and know how to apply some of the most basic techniques, or how to strike effectively, then your chances of survival are pretty good in my opinion. A lot of the techniques taught are just "icing on the cake" so to speak. They are just more options. However, the BASICS are most important. I never said that you need to become a black belt or whatever. Not that it wouldn't hurt! But just develop some solid fundamentals so that you have more options.
_________________________
Brian K. LaMaster - President
Innovative Tactical Concepts, LLC
Modern Warrior Talk

 

[30 cal slob]

What is the $$$ amount on your life, your kids lives, your spouses life? What if something happens and you loose one of them because you weren't carrying and didn't have unarmed skills? Would you now take the time to learn unarmed skills regardless of the cost or time schedule you have? Would it NOW be worth the sacrifice of time and money? I would say that we should all take this into consideration BEFORE something happens and we regret the decision not to be proactive!

Hey, preaching to the choir, man.

I guess it all boils down to priorities. Lots of less free time to devote to unarmed self defense, especially around fishing and hunting seasons.

 

[mokin]

I noticed most of the focus on this thread is combat form oriented. As long as the practitioner knows what he/she is learning will not be appliclable in a fight what is wrong with learning a martial art to get/stay fit?

 

[Brian@ITC]

There is nothing wrong if that is why you are training! I would rather see someone join for that reason and be healthy than not to train and be unhealthy because they aren't doing anything!

 

[gunsmithgirl]

O.K. I have to put my 2 cents in here.

1. On training without pads/gloves- I am not what most people would think to be a powerful person.(5'4" 110lb athletic female) but if I hit a 100 lb heavy bag without gloves I will break hands, jam knuckles and only cause injury that will harm me later in life.I have no problem without them but I spend at a minimum 30 min-1 hour every day hitting the bag.Training without gloves is stupid.

2. Yeah most martial arts are a waste of time.Practice a mix (MMA) of several and you come up with something worth a damn.Train in western boxing, Muay Thia, BJJ,wrestling and other martial arts.

3.Training will help you on the street if you ever need to use it.You will instinctively hold a guard without dropping it when you punch/kick like most people do.your punches and kicks are precise and hard.getting someone in an arm bar,knee bar,choke,ect. will be second nature.You get used to being hit sometimes you gotta suck one up to get a good one in.

4. You cannot take a gun everywhere.If someone else has one, yeah you are screwed. But if it comes down to a physical fight you will have the advantage,even if your opponent is much larger/stronger than you.

 

[Autolycus]

I will be signing up for an MMA school in my area very soon. It will be kickboxing and grappling.

 

[sacp81170a]

if I hit a 100 lb heavy bag without gloves I will break hands, jam knuckles and only cause injury that will harm me later in life.

Training without gloves is stupid.

I see your point for "training purposes", but you should see my point about not hurting yourself in a fight. If you can't hit a heavy bag without gloves without hurting yourself, then why would you think you can hit a human being without gloves without hurting yourself? Do you wear gloves all the time? Either you need to train without gloves on the bag to determine how hard you can hit without jamming knuckles and breaking bones, or you need to modify your techniques so you can hit as hard as you can without breaking bones. That's my point about sports based arts. With gloves and pads, you can get away with using techniques that will get you hurt in a real fight without them.

Take a simple jab, for instance. It's real easy to get used to rotating that wrist to get the "snap" you want. Look at the way the old style bare fisted boxers like John L. Sullivan held their hands and you'll see that they held them in a more vertical position. This was so they didn't break their own bones while striking. They couldn't strike as hard, but they could continue the fight. If you want to rotate your wrist to get that snap, consider striking with the heel of your palm rather than your knuckles, especially if you're striking to the jaw. You lose a little bit of reach, but you can compensate for that with footwork, if you practice that way.

Again, I mean no disrespect to anyone's art or sport, but training for conflict in the ring has the barest resemblance to training for conflict on the street. I have yet to see the MMA fight where eye gouging, biting and crotch grabbing were allowed. Gloves, pads and rules are not common elements in a street fight.

No self respecting firearms trainer would advocate that you train with one weapon on the range and then carry an entirely different one on the the street. That's the equivalent of training for sport technique and then believing you're ready for the street.

 

[auschip]

I have yet to see the MMA fight where eye gouging, biting and crotch grabbing were allowed. Gloves, pads and rules are not common elements in a street fight.

I have. The attempted eye gouger got his arm broken. It's floating around on youtube somewhere.