Shipment of a rifle without ffl

[padd54]

I am trying to ship a rifle to Georgia and the FFl that buyer chose will not send me a copy of their FFL. I have never heard of such a thing. Here is the email response;

Good morning!

The form sent to you is just a standard form from us for the acquisition of the firearm when it is received. Post office, etc, will not require an FFL to be sent with the item. You will be required to let them know that it is a firearm. We do not assume responsibility for the firearm until it arrives at our store, therefore the ATF has advised us in the past that we are not required to send indivisuals our FFL. Please let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks,

I
How do I know you are an FFL? I will not ship the rifle until I can verify that. I require a copy of your FFL. And every time I have shipped, the USPS wants to verify that the rifle is being shipped to an ffl, not an individual which would be illegal!

 

[browneu]

Something doesn't sound right. You might want to ask if the FFL will send it to an FFL in your area. Otherwise the buy will need to find a different FFL for you to ship to.

 

[Rail Driver]

I can confirm that (at least regarding the FFL dealers I use frequently) that they were advised the same by the ATF. That said, all you need to do is get their license number to input to the ATF website to verify the existence and information on the license (as well as the name and address of the licensee)

 

[natman]

There seems to be a current trend among FFLs to be antsy about sending out a copy of their FFL. To me this seems somewhat uncalled for and it certainly would make shipping easier to have a copy. I suppose it would be acceptable to have the FFL# and run an EZ check.

 

[mgmorden]

That said, all you need to do is get their license number to input to the ATF website to verify the existence and information on the license (as well as the name and address of the licensee)

This. You don't legally actually need to have an FFL on file or anything, but they do need to actually BE an FFL, and I like to have a copy in hand just to be sure that they are. If they'll provide a license for verification though, then that's enough to verify it.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I am trying to ship a rifle to Georgia and the FFl that buyer chose will not send me a copy of their FFL

You can look up the business and see if they have an FFL easy enough here:
http://www.atf.gov/about/foia/ffl-list.html

They aren't required to send you a copy of their FFL, and you aren't required to provide a copy to a shipping company/USPS.

So, when they require you to enclose a copy of your driver's license with the gun, are you going to tell them to pack sand, that it's not required?

 

[padd54]

"So, when they require you to enclose a copy of your driver's license with the gun, are you going to tell them to pack sand, that it's not required?"

Yep, I already did. They don't need it. I gave them my addy and phone # already.
The USPS here, requires to see proof that I am shipping to an FFL or Manufacturer for repair.
I told the buyer to find someone else otherwise I won't ship the rifle.

 

[Rail Driver]

Make sure the buyer knows that you're willing to refund the purchase price if he can't or won't find another dealer to work through. (of course less a reasonable "hassle" fee, usually 10-15% of the total price including shipping)

 

[padd54]

I haven't recieved "payment" yet, we are making a trade.

 

[Bubbles]

You will have little if any luck getting a dealer to send a copy of his license to a non-FFL as the ATF IOI's have asked us to watch who gets copies of our license.

Sometimes I have problems getting dealers to send me a copy so I can ship them a gun, and I do hold an FFL.

 

[padd54]

You will have little if any luck getting a dealer to send a copy of his license to a non-FFL as the ATF IOI's have asked us to watch who gets copies of our license.

Sometimes I have problems getting dealers to send me a copy so I can ship them a gun, and I do hold an FFL.

Then I guess I won't be selling anymore rifles out of state.

 

[NavyLCDR]

The USPS here, requires to see proof that I am shipping to an FFL or Manufacturer for repair.

The local USPS does not get to set their own policies. They must abide by the Domestic Mail Manual. They are required to accept for mailing any item that meets the standards set forth in the Domestic Mail Manual. There are procedures in place to file a complaint with the Post Office if your local post office does not comply with the DMM.

 

[natman]

The local USPS does not get to set their own policies. They must abide by the Domestic Mail Manual. They are required to accept for mailing any item that meets the standards set forth in the Domestic Mail Manual. There are procedures in place to file a complaint with the Post Office if your local post office does not comply with the DMM.

From the USPS website:
http://pe.usps.gov/text/pub52/pub52c4_009.htm

"The mailer must comply with the Gun Control Act of 1968 and with state and local laws."

If the long gun is being mailed out of state, wouldn't it be reasonable for the postal clerk to ask to see the FFL to confirm that the GCA was indeed being followed?

 

[EOD Guy]

From the USPS website:
http://pe.usps.gov/text/pub52/pub52c4_009.htm

"The mailer must comply with the Gun Control Act of 1968 and with state and local laws."

If the long gun is being mailed out of state, wouldn't it be reasonable for the postal clerk to ask to see the FFL to confirm that the GCA was indeed being followed?

