Study Martial Arts.

[sacp81170a]

hitting with an open hand will keep your triger finger from being broken.

It'll also keep you from jamming your wrist or breaking your own arm. It's no problem whatsoever to teach most folks how to generate enough energy with their footwork and hip motion to break the bones in their wrist with an ill configured punching hand.

 

[Koz]

I have punched plenty of people in the face and never broken my hand. I did jam my thumb once though but i didn't know I did it until way after the fight and was perfectly able to continue to fight.

 

[Glock Glockler]

Koz,

One might have juggled chainsaws multiple times abeen ok, that doesn't mean it's not much riskier than juggling with bowling pins.

Punching properly takes a lot more time to teach than open handed stuff, it carries a LOT more risk, and it's not nearly as effective.

 

[Koz]

palm strikes can be effective but not as effective as punching. remember there was boxing for hundred of years before gloves (yes I know they punched differently)

but neither are effective as good elbows and knees.

 

[Mikhail Konovalov]

How does the old saying go?

They say "Never hit a man with a closed fist." but it is occasionally hilarious.

 

[Glock Glockler]

palm strikes can be effective but not as effective as punching

Ok, please explain to me why this is the case?

remember there was boxing for hundred of years before gloves (yes I know they punched differently)

And this proves what, exactly?

but neither are effective as good elbows and knees

Again, why is this the case?

 

[Deaf Smith]

Glock,

Here is why punching will hit harder than a palm. The closed fist has strait bone and knuckle to use, your palm still has some soft flesh, not bone to connect with. This can be simply measured by stiking any, say 50 lb bag, with the closed fist as compaired to the open palm.

You can also risk breaking your wrist with an open palm. Can you do a right jab with your palm into someones solor plexus? No? Why? Because if you try you will simply break your wrist as the top of your hand and your fingers are bent back.

Now there are dangers with using a closed fist, that I don't denigh, but a well executed strait punch (or cross) to the jaw, diaphram, and ribs hit much harder than the open palm. And also dangers to using an open hand (like jaming one's fingers and thumbs.)

What one learns to do is use the appropriate tool. There are times for a closed fist, and times for the open palm.

 

[JMusic]

I would have to disagree with the solar plexis statement above. I like open hand techniques but frankly what you throw, or how you throw it depends on your proficiencey more than the technique.

I think any type of structured coarse involving SD can only help. My experience has been this," After the first 10 seconds of initial contact, it becomes a fight of endurance". With that said your conditioning and techniques should prepare for that. At 52 I don't work out as hard as I did at 32. So I prepare for trying to end the fight within 10 seconds. And yes I know that should always be your objective but now I'm much more preemptive.

Many have mentioned talking with the assailant prior to the fight. Verbal skills is a course in itself. These are the skills that can keep you out of the fight or set your opponent up for a disadvatage at the begining of the fight.

Unless I missed it no one has mentioned fighting with a gun on. This can change your tactics to a certain degree and boy you don't want to get in a grappling match over that! Good post and ideas. Take care.

Jim

 

[sacp81170a]

Unless I missed it no one has mentioned fighting with a gun on.

This is precisely why you need to end an encounter before it comes to grappling. Unless you have a retention level 3 holster, backup, and you must go hands on, stay away from close contact if at all possible. That said, learning MA of any kind gives you more tools in the box. You having a firearm makes any hand to hand encounter a deadly force encounter. That's why situational awareness, verbal skills and your attitude are all so important. For those times when you can't carry any other weapons, MA training gives you an edge.

What one learns to do is use the appropriate tool. There are times for a closed fist, and times for the open palm.

Exactly. There are also times for the elbow, forearm, shoulder and fingertips, just as there are times for the toe, heel and sole of the shoe. The first and most important weapon is the mind. It's this tool that martial arts is especially good at honing.

In Iaido, the first form is Mai. The first cutting movement(nukitsuke, for those of you familiar with swordsmanship) is across the eyes of the opponent. The old masters picked that form in the seitei iai to be the first for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that your strategy should be to completely disable your opponent on the first strike and then finish him. There's a lesson there that was won in mortal combat...

 

[Steel Talon]

Personally, the elbow strikes are one of my favorites, and I also agree that a closed fist is needed. But, for me I far prefer the open hand strikes to the face, head and throat. Reason being, they are more forgiving in targeting while moving larger surface area, and fingers can contact delicate tissue more frequently, plus they have a more disruptive effect. Also, depending on what open strike is being used and the proximity of the target I can get more striking energy.

