Study Martial Arts.

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MMA(mixed martial arts) all the way. I think if you can utilize certain techniques from different traditional arts you can get the most out of your training. Judo for takedowns, ju-jitsu(wrestling is good too) for ground fighting, and some boxing would help speed up the hands. There are many schools opening up that teach MMA with the rise of ultimate fighting and what not. I find it hard to be enthused by traditional schools that practice board breaking and give out little colored belts. I'm not saying that they are affective but maybe a little one dimensional.

I've been in my share of fights and being able to fight on the ground has been whats got me through a lot of them. I've trained with different MMA schools in the past and would highly recommend something in that format.
 
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fighting with a firearm involved makes your first priority getting away from the other guy before he can take it from you and so you can end the encounter by employing it.
MMA is quite the opposite. Close and attack is the strategy there.

You do bring up a good point though. With every armchair ninja watching mma and running to sign up for the flavor of the month, it may be a good idea to learn how to quickly use that particular skillset against them with a ccw situation in mind.
Plus, MMA doesn't take less time to learn than a traditional art. So, the likelihood of running into a "I used to take MMA" guy is as high as running into a "I used to take Karate" guy.
 
Thanks for the reply sacp81170a.
Either slapping or punching, that kind guy is obviously going to hurt you. The difference is that I’m absolutely sure that that person will hurt you much more if he does so with his fist closed ( with some basic knowledge and training on how to punch of course) than doing so with the palm of the hand.
Myself, I did ITF TKD for a couple of years when I was 18, but quickly moved to boxing which I believe to be much more useful on the street. Recently I’ve been taking some defensive firearm training and we did practice some heel of the hand strikes, but mostly because most shooters are don’t practice punching techniques and the heel of the hand hit is easier for them: Besides, the intention isn’t to hurt your attacker much, just buy time + distance to use a gun operator’s real weapon: His gun.
I wont lie to you or GG, I find the notion of slapping being better than punching and that punching is something stupid pretty hilarious. But I’m serious about being curious about what school of fighting or marital art practices and preaches this. I just wanted a straight forward answer. “We learn or practice this at XYZ ” kind of answer.

FerFAL
 
Now I’m curious, what kind of marital art or defensive school/ technique do you practice?

I currently hold Dan rank in Judo, Tae Kwon Do, Kali Silat, Wadoryu Karatedo, Kendo and Iaido. I have studied Wing Chun with Augustine Fong in Tucson Arizona, attended numerous seminars by Bill Wallace, Dan Inosanto, Joe Lewis, and Chuck Norris to name some of the more famous ones. I've learned more about timing and footwork from Kendo and Iaido than from any of the other arts I have practiced and I currently practice Kendo and Iaido on my own. I do teach defensive tactics at my police department and I visit several of the schools in my local area on a fairly regular basis. I can't say that I use the techniques of one any more than another, but Kendo has taught me much about tiny fractions of an inch making all the difference in the world as to whether or not a particular move works.

PS: What's "Non sequitur"?

Something that doesn't address the argument at hand. Granted, the portion of your reply that I called a non sequitur could also have been called an argumentum ad absurdum (argument taken to the absurd), but it also fit the definition of non sequitur since I wasn't talking about actually being attacked by a professional (American)football player.

I don’t see the point of practicing something that would work better against a bad guy wearing one vs. an attacker with NO helmet or plate armor.

You still forget my most important point which is that it works with less probability of causing injury to oneself, whether or not the opponent is wearing a helmet. We've already had other posters admit that punching has caused jammed wrists, broken bones, etc. We also have one poster who caught a finger on someone's clothing while using an open hand technique, so neither technique is guaranteed safe. In your argument you asserted that an open hand technique is not effective. I say that both are effective against certain targets and should be used where there is less chance of injury. You don't see the point of having additional tools in your toolbox, and I do. Scratch the previous sentence, I just read your reply and obviously you do see the point of knowing additional techniques.

But I’m serious about being curious about what school of fighting or marital art practices and preaches this. I just wanted a straight forward answer. “We learn or practice this at XYZ ” kind of answer.

