Study Martial Arts.

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I have been studying Shotokan Karate for a number of years. Im currently 21 and i have been studying since age 6...I have only been in 1 so called fights in my short life.

One was A guy in my college Physical Ed class got upset and began to yell and cus me out. I was fine with that until he put his hands on me. When that happened I grabed his hand and put him in a joint lock.

I credit this to many years of Kata and free sparring.

Another instance...My instructor and I attend church together and we were eating afterwards. My best friend had started to come and he knew this guy study martial arts. So my buddy fliped out his 3 dollar walmart knife and waved it in front of my instructor. My instructor then hit him and put him in a shoulder lock and right before he slammed his head in the wall we let him go.. It was pure reflex.

The key is realistic force on force training along with traditional kata, basic, and sparring sessions...they all work together..

My instructor is a 3rd degree Black Belt in shotokan karate,
has studied with Francis Fong, Royce Gracie, Dan Insonoto, and countles others.

its all about teaching real techniques that are effective and efficient... and traditional arts have these
 
if I hit a 100 lb heavy bag without gloves I will break hands, jam knuckles and only cause injury that will harm me later in life

Do you think this might indicate that you're doing something wrong?

Training without gloves is stupid

And this advice is coming from a person who just admited that if they had to throw a punch for real they'd destroy they're own body:rolleyes:
 
Ahem, here's something different. As a 6' 1", 130 pound 20 year old who could be easily snapped in twain by a kindergartener who's had too much sugar, I think I can say with a degree of sincerity that I have ZERO hand to hand fighting ability. None. A housecat could take me one on one.

That's why I'm working hard on getting my CHL, not that I would ever shoot an unarmed man who wasn't strangling me or something, but the point remains. I will carry a gun because I'm not only no kind of blackbelt, but because the average guy I see on the street is twice my size. (If only in girth.)

Besides, I wouldn't know where in the name of all everlasting (Insert four-letter word here.) to go to learn this sort of thing. It's not like I can afford a plane ticket to Wu Shu City or anything. The only kinds of martial arts around here are the laughably fake kind (Guys pretending to be Ninjas, gimme a break.), and the lose your lovehandles overnight Yuppie soccer mom sort.

Some hints, maybe?
 
I have. The attempted eye gouger got his arm broken.

Then he didn't do it right and he needs to practice more. The point is that this technique is "illegal", "not allowed", "against the rules" in the ring. On the street...
 
Mikhail Konovalov - just go to a local studio and watch a class. If you like what you see, read up online about the martial art. If you think the studio is worth the time and money, go for it. I used to be a weak little nerd but now I'm a nerd capable of self-defense :D

I suggest: kenpo (Chinese martial art), aikido (requires little strength), or jiu-jitsu.

Kenpo has elements of Karate and aikido and in the US, you do learn a few basic boxing ideas. Great if you want to be a well-rounded artist.
Aikido is the gentle way, you basically counter attacks with locks and then floor your opponent. You need to be smart though, you have maybe .3 seconds to decide what the most effective move is when someone throws a punch at you.
In jiu-jitsu you learn all kinds of grappling techniques, of infinite value if the fight goes to the ground or gets extremely close.
If you're strong enough, judo is like aikido/jiu-jitsu + throwing.

I do not suggest:
Tae-kwon-do. You don't learn to keep your gaurd up, and the thinking is to meet an attack with an attack (for instance, kick and break an attacker's arm when he punches you - not an easy thing to pull off against someone with any kind of fighting skill). Also, you pretty much don't learn grappling and in my experience, it's slow and not worth much unless you're pretty strong and talented.
Karate. You need to be rather strong and flexible to do karate. Granted, if you are then the only complaint I have is lack of locking moves, but I don't think this is what you're looking for.
Kung-fu. In practice, you make far too many movements to counter a simple attack. You need to be fast to make it work and if the attacker is significantly stronger than you are then it's not worth much.
Ninjitsu. Though it had interesting routes, nowadays it's just film-style karate. Looks really awesome, but I question its effectivity in the streets.

PM me if you have further questions.
 
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I have. The attempted eye gouger got his arm broken.
Then he didn't do it right and he needs to practice more.

So, how does one practice eye gouging properly? Aren't they too deadly?

The point is that this technique is "illegal", "not allowed", "against the rules" in the ring. On the street...

For this match, all techniques were allowed. Fish hooking, eye gouging, nut grabbing, throat strikes, everything. When it went to the ground the gouger was positionally dominated and broken.
 
If your opponent is in a dominant position, you are not. All those dirty tricks work--from a dominant position, just like any other submission. If I've got mount or side mount, eye gouges are not going to work. It's been tried. All he's doing by reaching up toward my face is giving me the arm.