Open hands allow me to grab and direct opponents momentum, also allows me to attack/devastate a joint. My focus is to get behind him to disrupt his computer through choke or strike behind the ear. As I said earlier, I do not want to go to the ground with him for obvious reasons, however, I do want to discard him to the ground when I release and seek safety.

I'm guessing that some of you will agree, that when you strike someone with a clenched fist. It's routinely the wrist that you injure more often than a ring finger or "pinky” knuckle, due to poor lock up. I also agree that for me with open hand striking I've injured my fingers more often than when I hit with a fist. Once(OTJ) when I grabbed a guy’s wrist, my pointer finger slide into his cuff (long sleeve) and became entangled with his with his sleeve as I transitioned him. All said and done I thought (felt) like I peeeeeeled my finger flesh completely off to the bone This was my trigger finger! "If" I would of had to draw and fire my side arm, it would have affected my abilities.

My open hands take me to my pistol. My pistol takes me to my battle rifle. At what ever point I create an avenue of escape I'll take it.

Peace
ST~:cool

 

[Glock Glockler]

If one feels an overwhelming desire to punch it would be wise to limit those punches to soft targets (stomach, neck, etc).

Bad things happen when one punches bone. Many Phillipino systems heavily emphasize things like elbowing the guy's fist as he punches you, they know when it his fist vs. your elbow the fist will take a nasty beating. Punching to the face/head is the fast track to that nastiness happening to your hand.

 

[FerFAL]

Glock Glockler wrote:

Even when wrapping their hands up like mummies boxers routinely break stuff in their hands, this should be an indication that punching people in the face isn't wise.

Nothing “wise” about punching anyone anywhere, but a good punch in the face has worked for thousands of years, for millions of persons and it is taught by practically all reasonable self defense schools and marital arts in one form or another.
SOME boxers brake a bone in their hands sometimes because at the end of their professional careers their bones are weakened, but this depends on each particular person and is in no way standard to all boxers. That kind of damage comes after a lifetime of professional boxing. Amateurs or people that box a couple of times a week don’t have this problem.
The other reason why you MAY end up hurting your hands is, not knowing how to wrap them up properly for practice. Doing this wrong is a good way to hurt you hands. NOW, this does not mean that your hands brake like freaking glass when you punch without protection. I worked my punching bag almost every day for years without any sort of protection and my hands are just fine, knuckles a bit larger than normal, but nothing else. I can still type, work with precision, even paint, draw and sketch well enough to teach my students how to do it.
I now wrap my hands up and use gloves for working out with my punching bag, but that’s only common sense.

”If you have ever been around people who have boxed for 20+ years you will notice they all have major issues with their hands”

There is a very good reason why that occurs: punching, especially to the face/head, is very stupid.
Skull/facial bones + hand bones and muscular tension = broken hands.

Actually no. Strong clenched fist impacting with the knuckle vs. small facial bones, lips and check bones = a messed up face. Gloves aren’t use to protect the hands, they are used to protect the face of the other guy. Now, this isn’t “ballet” either, at least from my point of view, we are talking about hurting people badly. Punching someone in the middle of the face may hurt your hand a bit if you happen to get cut by teeth or a broken nose bone, but the results at the other end are MUCH more effective than a “slap” I’ve done it in the past, and I’m readily willing to exchange a bit of skin off my knuckles for a messed up face. Punches to the side of the head and jaw are also effective, specially without gloves, and you don’t have teeth to worry about.

If you want to mess someone up you'd be 100x better off giving them an open handed slap to the face with a relaxed hand.
The open hand has a lot more surface area which will trigger more nerves to fire which will increase the liklihood of a knockout. It also allows for a much better transfer of energy from you to them, think of that nasty feeling of being hit with a wet towell. Finally, hitting with an open hand will keep your triger finger from being broken.