Actually, none of the hand to hand arts that I've practiced advocate exclusively open hand or closed fist striking techniques. Boxing is the only art I know where fighting is done exclusively with the closed fist. There are striking techniques in Judo but they aren't allowed in tournament competition.
 
One more thing, punch with your middle knuckle. The bone that supports that knuckle aligns straight with the rest of the arm and therefore wont break as easy as the rest of the bones in the hand that are off set to the wrist.
 
Will Learn wrote:
MMA(mixed martial arts) all the way. I think if you can utilize certain tecniques from different traditional arts you can get the most out of your training.
Absolutely.
First and foremost my gun is my best weapon. So if I’m carrying everything else rotates around that. Meaning: Putting distance between me and my target to use my gun.
Box helped me many times, and I once put to use some techniques I learned form a Judoka friend of mine, a choking move, with excellent results.
My boxing background helps me during the defensive shooting class, and it proved useful when practicing these gun retention and shooting techniques against non cooperative partners. Floor fighting is also important to balance your skills, at least some classes, since there’s a chance you my end up just there.
I would also like to add some knife fighting in the nearby future, to put that folder I carry in my pocket to good use if needed. That sounds like a nice balance.

FerFAL
 
FerFAL,

The club I train it is located in Boston, if you're ever up this way feel free to sit in on a class. My instructor doesnt have a name for his system but it draws heavily from Xingyi, Bagua, and Aiki-jujutsu, with some Kali and Silat sprinkled on top.

That being said, why does it matter what art or system I do? Either what I am saying makes logical sense or it does not.

It’s safe to say that 99.99% of the time, if I need to defend myself, my attackers wont be wearing helmets so I don’t see the point of practicing something that would work better against a bad guy wearing one vs. an attacker with NO helmet or plate armor

I think you completely missed the point.

My point was that it's very possible to mess people up with open-handed work, that's why I brought up classical Ju-jutsu, that is if those Samurai guys actually knew anything about combat.

sacp81170a makes a very good point about slaps in the NFL, similarly a sumo wrestler can do horrendous things with their slaps, even to someone wearing helmets. On that note, the skull essentially IS a helmet nature gives us to protect our brains, and hitting a skull isn't fun.

One of the situations I previously mentioned was when I was bouncing: there were a few drunken idiots who had issue with a few other drunken idiots, one of them, a trained boxer opened up with a hook on a drunk guy sitting on a barstool but he didnt quite hit him where he wanted. He got him in the lower forehead off to the side a little and his hand just broke, and what is very interesting is that the guy hit didnt even realize it (God loves a drunk). While Mr. Boxer was screaming in pain from his broken hand a friend of the guy he hit took a beer bottle to the back of his head, apparently he needed close to 100 stitches.

Anyway, it makes sense that if one is going to practice an activity that is inherently dangerous one should look for the safest way to do it, at the very least I don't want to make my opponent's job any easier by destroying my own body.
 

Bagua?? You're evil! :D

This is a humorous aside, but it illustrates where some of the old "my art's better than your art" rivalry comes from. Hwang Kee Nim, the founder of Tang Soo Do, studied in China for some time while he was in the process of synthesizing his art. Apparently there was some bad blood at one time or another between him and some of the schools in the area where he was living. As a result, I have been told by some of the old school Korean guys that I shouldn't practice Pakua(the term I know it by) or if I did I shouldn't let them know I was a Dan rank in Tang Soo Do because of the old feud. I don't vouch for the accuracy of this tale, I merely pass it along as it was told to me. It is a small world, isn't it? :D
 
I have a training tip for you if you plan to do the knife fighting thing: get a couple of washable markers, white shirts and go at it with a sparring partner. The objective of course would be to score the most hits to the torso. If in an actual fight remember to stab if you can, they're more effective. I remember someone told me that a person welding a knife improperly(slashing) can be ten times as deadly if you put a screwdriver in there hand. This being because that same person would inherently stab with the screwdriver as oppose to slashing with the knife. Protect your neck and stay safe.
 
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I have a training tip for you if you plan to do the knife fighting thing: get a couple of washable markers, white shirts and go at it with a sparring partner.