I don't understand why it's so easy for people to "get" that they can counter arm bars, chokes, shoulder locks, etc. if the other guy does not first lock up a dominant position, but when it comes to the magic eye gouge, the magic throat strike, the magic groin ripping--those are all supposed to work even when you are being dominated. It doesn't make sense.
 
Martial Arts are good. But they are arts, not necessarily science. It's based on a fighting set where both sides have similar training.

Not going to get into the way I used to train, but beach sand and telephone poles used to cringe when they saw me coming. Way back then, I was fighting for my life, and the game wasn't a game at all.

The best way to train, in my mind? Everyone's body is different, and some things that work well for you, won't work for the next guy. Some guys can punch, some can kick, etc. Find what works for you, and study that. Books are a great resource. The best way to be invincible? Travel in packs. Watch out for each other.

I'd like to think I'm mellowing in my middle age. I certainly hope so.
 
For this match, all techniques were allowed. Fish hooking, eye gouging, nut grabbing, throat strikes, everything. When it went to the ground the gouger was positionally dominated and broken.

Where was this match fought? It certainly wasn't sanctioned here in the good ol' USA. Mutual combat like this is generally illegal.

So, how does one practice eye gouging properly? Aren't they too deadly?

I refer you to the Tao of Jeet Kune Do for proper execution of eye technique. Bruce Lee himself says that the only correct targets in a self defense situation are the eyes and the groin, then he demonstrates a variety of strikes and gouges from a standing position. Basically, instead of punching a guy in the face, you extend your fingers like in yonhon nukite (spear hand strike) and go for the eyes. Be very careful when practicing those techniques because your partner will get a turn to practice on you... ;) (Added comment) One particularly nasty technique he shows is simply raking your extended fingertips across the eyes in a sweeping motion. You've got more reach with your fingers extended, it's very quick, and you don't have to hit very hard to seriously hurt someone. It takes almost no time to learn how to do but it's potentially devastating.

If your opponent is in a dominant position, you are not. All those dirty tricks work--from a dominant position, just like any other submission. If I've got mount or side mount, eye gouges are not going to work. It's been tried. All he's doing by reaching up toward my face is giving me the arm.

You're thinking of going for the eyes after grappling has begun, I'm talking about going for the eyes first, before close contact is made. Even very light, incidental contact to the eyes is enough to injure your opponent badly. Then you can dominate him. Of course, that wouldn't be fair, would it?
 
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if I hit a 100 lb heavy bag without gloves I will break hands, jam knuckles and only cause injury that will harm me later in life

Do you think this might indicate that you're doing something wrong?

Training without gloves is stupid

And this advice is coming from a person who just admited that if they had to throw a punch for real they'd destroy they're own body

Let me clarify this.I can throw a punch without harming myself.I used to train without gloves.Actually used to think they were for wimps.But a few friends who have been boxing for years explained this to me:If you have ever been around people who have boxed for 20+ years you will notice they all have major issues with their hands.I really don't want to wake up when I am 40 with my hands balled up from arthritis.I am not saying you will jam your knuckles/wrist/whatever every time,but a week ago I saw a guy jam his wrist who has been boxing 25 years.A 100 lb bag on the backswing has significant force. Everyone makes a mistake now and then.Gloves will give you the ability to recognize that and correct it,without injury,so you don't make that same mistake without them.
 
Any study of martial arts will include ways to heal the body, saan gong or qigong training so one does not wake up at 40 with a crippled body, but a stronger, more supple body.:)

I study martial arts, not so much to be a tough guy (I'm not and as I get older getting in a fight is the last thing I want to do), but to keep active, fit and supple. Plus if you get a solid club, it's great fellowship.:)
 
El Tejon said:
I study martial arts, not so much to be a tough guy (I'm not and as I get older getting in a fight is the last thing I want to do), but to keep active, fit and supple.

When I was younger, I did it because I had to (ran in the family) and later I did it to impress the chicks. :neener:
 
But a few friends who have been boxing for years explained this to me:If you have ever been around people who have boxed for 20+ years you will notice they all have major issues with their hands.I really don't want to wake up when I am 40 with my hands balled up from arthritis.I am not saying you will jam your knuckles/wrist/whatever every time,but a week ago I saw a guy jam his wrist who has been boxing 25 years.

This is completely correct. What I'm saying is that there is (or should be) a rather natural progression from "hard" style to "soft" as you get older. I started training when I was 17 in Judo and Tae Kwon Do. Nice as it sounds, Judo ("Ju", gentle or soft, "Do", way) is a doggone hard and injurious sport when you train hard at it. There is no such thing as "light-" or "semi-contact" when you get thrown. It's up to you, the mat and gravity as to how bad you get hurt. Tae Kwon Do is by definition a hard style, although there are soft techniques incorporated as you get higher in rank. I took up Tang Soo Do, Kendo, Iaido and Wado Ryu as I moved around in the military.