Please tell me where you learned that so I never approach the place, even by accident.
Relax hand slap to the face messes up someone? What kind of marital art do you practice, hysterical middle age soccer mom-do ?
Seriously, that’s some terrible , terrible advice. Under some circumstances, punching with the heel of the hand is recommended to some people, specially when you have weaker men or women that can’t punch well and/or have weak hands, but a hit with the heel of the hand doesn’t come close to the damage you deliver with a solid closed fist punch.
Going back to the first post, the best thing you can do is learn from someone that teaches CQC, force on force gun fighting using bare hand techniques along with your firearms skill. When fighting in close ranges, chances are that you will end up punching and struggling with your attacker, shooting with one hand while you push/punch / make distance between you and your attacker with your other hand.
I tried TKD for some time but I found boxing to be much more useful as a fist fighting technique and concentrated on that. Boxing is a good “core” then adding other schools to compliment. Only one art or system isn’t enough, try punching, and grabbing techniques, one of the various wrestling arts, knife and gun fighting, try different systems and instructors and use what proves more useful in the given situation.
FerFAL

 

[sacp81170a]

Relax hand slap to the face messes up someone?

The apples vs. oranges comparison comes to mind here. An open handed slap to nerve centers on the neck or the side of the head is a very effective technique. Cf. the NFL rules restricting defensive linemen's use of open handed slaps to the side of the head ("slap and roll" maneuver in pash rushing) due to the number of concussions being sustained by offensive linemen. If they're restricting this technique because of the injuries it produces, even through helmets, it must be rather effective, eh? Hardly "hysterical middle age soccer mom-do".

Punches to the face are effective. So are slaps to the head, palm heel strikes, etc. The difference is that when executed full force, i.e. with all your energy plus the incoming energy of the other person, the punch has a higher likelihood of hurting your hand. Not that it will, just that there's a higher likelihood, else why wrap your hands for support? Use what works for you, what you've trained at the most. The old axiom still holds, "hard target, soft weapon, soft target, hard weapon." The important part is to have more tools in your toolbox.

 

[FerFAL]

palm strikes can be effective but not as effective as punching

Ok, please explain to me why this is the case?

Because, unlike you knuckles, your hands are padded, and those pads absorb energy, energy that is not transferred to your target.
Hitting with your knuckles comes naturally to men because our body is designed that way, it’s not some coincidence. When your first is closed tight, your knuckle bones protrude. The hard bone transfers all the energy through an unpadded, small surface. A wider surface means that the pressure is spread through a wider area, while a small area of contact means more pressure, that’s why you damage more with your knuckles than with the padded palm of your hands. I can brake a guy’s ribs if I get a solid punch to his thorax with my bare hands, no big deal. What does “slapping” someone in the stomach or ribs achieve? Nothing at all. I could probably kill a guy or leave him with some serious damage with a solid, well executed blow to the side of the head. Most boxers can do that, you don’t need to be a heavyweight champion. Problem is, no one stands still for you to deliver a perfectly executed punch. When your adversary isn’t cooperating, as it happens on the street, it’s pretty difficult to deliver such a blow.
Slapping with the padded palm of your hand may stun someone, but you are wrong, it’s not more effective, nor does is hurt someone more than a closed fist punch.

If they're restricting this technique because of the injuries it produces, even through helmets, it must be rather effective, eh? Hardly "hysterical middle age soccer mom-do"

.

Punching players is also restricted, but I’ll keep that in mind if I’m ever attacked by a fully suited Football player.
Not much use in punching someone in the face if he uses a helmet though. What I’m saying is that there’s no comparison between punching someone in the face and slapping him, not in terms of damage delivered.

FerFAL

 

[strambo]

The padding on the palm is minimal, that's not why it delivers less concentrated force. The reason is because the surface area is larger, therefore less force per sq. inch.

Can you R jab with a palm to the solar plexus without hurting your wrist? Of course, it's easy. Just turn your hand so the fingers are pointing to the side which will have the curvature of the torso going away from the hyperextension of the wrist. Can you break ribs with a plam in the position described above? You bet, if your whole body mass is behind it with 12 inches of penetration or more. You will distort the rib cage and exceed their tensile strength.

Saying a punch is better than an open hand (or vice versa) is like saying a carbine is better than a shotgun. Better for what? In what application? What configuration? What target?

 

[Glock Glockler]

a good punch in the face has worked for thousands of years

Plenty of people have defended themselves with punches, sure, but if I have a better tool available why shouldn't I make use of it?

for millions of persons and it is taught by practically all reasonable self defense schools and marital arts in one form or another

Sorry but this doesn't cut any ice with me, just people everybody does it doesn't make "it" intelligent. "Everybody" thought the Earth was flat before they thought it was round.