No. The Postal Regulations also state that a postmaster is not authorized to make determinations under the Gun Control Act.

 

[NavyLCDR]

If the long gun is being mailed out of state, wouldn't it be reasonable for the postal clerk to ask to see the FFL to confirm that the GCA was indeed being followed?

The local USPS Postmaster is supposed to operate in the same manner as the US justice system is supposed to operate. It is not the burden of the mailer to prove that their item is maileable. It is up to the Postmaster to prove that their item is not maileable.

http://pe.usps.com/search/jsp/searc...rytext=(gun<and>control<and>act)&dtype=2#hit0

8.10 Other Laws and Regulations
Particular matter may be mailable under postal statutes and regulations, but customers may have responsibilities under nonpostal statutes and regulations concerned with possession, treatment, transmission, or transfer of such matter (e.g., 49 CFR 100-185 (Department of Transportation Regulations); the Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act of 1970 (Public Law 91-513), 21 USC 801, et seq.; and the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), 18 USC 921, et seq.).

8.11 Refusal of Nonmailable Matter
USPS employees may refuse an article for mailing if the content of the article is described by the mailer or otherwise revealed to be nonmailable.

8.12 Authorizing Mailability
A postmaster may decide whether articles and substances other than written, printed, or graphic matter are nonmailable and, where appropriate, is authorized to refuse to accept for mailing such matter determined to be nonmailable. The mailer may seek a review of the postmaster�s decision by the PCSC. The mailer may file a written appeal of the PCSC ruling with the USPS Recorder, Judicial Officer, with a copy or description of the determination or ruling. The rules of procedure for the determination of such appeals are in 39 CFR 953.

Nowhere does the Domestic Mail Manual require a mailer to prove that the receipient holds an FFL. It is up to the Postmaster to prove the recipient does NOT hold an FFL. This is easily done by the postmaster by comparing the delivery address to the list of FFLs maintained by the ATF which I provided a link to in an earlier post.

The mailer should file an appeal as allowed under 8.12 when a local postmaster refuses to accept a maileable item, as it is this process which is the checks and balances to the local overstepping of authority.

 

[BSA1]

I have never had a post office clerk ask to see a copy of the FFL. I just walk in with the package, declare the contents and pays my money.

 

[bgr2014]

Me too. USPS works

 

[PCCUSNRET]

The FFL I had been using for 10 years quit doing transfers after my last purchase through him because the fellow I was buying from refused to send a copy of his drivers license. I can understand him wanting proof the seller was both old enough to sell the gun and that he was who he said he was. To me it is no different than asking to see my ID when I cash a check or use a credit card. I have since found another FFL that only charges me $15.00 to do a transfer (now I check to see if the seller has any problem providing a driver's license before I buy a gun). He will provide an individual a copy of his FFL if needed. I also just shipped 2 handguns to a FFL in GA through FedEx and I didn't need to show them a copy of a FFL. I just told the driver what was in the box and he thanked me for the business.

 

[Rockfish61]

Recently I went to the USPO to send my rifle to the MFR for repair. The postal clerk refused to send the item because I did not have an FFL. I asked to see the manager and he backed the clerk up. I promptly went to the post office in the next zip code and they promptly shipped the rifle without question. Go figure why the USPO is going broke!

 

[snubbies]

Hardnose

The Post Master in our area wants a copy of my FFL and the receivers FFL. I don't see a need to play "macho" and challenge him. If I do then the gun doesn't go that day. Since I ship many guns in a years time I don't see where it benefits me to play hardball. I hurts the buyer and myself.

 

[wristtwister]

We do firearms transfers all the time. We only accept transfers from other FFL's, so an individual has to take their gun to another FFL to send it to us. WE only send our FFL to another FFL dealer, never to individuals.

If you're shipping a firearm, we have to have the shipping address of the FFL, telephone numbers, and a fax number. The shipper has to bring us the shipping information, along with the information on who is actually receiving the firearm on the other end. We then fax a "transactional FFL" with that information written on the face of the FFL so that it's clear that it is only good for that one transaction. We include a description of the firearm, serial number, and (if bought from an auction) a copy of the transaction report.

The reason you need to ship to and from an FFL dealer, is that if your recipient is declined, then you're out of luck if your gun is now the property of a dealer. He can't ship it back to you, and unless the transaction takes place between FFL's, the gun simply becomes the property of the FFL that receives it... so if I shipped a gun to a dealer in Florida and the recipient was denied by the NICS center, as an individual, that dealer would then own my gun because they couldn't ship it back to me. As an FFL, they can return it to me, and I can then call the customer and after clearing the transaction through the NICS center, could return their gun to them. There would be fees involved, but dealer to dealer is the only way you can legally ship guns unless you're shipping a gun for repair or warranty work.