Then I met up with Larry Kishiyama Sensei from the Goju Kido style and he pointed out that hard stylists tend to win more tournament fights early on in their training but the soft stylists catch up later because they're able to train without so much risk of injuring themselves. That's when the light came on.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't hit the heavy bag. I'm saying you should learn to hit the heavy bag in such a way that you don't hurt yourself or cause cumulative injury to your joints and tendons. Makiwara training with the old traditional board wrapped with rope is a great way to condition your hands, wrists and arms (the support structure) while giving feedback on how hard you can hit without hurting yourself.

Training for a sporting match in the ring means you're pitting your set of defined skills and equipment against another person's set of defined skills and equipment according to a set of rules to determine a clear winner. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, it's a good thing and can help you develop reactions and skills that are useful in a "real" fight.

All I'm saying is that "real" fighting only occurs when there are no rules. In that case, whoever walks away with the least damage physically, legally, financially and more important, morally is less of a loser than the other guy. (There are no "winners" in a real fight.) Attitude is everything. Having respect for your opponent means that you admit his ability to harm you (no matter what killer-diller style of MMA, kung fu or whatever you know) and that you will use every "dirty trick" (I prefer the term "advanced tactics") in the book to prevent that from happening. Having a knowledge of martial arts gives you another extremely useful tool to help accomplish that objective. Having years of training with the proper focus gives you the mental strength to walk away and the wisdom to avoid the confrontation in the first place.

I've said this before, I never get in a "fight". "Fight" implies that the other guy has a chance to "win". If he does have that chance, then I've made a mistake somewhere. Hurting people is frighteningly simple. Keeping from hurting others while preventing them from hurting you and your loved ones isn't.
 
So what kind of martial art for old out of shape folks with a chronic bad back?:confused:
 
El Tejon- Is that a different way of spelling tai chi chuan? I think I have a dvd for that somewhere in my stuff. Could you recommend a book that shows all the forms? I checked on this before,no instructors in my area.

Thanks
 
TWB, yes, there are two romantization systems in use, pinyin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin) and Wade-Giles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wade-Giles). Taijiquan (Grand Ultimate Boxing) is the pinyin system of romanizing "tai chi" which is Wade-Giles. There are many divisions of Taijiquan and then subsets of those divisions, e.g. different types of Yang style.

Depends on what you want to study. My club studies Wu style in addition to our Tanglangquan, although we do Chen style warm up (really pops the hips and shoulders open).

For Yang style I recommend Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's books and DVDs, e.g. http://ymaa.stores.yahoo.net/taijclasyans3.html.. The DVD is good, plus it has a lot of jiben gong (basic training) stretches and exercises which help people with stiff hips, legs and shoulders (standing yoga).

My favorite Taiji book is the one on martial applications, http://www.amazon.com/Tai-Chuan-Martial-Applications-Arts-Internal/dp/1886969442. Lot of people here in the States seem to thing Taijiquan is some sort of slow motion dance for oldsters in the park.:scrutiny:

I think you can get both of those at Borders or Barnes & Noble. However, Taijiquan is all about "root" (we call it torque) and to develop it properly you need to find a teacher at your elbow.

Dr. Yang is leaving for the mountains soon so if you want a seminar under him you'll have to hurry. He told us at the Indianapolis seminar last weekend that he'll be leaving in March of '08.

Where are you? Maybe I can help find an instructor.
 
Approximately 25 miles from Daytona Beach,40 miles from Orlando.Near Deltona,Orange City, 20 miles from Sanford.

Thanks

TWBryan
 
Re: finding the real deal among the McDojos.

Get edumacated! There are some useful principles in finding most of the schools and styles that have all the contents. What I know best are the traditional Japanese and Okinawan budo. Examples:

Karate. It is a complete martial art with a heavy grappling emphasis where the whole system survives, edged and blunt weapons included. All of it comes originally from Okinawa, whence a handful of teachers migrated to "mainland" Japan some 110 years ago. Several styles and schools were founded in Japan but they can be traced back to Funakoshi, Yamaguchi, Ohtsuka, Konishi, Itose, Miyagi and a handful of other household names, mostly before WW2. If you want to train complete karate, find a school where this lineage is preserved and which still has affiliation with a major Japanese main organization founded around 1950 at the latest, preferably earlier.

And, if you can find a school with affiliation to modern Okinawa, it will be hard to go entirely wrong either. Especially Okinawan Goju is as complete as a pedagogical system to learn fighting can be. In any case, look for a chain of certifications going all the way back to the sources, avoid competition orientation and "musical forms" BS.

Jujutsu: as complete as can be. Look for affiliations with big Japanese organizations but also feel confident with lineage back to Morris from the UK. The styles taught in German police academies and the Finnish Hokuto-ryu are also very much the real deal.