SOME boxers brake a bone in their hands sometimes because at the end of their professional careers their bones are weakened, but this depends on each particular person and is in no way standard to all boxers. That kind of damage comes after a lifetime of professional boxing. Amateurs or people that box a couple of times a week don’t have this problem

I've personally witnessed a handful of fights where people have messed up their hands via punching, I also know PLENTY of people who have done so. I admit that IF it's done properly to the right places that the risk drastically declines but that also means a lot more time training and a longer learning curve. If I was given 10 minutes teach someone how to defend themselves I could think of much better uses of that time than on punches, even if 10 months was given there are still better uses. If someone rather advanced wants to play around and work on it they won't get any flack from me, having that tool isn't a bad thing but it should come at the expense of other more important skills.

Strong clenched fist impacting with the knuckle vs. small facial bones, lips and check bones = a messed up face

I guess I was just imagining all thsoe guys with the messed up hands. The issue is not whether a punch will do damage to a face, I certainly wouldn't volunteer to be punched in the face, but whether or not a better tool for the job exists. You can eventually fell a tree but hitting it with a sledgehammer but I would prefer a sharp axe.

but the results at the other end are MUCH more effective than a “slap”

Gee, I accidentally knocked a training partner out of his wits for a few minutes yesterday with one of those slaps, that must have been my imagination as well.

Slaps can be done with FAR less tension in one's body then a punch, they cover a greater surface area, they pose less risk to the person throwing it, I'm having trouble just dismissing those facts and jumping on the punch bandwagon. I can slap something pretty damn hard and while my hand might hurt I'm not going to break my bones, if I try punching hard objects I will break stuff on me.

Please tell me where you learned that so I never approach the place, even by accident

Ever see a Volleyball player serve the ball? Do you think it would work out well for you if one of them who was good just made a serve on your face instead of the ball? I don't know what you think of when I say "relaxed strike" but it's probably not the same thing I am thinking of.

 

[Zen21Tao]

In the martial arts, preparation is everything. I hear a lot of analytical advice being given and this is all great advice, but it must be taken and incorporated into ones study way before it is needed. The key to martial arts is to practice so much that when it comes time to use it, you don't have to think, you simply react.

One of my instructors had a saying, if you are still thinking when the first strike is thrown, you have already lost. What he means is that one must be prepared enough to rely on his physiological muscle memory that has been developed through all his training. Ultimately, his success or failure on that day will be the accumulated result of all of his training (or lack there of) up to that point.

I should also say that I am firm believer that it is not a Martial Art style that is superior, it is an individual martial artist and this superiority is because that individual martial artist is better trained in his style than the other martial artists is in his. In the end, regardless of what you study, you will only be as good as you have trained yourself to be.


This same principal also applies to using a gun for self-defense. The biggest difference I see between Martial Arts (I have been studying various styles since 1991) and having a gun is that with a gun you are USING a weapons but with martial arts, you ARE the weapon. In fact, I like to think of a gun as just another tool/weapon to be incorporated into a fighting system NOT the entire fighting system itself.

 

[sacp81170a]

Punching players is also restricted, but I’ll keep that in mind if I’m ever attacked by a fully suited Football player.

Non sequitur.

Not much use in punching someone in the face if he uses a helmet though.

Why is that? Because you'll only hurt your hand and not hurt him, that's why...

What I’m saying is that there’s no comparison between punching someone in the face and slapping him, not in terms of damage delivered.

The facts are conclusive. A hard slap to the side of the head through a helmet causes far more damage than a punch ever could while doing far less damage to your hand. You're right, there is no comparison. Your argument is that a punch is far superior to an open handed slap. My argument is that, while a punch is an effective technique, an open handed slap is also effective and puts you at less risk of hurting your own hand. I provide a concrete example and you simply reiterate your assertion. Try the technique a couple times before you run it down. I've done both a few million times each(literally, I've been training for over 30 years) and each has its place.

I should also say that I am firm believer that it is not a Martial Art style that is superior, it is an individual martial artist and this superiority is because that individual martial artist is better trained in his style than the other martial artists is in his. In the end, regardless of what you study, you will only be as good as you have trained yourself to be.

I agree completely.

 

[FerFAL]

“Gee, I accidentally knocked a training partner out of his wits for a few minutes yesterday with one of those slaps, that must have been my imagination as well.”

You “ accidentally knocked a training partner” unconscious yesterday? What kind of accident was that? What martial art or defense school do you train, that believes that slapping is better than punching? I’m just curious, that’s all.

FerFAL

 

[Glock Glockler]

FerFAL,

He wasn't unconscious, he took a pretty good hit and needed to sit down for a few minutes before he could get back into the drill.