The exceptions allow shipments to C&R license holders, but only for C&R guns, and shipment back to manufacturers for repairs or warranty work. In case of repairs/warranty, it is a shipment between a factory repair service and the individual, and back... never to a "change of ownership" transaction. Yes, it's aggravating... yes, it's expensive... and yes, there is a possibility that you can lose your firearm unless you do it correctly.

WT

 

[atomchaser]

I don't know if I follow this. Wouldn't the firearm is still "belong" from the ATFs perspective, to the last individual it was transferred to? Why couldn't the receiving FFL be able send it back if it hasn't been transferred to someone else? How is it different from sending a firearm to a gunsmith for repair and having them return to the owner?

 

[mgkdrgn]

I don't know if I follow this. Wouldn't the firearm is still "belong" from the ATFs perspective, to the last individual it was transferred to? Why couldn't the receiving FFL be able send it back if it hasn't been transferred to someone else? How is it different from sending a firearm to a gunsmith for repair and having them return to the owner?

It's different because it =wasn't= being sent to a gunsmith for repair. Period. (don't have to make sense, just has to be the law)

The FFL doing the transfer =can not= ship the gun back to an individual.

 

[dogtown tom]

wristtwister....The reason you need to ship to and from an FFL dealer, is that if your recipient is declined, then you're out of luck if your gun is now the property of a dealer. He can't ship it back to you, and unless the transaction takes place between FFL's, the gun simply becomes the property of the FFL that receives it... so if I shipped a gun to a dealer in Florida and the recipient was denied by the NICS center, as an individual, that dealer would then own my gun because they couldn't ship it back to me. As an FFL, they can return it to me, and I can then call the customer and after clearing the transaction through the NICS center, could return their gun to them. There would be fees involved, but dealer to dealer is the only way you can legally ship guns unless you're shipping a gun for repair or warranty work.

Huh?
You might want to float that legal theory by an attorney....he'll enjoy the laugh.

This is not an uncommon problem and is easily handled. If the transferee is denied by NICS the firearm remains his property, he just cannot take possession. In no shape, manner or form in any state in this country does the firearm become "the property of the dealer" because the transferee was denied. The idea that it becomes the property of the dealer is ludicrous.

A week ago I had a transfer from Bud's to a customer. The customer was denied by NICS. There is no reason to return the gun to Bud's...it isn't theirs- they sold it.
Here is what I sent my customer:

If you decide to not submit an appeal of the FBI NICS denial or if the FBI denies the appeal, you have the following options on the disposition of the firearm:
1. You can list it for sale or auction with an online gun auction (such as GunBroker, Auction Arms or Guns America)
2. List it for sale at one of the many gun forums on the internet (AR15, The High Road, GlockTalk, etc)
3. Sell it to me at my wholesale cost.

Once sold, I will ship the firearm to the buyers FFL. The only fees I will need to collect are the $20 transfer fee + the actual shipping charges (no more than $30).
ATF prohibits “straw purchases”, so no local sales can be allowed. The firearm must be shipped to another licensed firearms dealer.

If I were to simply keep it with no compensation to the customer I would be guilty of conversion....a felony in most states.

 

[NavyLCDR]

The reason you need to ship to and from an FFL dealer, is that if your recipient is declined, then you're out of luck if your gun is now the property of a dealer. He can't ship it back to you, and unless the transaction takes place between FFL's, the gun simply becomes the property of the FFL that receives it... so if I shipped a gun to a dealer in Florida and the recipient was denied by the NICS center, as an individual, that dealer would then own my gun because they couldn't ship it back to me. As an FFL, they can return it to me, and I can then call the customer and after clearing the transaction through the NICS center, could return their gun to them. There would be fees involved, but dealer to dealer is the only way you can legally ship guns unless you're shipping a gun for repair or warranty work.

Sooo, how many people's guns have you stolen this way? Buyer buys a gun from a seller. The buyer now owns the gun. PERIOD. He may not be able to take possession of the gun, but the buyer still OWNS the gun. Unless there is a contractual agreement for the FFL to operate as an agent of the buyer or seller, with the funds for the SALE going through the FFL, the FFL is ONLY a transfer agent. The gun is never sold to the FFL, nor is the FFL ever the owner of the gun. The FFL simply cannot transfer POSSESSION of the firearm to the new OWNER.

Now, after a certain length of time, without you being able to transfer that firearm to anybody, you could certainly file for a court order to make you the owner of the gun... just like an auto repair place can claim ownership of vehicles left with them after a certain period of time, or storage rental units. But the transfer of ownership must be by an act of law or order of a court, not simply failure of a NICS check.