Shipment of a rifle without ffl

[PCCUSNRET]

I would never sell a gun to someone that used a FFL that required I ship to them from my FFL. What a waste of money. Anyone trying to buy a gun should know if it is legal for them to purchase a gun. If they don't, sorry the gun no longer belongs to me. If his FFL keeps the gun that is entirely between his FFL and the buyer. If the buyer agreed to pay my FFL's fees and return shipping costs I might take the gun back.

 

[natman]

WE only send our FFL to another FFL dealer, never to individuals.

Why?

The reason you need to ship to and from an FFL dealer, is that if your recipient is declined, then you're out of luck if your gun is now the property of a dealer. He can't ship it back to you, and unless the transaction takes place between FFL's, the gun simply becomes the property of the FFL that receives it... so if I shipped a gun to a dealer in Florida and the recipient was denied by the NICS center, as an individual, that dealer would then own my gun because they couldn't ship it back to me. As an FFL, they can return it to me, and I can then call the customer and after clearing the transaction through the NICS center, could return their gun to them. There would be fees involved, but dealer to dealer is the only way you can legally ship guns unless you're shipping a gun for repair or warranty work.

I agree that if a transfer buyer can't take delivery it presents a problem, but it is easily solved.

If the buyer is declined it's still his gun. If he can't or won't appeal being declined, the THE BUYER has to decide what to do with HIS gun that he can't take delivery on. Sell it to the dealer, sell it on auction, sell it via classified ad, whatever, but it's not the seller's problem, nor should the gun be returned to him. Nor is the gun in any way the dealer's property.

If the buyer decides to reject the gun after inspection, then the gun will have to be returned to an FFL in the seller's state. How the shipping costs and fees are handled should be part of the terms of the sale.

Gun laws are complicated and burdensome enough. There's no excuse for making things worse.

 

[AirForceShooter]

This is why I ONLY do FTF without paperwork when I sell or buy.


So much simpler.

AFS

 

[medalguy]

Ummm.... unjust enrichment comes to mind.

 

[BSA1]

This is very interesting. I can ship and recieve a firearm for repair/exchange/etc. to the manufacturer and the manufacturer can return it to me without me being a ffl holder. I would assume the manufacturer has a ffl.

Now I ship a gun to a ffl holder for sale/change of ownership. For some reason the sale does not go through. Since I have already recieved payment for the gun who does it belong to? Not me, I already have cashed the check. FFL holder? The buyer who for some reason cannot take possession of the gun?

If I agree to take the gun back I fail to see why it cannot be returned directly to me per the first paragraph. Or is this a situation where the dealer that has the gun charges a fee to me (and refuses to ship the gun til he gets more money) and of course my ffl charges a fee.....

Since a sale never occurred I don't see why the gun would had to be entered in the firearms log.


It is the buyer who is sol.
Sadly a ffl is not proof of honesty.

 

[NavyLCDR]

BSA1,

The answer is in 27 CFR 478.124:

§ 478.124 Firearms transaction record.
(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
or licensed dealer shall not sell or
otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently,
of any firearm to any person, other
than another licensee, unless the licensee
records the transaction on a firearms
transaction record, Form 4473: Provided,
That a firearms transaction record, Form
4473, shall not be required to record the
disposition made of a firearm delivered to
a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or
customizing when such firearm or a replacement
firearm is returned to the person
from whom received.

When a dealer or manufacturer receives a gun from ANYONE for ANY REASON, they must log the firearm into their bound, unless they are going to have that firearm only for repair while the customer waits. To subsequently transfer the firearm out, they must do a form 4473, except for return of a firearm that they received for the sole purpose of repair or customization. Part of doing the form 4473 is the entire section that the recipient of the firearm completes and signs AND verification of the identity of the recipient with a government issued identification document.

When a person buys a gun, the SALE of the gun is a transaction between the seller and the purchaser. PERIOD. No other parties are involved in the actual SALE transaction. The fact that the buyer cannot legally possess the gun is a problem that solely rests with the buyer. Once the gun stays at the FFL's business long enough, the FFL can make a legal claim to ownership of the gun and then, after that claim is adjudicated, the dealer owns the gun.

 

[natman]

This is very interesting. I can ship and recieve a firearm for repair/exchange/etc. to the manufacturer and the manufacturer can return it to me without me being a ffl holder. I would assume the manufacturer has a ffl.

Now I ship a gun to a ffl holder for sale/change of ownership. For some reason the sale does not go through. Since I have already recieved payment for the gun who does it belong to? Not me, I already have cashed the check. FFL holder? The buyer who for some reason cannot take possession of the gun?

If I agree to take the gun back I fail to see why it cannot be returned directly to me per the first paragraph. Or is this a situation where the dealer that has the gun charges a fee to me (and refuses to ship the gun til he gets more money) and of course my ffl charges a fee.....

Since a sale never occurred I don't see why the gun would had to be entered in the firearms log.


It is the buyer who is sol.
Sadly a ffl is not proof of honesty.

There are two parts to a transaction - the sale and the transfer. The sale is completed once the cash changes hands, pending any pre-existing conditions to the contrary. The transfer OTOH depends on the buyer passing NICS. If he doesn't and the condition is permanent, then it puts the buyer in an awkward position - he owns the gun but he can't take possession of it. The way out would be for the FFL to keep the gun temporarily until the buyer can dispose of the gun without taking possession via auction/classified/dealer sale. The notion that it somehow instantly becomes the dealer's property is flat out wrong.

If there were any sort of consistent logic involved, you could return a gun directly to the seller if he were agreeable. It makes no sense at all that you can send a gun to an FFL for repair and have it sent directly back to the seller, but you can't send a gun for inspection by a buyer and have it sent directly back. But if you follow gun law long enough you soon realize that normal logic and common sense don't always apply - gun laws follow their own logic.

The gun has to be entered into the log when the dealer has it in his custody for any reason - repair, transfer, put into stock - it doesn't matter it has to go into the log.

 

[BSA1]

What about another family member, say his wife, takes possession since she passes the smell test. Would this be a straw purchase? It sounds like it but what as the seller I call the ffl holder and tell him the wife is the buyer? If the check have both husband and wifes name on who is to say otherwise?

Being a retired state berauacrat a phone call to the batf who probably be the best step to take. Usually you will get the answer you want if you dig deep enough.

Regardless the buyer is in a pickle and the dealer isn't going to fare any better if he tries to resell it (theft by deception).

 

[Bubbles]

What about another family member, say his wife, takes possession since she passes the smell test. Would this be a straw purchase?

Big time. I don't know of any dealers who would be cool with that one.

Our policy gives transferees/buyers two choices if they fail NICS - either arrange to have the gun shipped back to the seller (and they're paying for shipping), or we will consign the gun, sell it, and pay them for the gun less our consignment fees.

 

[BSA1]

Hadn't thought about consignment sale. This probably makes the most sense.