We have an even better training tool at my department, the Shock Knife. They're plastic composite knives that have a "stun" strip built into the edge actuated by a button on the knife. They're part of the Simunitions training gear we have at my department and we use 'em in force-on-force scenarios. They can be dialed up in strength to give a pretty painful shock, so they're useful in letting you know that you've been cut. It makes your training much more realistic since people pay close attention once they've been shocked for the first time. :D

Here's the link:

http://www.shocknife.com/index.html
 
sacp81170a wrote: In your argument you asserted that an open hand technique is not effective.

No, not at all. My main argument was in reply to GG claims about punching someone in the face with your knuckles being “pretty stupid”, and saying that slapping was 100x better.
I believe that punching with your fist is better than “slapping”, so does everyone that practices TKD, Karate and Boxing, just to mention some of the most popular martial arts.
I don’t know ANY school that believes that slapping the face is better than punching, so that’s why I asked.
I don’t agree with everything those marital arts teach, but a punch to the face is pretty basic in all of them and it certainly works, worked in countless fights ever since man walked the Earth.

Actually, none of the hand to hand arts that I've practiced advocate exclusively open hand or closed fist striking techniques.

I never talked about exclusivity. I talked about hitting someone in the face with your fist being better than slapping the face. Karate, TKD along with many other martial arts think the same way too, at least they all agree on this being the most powerful blow you can deliver to an adversary’s face with your hand and none of them worry about braking your hand. The TKD or Karate fighter that believes there is a better way to punch in the face, better than impacting with your knuckles in a tightly clenched fist, that martial artist is yet to be made.
Maybe there’s some other martial art or some other modern system that I don’t know of that believes that slapping the face is better than punching it, so I wanted to check that out.

FerFAL
 
Karate, TKD along with many other martial arts think the same way too, at least they all agree on this being the most powerful blow you can deliver to an adversary’s face with your hand and none of them worry about braking your hand.

My instructors over the years have agreed that a properly executed palm heel strike is the most powerful blow you can administer to the face because you can strike full force without fear of injury. My experience in TKD and Karate have been very much different than yours, but that's only natural. I don't speak for entire arts based on my own experience, I can only pass along what I've been taught.

No, not at all. My main argument was in reply to GG claims about punching someone in the face with your knuckles being “pretty stupid”, and saying that slapping was 100x better.

I apologize for any misunderstanding. No technique is "pretty stupid" if it works. I didn't call punching good or bad, I just pointed out that there is a greater risk of injury in punching a hard target like the head than in hitting it with an open hand technique. My experience and common sense bears this out. Open hand techniques are not dainty slaps, which is how I understood your statements. If I was in error, again, I apologize. I will say that training for sporting contests in the ring can lead you into bad habits because they let you get away with things that can get you hurt in a real fight. Else why wrap your hands for protection?
 
sacp81170a,

While Bagua does have some absolutely awesome stuff in it there is that very legitimate reason NOT to study it: depending on how strong the silly rivalry is the Bagua guys you go to train with might hurt you. I know of a similar situation where an instructor gave a seminar and a naive student from rival system attended and admitted he was from the other school, he got a few broken ribs for his trouble.

Unfortunately I doubt one will learn anything useful in most MA schools thanks to our crooked legal system and also the martial arts culture. Finding someone who knows their stuff and who would teach you out of their garage is probably one's best bet.

FerFAL,

There are places where you can learn similar stuff to what I do but I honestly don't think you'd like them, much of it would be stuff that you have been trained to believe to be stupid. We all have prejudices and paradigms that we operate in, and leaving them is generally a painful process. When I first started training 3 years ago I would have thought just as you do about slapping vs. punching, it was only when we got out the focus mitts and I felt the difference in the power levels between the two that I was even open to listening. MUCH of the stuff I can now clearly see the logic behind was ridiculous to me then, the only thing I can recommend would be to ask yourself how much culture has influenced your thoughts regarding this.

One reason punching/boxing is popular is because it feeds one's ego, it feels tough and manly to throw punches, hell John Wayne had a fist fight that went into the next town, but slapping? That's women stuff, why would a real man do something like that?
 