Judo: sports. A subset of jujutsu. Not a complete martial art, but waaaaaaaaay better than nothing.

Western boxing: sports. Not a complete martial art, but... look above. A mean jab, good movement and any decent combination trained to a high level will go a loooong way nevertheless. You'll need complementing in the grappling/groundwork.

American Kenpo: look for lineage back to Ed Parker. Very much a complete martial art, but school emphases can vary. Shy away from tournament and competition-oriented teachers.

Jeet Kune Do: look for lineage to Bruce Lee and Dan Inosanto. A very much complete art.

Aikido: look for a direct lineage to Ueshiba. IMHO aikido is a complete enough art, very specialized and potentially highly effective.

Koryu Uchinadi: a sort of a re-invention of Okinawan karate in its most archaic form by Patrick McCarthy. Definitely zero BS, although some "filling in the historic blanks" seems evident. Actually, almost any watered-down tournament style complemented with KU training will be very good indeed, as long as the katas trained are even close to the originals. "Musical forms" champions need not bother...

Taekwondo: essentially sports, not a complete martial art. A concoction of mainly Japanese karate with some traces of older Korean styles put together by a Korean general named Choi in the 1950's. Of late, some schools seem to have complemented their curriculum towards a more complete style but altogether, IMHO, the system lacks foundation. That said, I wouldn't say that IRL to the face of a well-trained TKD player - the training remains overwhelmingly hard and serious a55-kicking skills are definitely acquired. YMMV.

Kyusho-jitsu/tuite: a re-invention of a subset of karate, very advanced kata application. The jury is still out on this... not a complete art as such and BS abound, YMMV. Pressure points or not, there is a fresh approach to old kata here. Dillman seems serious enough, but not entirely convincing. Laaksonen in Finland (European Kyusho-jitsu Tuite) is serious in developing this further, but the essence is still emerging.

Krav Maga: look for a direct affiliation to Imrich Lichtenfeld. That said, the art is rather thoroughly commercialized and variations in the curriculum occur. See to at least that firearms are in the curriculum where you train (yes, they do). Again, the training will in any case be physical and tough.

Tai Chi: a very complete martial art, actually a kung fu (or wushu) style, no BS. Find a school where push hands and sparring are in the curriculum.

Kung fu/Wushu: there are plenty of styles and YMMV greatly. BS abound. Look for Wing chun or some of the other best known, widely practiced styles.

Silat, Kali/Escrima, Arnis etc. Filipino/Indonesian martial arts: look for a direct lineage to the originating countries. Curricula will vary greatly as well as the emphases of the training, but mostly you'll find serious and highly advanced grappling with and without edged and blunt weapons. BS at a minimum, but obviously YMMV.

Muay thai: sports, but... mean enough. Very hard and physical training and yes, it also includes some grappling/throwing. You'll need to complement that part some, but heck yes, it's specialized and tough enough to make you baaaad.

"MMA": reinventing the wheel basically, but with a vengeance. No lineages to follow, no guarantees but WYSIWYG, YMMV. Generally a high tendency towards precious little BS. A welcome movement back to the real thing, to the roots and basics, since a lot of original-sounding martial arts have lost their essence somewhere along the way. If you can't find a "traditional" art school where all the areas were still covered, you'll do good with several MMA teachers. Look for lineage to the ones who win in the cages currently.

This was a handful of picks off the top of my head, written to pass some idle time and to give a few honest, but possibly somewhat biased pointers to anyone in need. My own experience is about 20 years of a complete, traditional Okinawan-based but Japanized karate style with plenty of cross-training, reading, discussion and seminars in other arts. Feel free to complement and comment. I repeat, YMMV! ;)
 
And, to return to the actual topic of the thread: a firearm is definitely only one component of a well-versed self defence arsenal of the individual. If one is clueless as to the unarmed part, the firearm may very well remain in its holster until the BGs pick it happily off when frisking the lukewarm body. Thinking otherwise is fooling oneself in a big way and most likely to have serious consequences.
 
If you have ever been around people who have boxed for 20+ years you will notice they all have major issues with their hands

There is a very good reason why that occurs: punching, especially to the face/head, is very stupid.

Skull/facial bones + hand bones and muscular tension = broken hands.

Even when wrapping their hands up like mummies boxers routinely break stuff in their hands, this should be an indication that punching people in the face isn't wise.

If you want to mess someone up you'd be 100x better off giving them an open handed slap to the face with a relaxed hand. The open hand has a lot more surface area which will trigger more nerves to fire which will increase the liklihood of a knockout. It also allows for a much better transfer of energy from you to them, think of that nasty feeling of being hit with a wet towell. Finally, hitting with an open hand will keep your triger finger from being broken.
 
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