As we were training he parried a strike from me but with quite a bit of force, which spun me around, my rear hand was what caught him. I wasn't trying to hit him, just to regain my balance, it just happened that he moved right into it.

As for the belief that openhanded work is better than closed fists, you see that all the time in classical Ju-jutsu. In those days people wore armour on the battlefield and trying to punch someone in that armour or helmet wasn't too smart.

 

[FerFAL]

Thanks Glock Glocker, what martial art/school do you practice?

FerFAL

 

[JLStorm]

Might want to drop a note to all your martial artist buddies who are great in the ring, and have an over inflated sense of security in the real world. I used to train under some of the guys that attended Fairtex regularly, it wasnt long after I heard this story from one of the guys on my team that I started actually using my ccw permit regularly
.
http://www.ikfkickboxing.com/AlexGong.htm

...At around 4:35 PM (PST) a car hit another car at the Fairtex Training Center in San Francisco with the driver pulling away without stopping. The person who's car was hit gave chase after the car and caught up with and confronted him. When done so, the driver of the hit and run car pulled out a gun and shot the chaser through his window in the chest. The victim fell back and bled to death within 10 minutes in the middle of the street.

I find that people who carry guns are much more sensible about avoiding violence and confontation than many ring jockeys or wanna be fighters that train in most dojo's. This is an example of a world champion and instructor loosing that sensibility. IA good firearms instructor most probably wouldnt have proceeded in the same way.

At any rate, that being said I find martial arts benefits people who carry most by muscular control while shooting, breath control, concentration, and situational awareness, especially regarding the specific body movements of others such as where their hands are.

Balance is key Sorry if I sound harsh, but...Im just sick of people who spend time in a ring or in a dojo assuming they know anything about fighting in the real world....it just isnt the same beast and never will be.

 

[FerFAL]

sacp81170a wrote:
My argument is that, while a punch is an effective technique, an open handed slap is also effective and puts you at less risk of hurting your own hand. I provide a concrete example and you simply reiterate your assertion. Try the technique a couple times before you run it down.

Now I’m curious, what kind of marital art or defensive school/ technique do you practice?
It seems to be very similar to G Glocker’s.
PS: What's "Non sequitur"?
My comment may have sounded a bit smart***** but it’s actually well founded. It’s safe to say that 99.99% of the time, if I need to defend myself, my attackers wont be wearing helmets so I don’t see the point of practicing something that would work better against a bad guy wearing one vs. an attacker with NO helmet or plate armor.

FerFAL

 

[sacp81170a]

FerFAL,

In fairness, I don't know your background and I don't know if you've watched much American football. To describe the kind of slap I'm talking about, think of a guy 6'5"(205 cm) tall weighing 300+ pounds(135 kilos) who bench presses 500+ pounds(240 kilos) swinging his hand full force with maximum wind up and body weight against the side of the head of another man of similar physical dimensions, not drawing back and hitting him pitty-pat with a dainty slap. Given the enormous force generated, these guys were doing this all season long for years with no ill effects to their hands and were causing so much damage from the impact(even through a helmet designed to absorb the impact) that the technique is not allowed anymore.

Granted, you and I might not be able to deliver such a blow, but the hands of these men are not constructed differently than ours. The fact that they did this routinely against material that would hurt you if you punched it once proves that open handed slaps can be delivered with less risk of injury to your hand. You and I (given that you are approximately average size) can deliver an effective blow sufficient to hurt someone not wearing a helmet, especially if they are not professional athletes in top shape.

Fighting in the street isn't about hurting the other guy, it's about doing what it takes to get him to stop attacking with minimal injury to yourself. If you feel you can do that best with a punch, kick or whatever you've trained to do, more power to you. A closed fist is a tool that can be used in ways besides hitting with the knuckles. An open hand can be used for striking with other things besides the palm. Both work and are useful tools in the box to augment your skill with a firearm.

Take care.

 

[FerFAL]

JLStorm wrote:
At any rate, that being said I find martial arts benefits people who carry most by muscular control while shooting, breath control, concentration, and situational awareness, especially regarding the specific body movements of others such as where their hands are.

Not only that, most good defensive shooting classes these days include an important amount of combination of shooting and bare hand fighting or fighting with a blunt object ( your gun), because when fighting at close ranges, there’s a chance that you may end up struggling with your target.

FerFAL