While Bagua does have some absolutely awesome stuff in it there is that very legitimate reason NOT to study it: depending on how strong the silly rivalry is the Bagua guys you go to train with might hurt you. I know of a similar situation where an instructor gave a seminar and a naive student from rival system attended and admitted he was from the other school, he got a few broken ribs for his trouble.

Thanks for the confirmation. Who'da thunk it? :uhoh:

I'm glad to know that what I was told was out of a concern for my safety and not because someone in Tang Soo Do was holding any grudges. I got the impression that it wasn't "forbidden", just that it wasn't a good idea. I haven't had any direct conversations with anyone with any experience in Bagua, so I wasn't sure what to think. Wow. Just goes to show you can learn something new every day. Thanks again. ;)
 
There are places where you can learn similar stuff to what I do but I honestly don't think you'd like them, much of it would be stuff that you have been trained to believe to be stupid. We all have prejudices and paradigms that we operate in, and leaving them is generally a painful process.
Cant say I didn’t try to understand. Honestly wanted to know about it, but I’m sure you have your reasons for not wanting to tell. Thanks anyway. :)

FerFAL
 
but I’m sure you have your reasons for not wanting to tell. Thanks anyway

Yes, I do, if you're not open to the idea of slapping someone in combat why should I bother discussing other stuff that's out of the norm? Crawling before walking and all that...
 
but I’m sure you have your reasons for not wanting to tell. Thanks anyway

Yes, I do, if you're not open to the idea of slapping someone in combat why should I bother discussing other stuff that's out of the norm? Crawling before walking and all that...
No, of course. I don’t want to discuss anything, just know the name of the martial art or system so as to goggle it up and check it out myself, nothing more.

FerFAL
 
There are no internet clips of the stuff we do, and you also don't want to put too much stock in the clips a school puts out, clips are essentially advertising but make their plain vanilla stuff look interesting for your average joe. MANY arts will hide their better/nastier stuff in various ways and you generally need to pay your dues in a school for several years before your given the real spicy stuff.
 
Will Learn, if you go learn Judo or Jiu-Jitsu at most schools, they'll issue you a silly little colored belt. :)

While Bagua does have some absolutely awesome stuff in it there is that very legitimate reason NOT to study it: depending on how strong the silly rivalry is the Bagua guys you go to train with might hurt you. I know of a similar situation where an instructor gave a seminar and a naive student from rival system attended and admitted he was from the other school, he got a few broken ribs for his trouble.
Now THAT is stupid.
 
Football head slaps were not prohibited because of injury, to my knowledge. They were prohibited because they were too useful--they allowed defensive linemen too much control of offensive linemen, who, it must be remembered, were and are also restricted in their techniques. The pro league is constantly try to tweak the balance between offense and defense for maximum entertainment value.

Head slaps work by moving the lineman's head off line just long enough to get past him. Deacon Jones tore up the league with the head slap, which is what led to its banning.

I now return you to your "My art is cooler than your art" debate.
 
You're thinking of going for the eyes after grappling has begun, I'm talking about going for the eyes first, before close contact is made. Even very light, incidental contact to the eyes is enough to injure your opponent badly. Then you can dominate him. Of course, that wouldn't be fair, would it?
So, you're talking about trying to get the eye gouge with no control over the rest of his body at all? He's standing, you're standing, and you just launch a pre-emptive eye gouge?
I find that very unlikely to work very well. If it works for you, that's fine. It sounds like this is based on the assumption that you'll always get off first. If we're talking about self-defense, I find that very unlikely.

Even very light, incidental contact to the eyes is enough to injure your opponent badly.
That has NOT generally been my experience. I've experienced light, incidental contact to my eyes many times but never been injured badly by it.
I'll say it again--if this works for you, fine. I see it as a low-percentage move with lots of much better alternatives.
And Bruce Lee (brace yourself, now!) was wrong. Other people have done the real-life testing of his ideas that he didn't get to do and we now have a decent idea of what works and what doesn't.
 
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